Help me choose my primary weapon. Options

[Umidori]

Yes, yes, they get a soak for every grouping of 10.

The point is no Light Pistol should ever be doing anywhere near that amount of damage. It's just absurd.

~Umi

[Dakka Dakka]

The point is no Light Pistol should ever be doing anywhere near that amount of damage. It's just absurd.

About as absurd as LAWs that do not hit the broad side of a barn and guided missiles being outperformed by technology that IRL has been abandoned between WWI and WWII.

[Umidori]

How often do LAWs and guided missiles appear in YOUR games? Meanwhile, pistols are all but universal.

~Umi

[CanRay]

How often do LAWs and guided missiles appear in YOUR games? Meanwhile, pistols are all but universal.

~Umi

Considering my group, it's only a matter of time for them to piss off the Metroplex Guard.

[Udoshi]

How often do LAWs and guided missiles appear in YOUR games? Meanwhile, pistols are all but universal.

~Umi

We had one runner who kept a LAW in his car. Whichever availability 12 one is in the main book. I don't even think it was loaded or anything, just backwards-ly modded into being a drone so it had a Sensor rating and Radar.

He called it "The magic wand that makes vehicles go away".
When it came up, most people weren't willing to find out if the Missile Lock that their car's sensors were screaming at them about was real or not.

[Draco18s]

He called it "The magic wand that makes vehicles go away".
When it came up, most people weren't willing to find out if the Missile Lock that their car's sensors were screaming at them about was real or not.

Yoink.

[Udoshi]

okay, here's what you need to do.

Smartlink mod it, in order to qualify pilot upgrade 1. It now counts as a vehicle, and while it doesn't get vehicle modslots, it gets all the other side benefits.
Specifically, its Sensor rating reduces Scatter as normal.
It also gets a vehicle sensor bay appropriate for its size. That should be a Small Drone with 5 capacity, so just throw a Radar System on there and you're good to go. Cheapest one's 500, i think.

[Falconer]

This is incorrect Udoshi.... the LAW is a single shot rocket launcher. You're not modding the rocket you're modding it's single shot launch tube. If you took any other rocket launcher you'd be doing the same thing, just this launcher is designed to be cheap and disposable. If you want a drone missile, look at the heimdall drones.

So effectively you've made a one shot rocket launcher which is a drone. Which does nothing by RAW for the rocket it fires! You haven't made a missile, it's still an unguided rocket.


Rockets don't benefit from guidance even if the launcher has it last I checked. Only missiles use the higher of the missiles sensor rating or the launching vehicles rating. The best you can do is use the vehicles sensors to do active targetting for an attack pool bonus last I checked even on the unguided rockets. (missiles could get this AND the sensor rating of it's firing platform added to it's attack).



Here's another idea I was sort of brainstorming. Put an underbarrel laser designator (+$300) on the launcher. Add an airburst link as well to reduce scatter. Don't know if the underbarrel weapon benefits from the smartgun or not... but it should I'd think (if not build the smartgun into the laser as well... it's cheap).

A seeker head on the rocket is only +2F more to the availability and +$500.

First simple action, shoot the target with the laser... maybe even including called shots since the laser is pretty direct fire. Second simple action, fire the seeker rocket (+2 smartgun, -2 designator aimed offseting). Add any net successes from the laser designator to the attack pool. If scatter (aided by airburst) is reduced to 0 it hits spot on.

What's fun is you could even take the launcher, turn it into a drone with a higher sensor rating (6 of course :)), then buy cheap +1 sensor missiles with seeking heads. (+500, +500, +7F avail to the rocket). Active sensor targetting aids vehicle gunnery skill based attacks, don't know if it'd help someone using agility + heavy weapons... but lets just say it does. That's one source of bonus dice, +sensor rating, +target designating net hits... airburst to reduce scatter... pretty good chance of slugging the target with a direct hit to increase damage.


Alternatively you could turn drones into missiles/flying IEDs, simply by using the special cargo/equipment modification and adding a warhead. Some drones don't even need that.... Example cheap cruise missile....

Ares Air Supply... body 6... VTOL flying. (Redball Express from Rigger 3 and earlier!).
155kg payload. With 6 mod slots... tons of options (sat com, 18 armor upgrade, signature masking, camo system, etc.)

