DIY Guns

Sort of. Some of it's the usual media scaremongering, "ZOMG YOU CAN PRINT ASSAULT RIFLES." The only part he made of the rifle was the lower, not the barrel or chamber or anything.

It's an awesome step up in technology (I posted about it elsewhere, myself) -- but I hate how sensational some of the media coverage has been.

Isn't that par for the course, though? Media's done that kind of crap for years.

The thing I see (which the media totally ignores, of course), is that some parts of an AR can't be ABS plastic. They need to be metal and/or ceramic to withstand the heat (like the barrel and chamber) or repeated wear (like the hammer). The .22 pistol going for over 200 rounds is pretty cool, though.

Admittedly, they may have over simplified, but the story seems to say he made parts of the assault rifle and the entire .22 pistol from the printer.

That is astounding to me, if true, and I've been tracking 3d printer technology for 6 years or so, since I first heard of it. (In a story about printing organs, oddly enough. Different medium than plastic, obviously.)

So, yeah, anyone being able to make a .22 pistol in their basement by using commercially available technology will change a whole lot of social/legal dynamics. It makes gun control laws and weapons licensing... problematic.

And being able to fire 200 shells through the pistol... that's not a flimsy zip gun. That's a real weapon. (Interested in what it fires, though. Standard .22 or rimfire cartridges?)

And if you're looking to outfit some kind of rebellion... grab plastic, shred it, make guns. Yeowsh.

Interesting times.

Revolution? No, definitly not.
Sucks a bit more to be a police officer? Yeah, thats true.

Depending on who you ask, like the USA's ATF, the lower IS the gun.



-k

.... perhaps all of the pistol except the barrel, bolt, and firing pin (you know, the really important bits. But there's no way a 3D-printer-able plastic is going to stand up to even the comparatively-"meager" pressures of a .22 short. Just. No. Way.


Gimme a machine shop, a library card, and enough metals to practise on and I won't just be making .22 pistols, I'll be making Thompson SMGs. Complete with drum magazines, too.

...

And yes, allthe parts that used to be wood, I'll probably make out of plastic. With a 3D printer. Because I suck at woodworking.

The whole "plastic don't work for guns" is irrelevant anyway since 3D printers that can print in metal already exist. From what I gather they fire small particles that stick together then they run a charge through it that fuses it together into a solid piece.

@Shortstraw
Yeah, but the point is, that with a CnC you will be much faster... And those printers are REALLY expensive and use up some energy...

Depends on the type of printer.

Most (for metal, anyway) use a bed of fine grained particles and use lasers to heat up the desired sections to near-melting point to fuse them together. The extra is used to support the object as it's constructed.

It's called sintering.

Does the end product have the same strength as a solid piece of metal?

"Strength" is hard to define in such broad terms, as metal will have varying stress capabilities depending on how it's forged (compare cast iron and a samurai sword).

To the specifics of your question, I have no idea. According to the wikipedia article on sintering, possibly. "[Sintering has the] capability to fabricate high strength material like turbines."

My Grandfather was a Master Tool and Dye maker who taught at a high school back home.

I asked him how many dangerous things he could make in shop: "Everything." was his one-word answer.

The right tools, a supply of materials, a little knowledge...and you can make just about anything.

(My uncle is a woodworker, and he's done some things that his teachers told him wouldn't be possible).

Yep. Exactly my point.

(By the way, he was a Master Tool and Die maker; "dye" is what you use to color things like cloth ...)

I know that.

Wrote that before my nap. See what happens when you get a tired writer?

Did he also make dyes? Because that would have been awesome.





You know, I think it's just hit me... Perhaps this is (or played a part in) the reason why American high schools stopped teaching trades? So as to render homemade weapons a virtual impossibility for most people?



On the topic of the 3d printed weapon... That sounds interesting. It's rather obvious that you can make a gun's non-firing components with this process. Hell, that's nothing new, a skilled woodworker can do the same, or basically anyone capable of taking plans from paper and turning it into a 3d object which will stand up to the basic requirements of being roughly handled and maintaining its integrity whilst doing so.