But the simplest is probably just 3600 for 18 armor rating.
10850 for 155kg of ANFO (rating 3 explosive 70 per kg).

Blast DV of 37 (sqrt(155)*3))==DV. Demolitions and IED bits could be used to enhance that. Simply fly it into close to the target and let the fun begin :).

Or you could just fill the cargo bay with as many HE/frag grenades as you can fit and use the +50% damage for overlapping blast zones.... The war silliness doesn't scale well past a two grenades I admit, but those are the rules.


You see where I'm going though I hope... smaller flying drones could easily pack bigger warheads. 2 HE grenades duct taped together, and wired to explode together is a rating 18 explosion with a -3/m falloff.

[Udoshi]

So effectively you've made a one shot rocket launcher which is a drone. Which does nothing by RAW for the rocket it fires!

I'll refer you to the table in 4a 325 - you can buy any rocket as a Missile by throwing money at it.
Also, you can use the vehicle's sensor instead of the missile's.

But you're also missing the point. Its not to be EFFECTIVE.
Its to make a lock-on missile launcher in order to scare the crap out of people.


Also, for your laser-spotter idea, you should consider throwing an Agent into the mix. with Command, a Targeting autosoft, 3 extra actions per Combat Turn, and the ability to connect to the smartgun from your Commlink - it can autospot targets for you. Its fairly cheap for what it does, too. Also consider direct fire grenades, on page 140 of War! Not really relevant for missiles, unless your GM decides that they should apply for other contact-detonation explosives.

[Falconer]

Actually sorta yes... any missile is a rocket with a sensor package built-in. You can buy missiles INSTEAD OF rockets, which is the point of the chart.

But the LAW is a wierd case... why... because the LAW rocket doesn't do normal anti-vehicle damage and it's cheap. Because it's a non-reloadable launcher + anti-vehicle rocket all in one. It's technically not just a rocket to buy it's a single use complete package. I'd say you couldn't even unload it and use it in a normal launcher (if it was full size it'd do full size damage instead of it's weakened damage).


As for the last. No you can't use an agent, only PILOT programs can run autosofts (pilots are effectively specialized agents + system to begin with). The drone upgrade to the launcher accomplishes that though :). Agents are limited to ewar, cybercombat, & hacking, they can't do dick with sensors because they can't run a clearsight autosoft. (targetting autosoft has nothing to do with this. sensor lock-ons are done with sensors which use 'clearsight').

And further to the point... how are these people supposed to know that the sensor lock on is from a missile and not the vehicle?! I can technically lock a target using a completely unarmed scoot (the troll on top is the weapons payload :)). So using that standard... I can pull out a stock cheap LAW rocket... then use the vehicle sensor to lock the target while brandishing the rocket. It's just as much of a bluff as what you're doing. Also I don't buy that people automatically know that their vehicle has been locked by any kind of sensor suite. I'm all for threat warning recievers as appropriate, but I don't see that as a standard feature on a Rover 2068 or GAZ 170.

[Udoshi]

As for the last. No you can't use an agent, only PILOT programs can run autosofts (pilots are effectively specialized agents + system to begin with). The drone upgrade to the launcher accomplishes that though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . Agents are limited to ewar, cybercombat, & hacking, they can't do dick with sensors because they can't run a clearsight autosoft.

Yeah, you're flat out wrong here. Agents run autosofts just fine. In fact, they NEED an Electronic Warfare autosoft to do any real heavy lifting with hacking since its a skill they can't use Pilot for. (this is in part due to a 4A change that shifted some matrix actions around so the EW skill was actually useful - formerly decryption was response+ hacking i believe)
There is alo a section in unwired specifically for that, and it also happens to say that "Agent autosofts follow the same rules for cost and programming as drone autosofts."

[Modular Man]

Wasn't this about pistols to begin with?
Anyhow, did anybody mention the built-in sound suppressor of the Slivergun? That's why I like it as a "legal carry permit" weapon (mods tend to attract raised eyebrows if spotted).
It's also one of those few pistols that can, with the right mods, pull of fully silenced suppressive fire that is damn hard to notice otherwise, thanks to the ammo capacity. I don't know of any other pistol that can do such a thing.

[Udoshi]

What sort of mods do you use to do that?

[Falconer]

No Udoshi, you have this plain wrong... the section you're referring to is on p113. And it doesn't contradict anything in SR4a p246 either which clearly states that drone autosofts only work with Pilot programs (not Agents). I have no clue where you're pulling any of this from. Unwired introduced new Agent only autosofts, it didn't give them access to drone autosofts.


Pilot programs take the place of attributes while they can use drone autosofts to take the place of skills. EG: Pilot + SkillAutosoft. (in this case clearsight... since sensors are perception tests). The pilot program replaces the attribute that would normally be used. If you were trying to jam or similar.. the Electronic Warfare autosoft takes the place of the relevant skill.


Matrix Agents are the exact opposite, they replace the skill for use with the software loaded into them (or also loaded into the persona). The agent's rating is it's Computer, Cybercombat, Data Search, and Hacking skill. (yes EWar is missing... agent's don't deal with the real world they're matrix specialists). Drones and their pilots are different and designed to interpret the real world.


So once you droned your weapon... you'd load the DRONE autosoft into that weapon... then you would issue a command to the drone's pilot to lock targets for you. Drone pilot programs function as agents and can be issued commands which interact with the real world using their special autosofts. Not all software runs on all devices.

[Udoshi]

The point you're missing is that if agent autosofts follow the exact same rules to make as pilot autosofts, then you can make agent versions of pilot autosofts. And if you can make it, you can buy it.
Also, don't you think its dumb that a MATRIX SPECIALIST CANT HACK NODES BECAUSE THEY CAN'T DECRYPT THEM? Agents without Electronic Warfare Autosoft are probably going to be unable to hack past basic consumer grade encryption, even defaulting to decrypt-1.
Also, how do you explain sprites, who are resonance agent equivalents, being able to run autosofts? Also note that Pilot Programs, Agents and Sprites ALL have Pilot Ratings.


Also, pretty much all software can run on any device. 4a is pretty much universally compatable. An agent can run on anything with a processor limit. You can install specialized pilots on any device you want(the faq addresses this specifically), though its not often a good idea.
The only thing remotely challenging this is peripheral node rules, introduced in unwired, which is still pretty much overridden by the Common Use category of software.

[Falconer]

Programs dont' run anywhere. Some software runs only on drones. Other software runs only on specialized peripherals (such as simsense recordings are run on a simsense module). All peripherals require specialized systems and programs written specifically for them. Also because they have a pilot rating, doesn't mean they're a pilot program.

Software cannot run on anything. Some things they need to be specially written for. So no running a general use commlink agent on your smartgun for example.

Some things like spoof commands can only affect peripheral and drones as well. So being able to run drone autosofts isn't completely without hassles.

Others like decrypt aren't as bad as you make it out to be... decrypt -1 can still make the extended test to break encryption. I see your point as regards it though. I can see a non-drone specialty autosoft being written, yes.

Sprites aren't agents. Not by a long shot, they have sapience of their own as well as their own skills including some with ewar. You also play fast and lose with the autosoft bits as those are specific to machine sprites, the ones custom made to interface with *drumroll* drones and peripheral nodes.

[Udoshi]

Programs dont' run anywhere. Some software runs only on drones. Other software runs only on specialized peripherals (such as simsense recordings are run on a simsense module).

You're mistaking a hardware requirement for a software requirement. Yes, you need speakers to play music.

The Run Program actions doesn't care about any such restrictions - only Loaded, Running and Processor Limit - a function of System which literally anything with a Device Rating has.

Literally any piece of "modern"(in the shadowrun sense) electronics can run any kind of software. It may not be GOOD at it, or have the hardware to make full use of the software (a tacnet on a tamagotchi is not gonna be all that effective), but it can RUN it.

My point is that you're creating artificial limitations on the system that don't actually exist. Common sense does that, but it has no place on the matrix because its such a dumb system.

I see your point as regards it though. I can see a non-drone specialty autosoft being written, yes.

I'm willing to concede the point that you may not be able to crossload the same exact copy of a program to both an agent AND a pilot - since there does seem to be definite rules ambiguity in exactly how it works(this is Question For Your GM Territory anyway), but either way it should be pretty easy to get the autosofts you want for agents, even if it means paying for the same program twice - but that's how it works already, before you deal with the mess of rules that is copy protection.