Where I see this becoming interesting is in the gunsmith's craft; you could readily, rapidly prototype a number of different furniture for a weapon. play around with what you get until you have something that perfectly fits the person who's going to own it, whether that's yourself or a customer. Potentially, you could make a gun look like something other than a gun, or make a gun look like a different gun, or just make a gun look hella tacticool.

Without going into the sintering build-with-metal versions, I wonder if it's possible to make a magazine from this kind of stuff? Even if you just have to add the springs yourself, is there anything particularly stopping you from designing a magazine out of this kind of material that will properly engage and disengage from a firearm's magazine well? Would be a pretty simple way to bypass laws that limit legal magazine size. "Simple" not meaning "cheap" or "practical for most," of course, but once you have the kit, it would be pretty simple.


As for the .22 he claims to have made entirely out of the 3d printing material, I wouldn't really doubt it would be possible for a gunsmith playing around with this technology to fabricate a .22 rimfire pistol with a breach-loading mechanism. I'd think the hardest part would be getting a hammer to strike the round hard enough to set it off; though he might have rigged up some kind of electrical firing mechanism somehow; or maybe these things can actually produce reasonably strong springing mechanisms.



And yeah, this kind of weapon wouldn't be any good for battle, especially, obviously, if it was a .22. What it could potentially be useful for is to make something like the Liberator pistol dropped on France in bulk in WWII. Sure, a .22 doesn't have the killing power of a .45, but assuming you couldn't scale it up to something similar, you could work around that (if you were devious and murderous) by making a .22 pepperbox that would shoot a small smorgasbord of lead into someone, up-close and personal.

And of course, you could make this kind of thing a holdout. The tiniest weapon in the right (wrong) place makes a world more difference than a massive gun back at home.

Possibly, I wouldn't put it past him, but I doubt it.More likely just more budget cuts. Shop is an expensive class to teach because of the materials used.I was thinking more of the Sten Guns and M3-Series "Grease Guns" of WWII, which had most of the parts made from pressed sheet metal in lamp and toy factories. "Made for $5, feels like it was made for $3." is one quote I remember from somewhere.

Sten-IIs were dropped all over France as well, and IIRC, they could be modified (or were designed to) use MP-40 magazines. They were in 9mm Parabellum, so they could certainly use captured German ammo. The M3 had a modification kit for 9mm to convert in the field, but I never heard of any references of it being used (Although it does show up in Fallout: New Vegas.).

Honestly, using ballistic plastic for furniture doesn't scare me. As a lot of folks here have pointed out, you need gunmetal and metal shop equipment for the actual parts that are necessary for a firearm to be a FIREARM. As also pointed out, those aren't hard to find, it's the skill of a person to use that equipment and materials that can be.

Unless, of course, those metal-printing ones can make metal that can hold up to repeated use...

And get cheap enough for public purchase.

So far, it's only the plastic models that are affordable.

Then again, a criminal organization that wanted to make "Saturday Night Specials" or "Streetline Specials" could certainly benefit from these...

Really, all you need is for it to hold up for the 50 or so rounds you'll be firing with it. Then you can either ditch it (it has no identifying marks after all) or grind it down and use it as the raw material to resinter a new one.

It's certainly going to be fun for the police when every gun becomes one use only and gets ground up to make a new one after use.

You mean *gasp* we might actually have to explore new ways of addressing violence than just punishing offenders after the fact?

That and it makes gun control laws kinda pointless.

I...I've created a monster!

.... instead, they'll keep going with more and more draconian information control laws.

I'd be locked up in an instant.

Well, the point is how far in the futur you are looking...
If you end up with replicators(StarTrek) the next day, yeah that would be a problem.

Sure it is annoying to have guns floating around without serial number. On the other hand it is not that hard to remove a serial number.

If you take a look at the "gun" in question I guess you will be able to determin what model of printer was used. So this narrows it down.
But the major issue is productivity and costs. 3D Printers are not really the thing for mass production.

Gun control becomes an issue if you drop a lot of "good" guns (in the sense of dangerous) for a low price.
For example: I got an contract from the US Government to produce M16 rifles. Now my production line is still standing and I just produce a bunch of those more and push them on the market for a low price. (For example I got a lot of raw materials still to use)

The point is not some nerd building a small 22 rifle or handgun, which takes him probably several days. (Programming the printer, printing it and then finding and replacing some parts with metal once) (Of course thats not helping the guy beeing shot at with it. Thats why I said it is bad for the police to some extend)

It gets a problem if producer for example could just send gunparts without restriction. (But here again, the laser printer would not be the problem)

I mean it seems to me a bit silly to worry about a plastic (mostly inferior plastic in those printers) .22 if there are assault rifles sold to drug cartels and gangs per kilo.

To track them in this kind of environment, you'll need some kind of tracking system built into eithe rthe printer or the material itself. The printer's the irreplacable part of the equasion, so, I'd assume the work would go there, similar to the marking that today's printers put on any document that they make. Invisible to normal detection, but if you know what to do, ping, the item reveals that it was made by Printer XYZ. Kick on the Matrix, find the location of Printer XYZ, and bingo.

And any shadowrunner worthy of the name will know a guy who can doctor the printer, or can do it themselves.

Plus, it's just kind of cool.

Stereotypical Shadowrunner to stereotypical Fixer:

"I need a virgin Ares Predator." ("Virgin" = never been used in a crime. Also, no Serial Number.)

"I can get a spit-polished one for 5x normal cost. Or..." ("Spit-polished" = Serial Number burned off, barrel scored to prevent ballistics matches.)

"Yes?"

"Here's a printed knockoff, for half the cost of a regular Predator. It only shoots 50 rounds before breaking, but it can never be traced to anyone. Bring it back, and you get a 5% discount on your next purchase."

Disposable/recyclable guns, printed/sintered in a basement from illicit CAD files, sold to criminals who need untraceable firearms.

That's the kind of criminal flair a true Shadowrun adventure needs. Bad people doing bad things with technology intended for wholly different uses.

I must confess, I like the idea.

Why am I reminded of the "Pistol Rental" in Neuromancer now?

Not really. There are already 3D printers out there, that can produce most of the components needed to assemble another printer, of the exact same design.

Shadowrun accounts for that difficulty by the mechanism of nanomachine RFID tags embedded into the feedstock itself; sure, you can acquire tag-free feedstock, and you can even do it through black-market channels. But doing so is prohibitively expensive ... thus deterring your garden-variety liquor-store-holdup thug from even entertaining the fantasy of using such weapons.


Yet. The key word which you forgot to include is yet.


Programming is a once-only hurdle. Once you have the design, and know it works ... you just need to automate the process of removing finished components, and resupplying the printer with expended consumables.


The worry that people have, is that this is just the earliest, most primitive beginnings.

If metal-based "sintering" can be advanced to the point of producing the necessary metal components, perhaps including those for the casings themselves? Combined with cheaper plastics-based production of the "furniture" elements of a firearm, well, then things get ... "interesting", in the chinese proverbial sense.

Perhaps you noticed my post upthread, where I said that - despite no prior experience - I could have a (small capacity) mass production operation turning out WW2-technology SMGs? At the time, I thought it would take a machine shop. Now, having read about the metal 3D printers ... no, it wouldn't even take that much. Just enough money to buy the right machines, and a reliable supply chain to provide the necessary materials.

Mark my words: if gun control laws ever get effective enough to drive the price of traditionally-manufactured firearms out of the reach of criminals? They will find alternate means to acquire what they feel they need. That's inevitable.

So do I.

How does this affect Shadowrun?

In England and Tir nAn Og, places with hardcore gun laws, you can't get regular guns. You get printed ones. Mission: smuggle a printer into those places, for a criminal syndicate.

Steal CAD plans for a new prototype. Another corp wants them or infoterrorists want to open-source them.