[Falconer]

Only Pilot programs may make use of drone autosofts. Even unwired keeps the distinction between agent autosofts and drone autosofts.

And the limitation on peripheral nodes is explicit. Unwired Page 48.
"They are only able to run a single persona and can only run programs they are designed to use"


You could make your commlink's OS specifically a pilot program OS (haha, that would even save one program against the processor limit since your agent is the system!... limited to rating 4, but those are the ropes). You could carry a microdrone on you with a pilot specifically to scan for nodes and break encryption. But I see the limitation on agents as a feature not a problem... because one of the biggest complaints was that anyone could be a hacker just by having a good agent! Now you need a bit more than merely a good agent.

[Udoshi]

While unwired keeps the distinction between autosoft type, it also gives you a way around it - which i think we just agreed on, so I'm going to leave it at that.

And the limitation on peripheral nodes is explicit. Unwired Page 48.
"They are only able to run a single persona and can only run programs they are designed to use"

This doesn't apply to any game not running Unwired, though. Or to any device which ISN'T a peripheral node.
Clustering also produces a node that doesn't have the peripheral tag - its just a node.

Its a pretty easy restriction to get around(just use a commlink!), doesn't apply to games in which the GM doesn't want to deal with Slotting Unwired, AND doesn't change the basic rules for how NON-peripheral nodes work anyway.

[Falconer]

No we don't agree. I simply said I can see the problem you're listing, and I also said I see it as something of a feature as well as it stops a good agent from replacing a ton of skill points to actually make a hacker. It keeps an agent as a great tool to support a hacker or rigger without being able to replace one on it's own.

I also pointed out by RAW you don't need an agent to run the clearsight to lock-on. I don't even know why you're bringing ewar into this. It's not relevent to a (sensor + clearsight) check to lock targets using a drone or vehicles sensor suite.


As for the rest, most people I see, use unwired. Though rarely see things like clustered peripherals (probably because most GM's I see enforce if you do this the peripherals stop functioning as peripherals as well as some other limitations also based on those rules which extend to any clustered node involving a peripheral. More often we see them slaved.


You simply don't like the bits out of it I posted so you ignore them.

[Udoshi]

The reason I bring up e-war is because an Agent can run a Clearsight autosoft in the same way as it runs an E-war autosoft. Or even a Gunnery autosoft.

Also, drones aren't peripheral nodes anyway.

When I said we agree, it was on a different topic than the one you're trying to backtrack on now. Let me remind you.

I can see a non-drone specialty autosoft being written, yes.

We were saying the same thing about non-drone/agents running specialty drone-category autosofts. When people say the same thing, that's called agreeing. I don't really care about an agent's utility as a hacker at this time.

If you scroll up to the suggestion that started this discussion - linking an agent to a smartgun that carries a laser designator? An agent considers a shitton of sense when you consider the big picture and not just rules semantics. You don't need to throw money on upgrading the gun's matrix stats or giving it a pilot program to do things itself when you can have an Agent connecting from your Pan and controlling the Designator via Command. Hey look! Six dice on command, plus four more from the relevant autosoft for the skill to fire it. Its pretty cheap(not quite FREE) lunch for 10 dice on a laser designator that also saves you an Action. The agent fires a lock-on laser designator, you fire the homing missile, it all happens in one pass. You could in fact fire TWICE with your own actions.


And just to be clear I don't ignore anything you say. I listen to it, judge it on its own merits, and decide where the conversation should go based on that. I also use quotes to show specifically things I want to respond to. but I try not to over use it.
Because, lets face it, turning an entire paragraph into individual quoted sentences is just really annoying to read and debate over. Think of it as a highlight tool, for conciseness' sake. Sorry if you feel I'm ignoring you, but its not the case.

[Xenefungus]

Anyhow, did anybody mention the built-in sound suppressor of the Slivergun?

Oh yeah the Slivergun. Basically everyone knows that is has better stats than it should have. Let's assume that every target worth shooting at has at least 6 points of ballistic armor (from an armored jacket or the like) so that all the AP can apply and thus simply translates to 1/3 points of damage per point of AP statistically.