Sneak into a syndicate's "factory" (think Breaking Bad's lab underneath the cleaners) and substitute a flawed CAD file for their regular one. Now its weapons explode when used.

Other variations will probably occur.

Is 1/10th the cost by the power of chemistry.

Not necessarily.

Chemistry is just that - chemistry. Not alchemy. If your design for something calls for feedstock that is a blend of tungsten, molybdenum, chromium, and iron ... you can't just buy a bunch of home cleaners and such from the local Stuffer Shack, and expect to come up with those elements.

Nanofax feedstock is not that easy to manufacture. If it were, the books wouldn't go on and on about how the corporations manage to control the availability of feedstocks. Cheap knock-offs would be just a stuffershack away ...

@_Pax._
I said, it changes as soon as you get to the replicator technology displayed in StarTrek. (If you get this effect with Nanobots or whatever, does not really matter)

The point is, if you sinter every freaking bullet, it gets just annoying. You are using a very complex and expensive machine to produce a very simple form over and over again.


The point is, that those ways will be (like I said not calculating with the StarTrek technology) very expensive. That means the enforcement of the law would need to be really, really though. This would further emply, that beeing a criminal would be really, really, really though.

The problem with gun laws in general is, that there are loopholes. You do not need to think that big. I mean give somebody 50 bucks to go and buy you a gun.
True, if the laws go stricter, that ally will close. Nobody goes through a jungle of paperwork and the possibility of criminal charges for 50 bucks.
So you might approach the salesperson directly (aka as bribe). You may forge some papers and so on. Then of course not everybody beeing part of an criminal organisation needs to
have a record. So they just might buy some guns...
Then of course if the paperwork to sell guns gets more, the margin on selling guns gets smaller. So the producers will explore loopholes or "grey to dark" areas to bring their guns to the market.

So I agree, strict gunlaws make it harder for criminals to get guns. My point is only that those laws would need to be extremly strict and well enforced in order to make them produce their own guns. (Because it is not like you can't track that equipment)

So the equipment you would need to produce guns would need to be easy to come by and the gun laws would need to be strict enough to justify it but not strict enough to force the criminals to explore different avenues of profit.
To come back to the first point: Unless those printers really improve in a nearly fantastical way, the window for this development is pretty small.

Building edged weapons at home as been done since the first tool-using Homo species, yet there are still laws for what you can carry or buy


And soething probably relevant for this discussion: https://www.eff.org/issues/printers

While true, you can burn out any RFID tags in it with a 100 device.

The point in the matter is, that it is quite hard to come by high tech stuff in general, as long as it is not common use.
3D Printers cost around 100.000 Dollars (the good).
Those which can work with metal probably go in the millions.
Yeah, thats a small price to get a prototype cheaper and faster thinking in the big scale. (Starting your production maybe 3 month faster... for each of your products... for around 10 to 20 years....)

For some guy who just wants to rob the store next door...

For me, the point is no crazy 1/10 price, Draco18s. How is 3D printing even Chemistry at all?

The question concerning chemistry is about the foodstock for those nanites.

Not if they are Security Tags.
And you can damn well bet that the tags in Nano-Feedstock are Security Tags.

It isn't... It is likely Industrial Mechanics, or Armorer. I would go with Industrial Mechanics.

just means you need a stronger device! Pass a strong enough magnetic field over any conductor and you will melt it to slag.

Did I say it was?

Hermetic Magicians are working on that.

The post you were responding to did, Draco18s. I felt you missed the point when you made it about tags.

I disagree, Irion. A blend of powdered metals for using in a nanofax doesn't sound at all similar to normal uses of Chemistry in SR4. If I made an Arnold Palmer, I wouldn't pay 1/10 the cost of the tea and lemonade just because I mixed them.

CONTEXT.

Yes, I know. While true, I felt your point was unrelated. *For me*, the point is that you're not getting 1/10 price, because it's not even Chemistry at all. Given that they were talking about Chemistry and the 1/10 price, this seemed relevant. This has nothing to do with where you're getting the feedstocks or their being tagged.