With RAW Flechette ammo (which is strictly better than regular ammo damage wise - except when it needs to pierce hardened armor) it deals an average of 6.33 damage. And can do burst fire. Then, it deals 8.33 points of "ouch".
The average SA heavy pistol deals 5.33 damage. You can load other ammo though (either Ex-Ex or APDS, it's the same statistically), to get the damage up to 6.66. No BF there though (except for the already mentioned Lone Star pistol).
A heavy revolver such as the Warhawk deals 6.66 damage out of the box. With Ex-Ex or APDS again, this goes up to 8.0 damage. Only Single Shots here though, so you need ambidexterity and two weapons to have the same firing rate.

What's efficient when using the Slivergun (or any Flechette weapon) is to go for a "headshot" build, which basically just means you call a shot all the time to circumvent armor. To do this reliably, you want to have a large dice pool, which is always nice to have. Then, the AP modifier from flechette does not apply (because you hit a spot that has no armor) and the Damage is a clean 8, plus 2 for BF - that's 10 damage, with a heavy pistol. Same damage an assault cannon deals with a shot to the head, just for comparison. Makes sense, right?

[StealthSigma]

What sort of mods do you use to do that?

Small Firing Selection Change Mod. Since the gun already has BF it's only a small mod to add FA and is 4R rather than 12F.

The HK-227X is a 8R SMG with FA capabilities and a stock suppressor along with a stock and smartgun... I have one of these in my arsenal and it's modded with Electronic Firing (10R), Extended Clip (4R), and Chameleon Coating (10R). That makes it give a -7 penalty to hear it being used and has a concealability equivalent to a heavy pistol. It has 35 instead of 28 rounds and 2 recoil compensation when using the stock and it's still entirely street legal.

[Falconer]

Udoshi... I agree with practically nothing you just wrote.

I was agreeing that there were non-drone autosofts introduced as of Unwired... and I could see others being written. You're taking me out of context to make it seem like I'm in agreement when I'm in nothing of the sort.

I cannot see DRONE autosofts being run on anything but a drone's "Pilot program" though. Drones are special in that they're specifically designed to interact with the real world through machinery. Agents are NOT. There is a drone upgrade to a weapon for a reason, according to you there's zero point to ever make a drone upgraded weapon unless it includes some kind of mobility upgrade. Because you claim a agent to do the same thing! This is incorrect. Drones and their Pilot programs are also special in that they're limited to rating 4 by RAW.

And your last bits I find complete balderdash. Running the agent on the gun for example, ignores that the smartgun is a peripheral node. As well as... you have a completely inanimate gun (so far as aiming itself and all the rest). I don't care what you do... but an agent is not aiming and firing that gun, ESPECIALLY using a drone autosoft. It's one thing to do a drone upgrade to the weapon.. but you just rejected that as a valid option within the rules because you object to the cost and requirements.

No an agent cannot run a clearsight autosoft and bypass the requirements. An agent is not a full character able to do practically everything in the matrix. It's not a sprite which is far more capable within it's sprite niche. It's not an AI, not by a longshot. It is a great tool though for use WITHIN the matrix... but as soon as you start making it cross to interact outside the matrix then you have issues. Pilots are agents + OS, specifically designed to run drone autosofts to expand their abilities... the price they pay for this added flexibility is being limited to rating 4.


Also, the drone firing the laser doesn't offset another problem. The problem is you take a -2 penalty to everything else you do while laser designating... because *YOU* need to hold the gun on target. Pilot or not... the gun is not animated. It's not the drone physically moving and aiming the gun at the target, it's YOU. So that makes the assertion that an agent running somewhere besides the gun could then aim and fire the laser on it's own even sillier. You're not talking about a weapon on a separate articulated weapon mount, you're talking about something bolted to the launcher.

[UmaroVI]

What's efficient when using the Slivergun (or any Flechette weapon) is to go for a "headshot" build, which basically just means you call a shot all the time to circumvent armor. To do this reliably, you want to have a large dice pool, which is always nice to have. Then, the AP modifier from flechette does not apply (because you hit a spot that has no armor) and the Damage is a clean 8, plus 2 for BF - that's 10 damage, with a heavy pistol. Same damage an assault cannon deals with a shot to the head, just for comparison. Makes sense, right?

You're forgetting that it takes a free action to call shots and you only get one free free action per pass.