I'm trying to decide on a primary weapon for my character. He's an infiltrator/face hybrid. For the sake of concealability I want my primary weapon to be a pistol of some sort (not a machine pistol). I'm currently considering the following two weapons:

Ares Viper Slivergun
*Integrated Smartlink
*Electronic Firing
*Powered Folding Stock

Ruger Super Warhawk
*Revolver Silencer
*Semi-automatic firing mode
*Personalized Grip
*Barrel Mounted Smartlink

I'm also open to any suggestions anyone has to offer.

Ther is no such thing as a "revoler silencer" in SR.

yeah there is.

Edit: look for the specific text "special revolver silencer" in arsenal. In the mod section. Under silencer. (its on page 53)

You do realize that the second burst will be at -3 dice and you cannot fire anything but flechettes?

Ruger Thunderbolt with integrated Smartgun System
+ Extended Clip
+ Personalized Grip/Electronic Firing
+ Underbarrel Weight
+ Sound Suppressor as Accessory

- Able to fire any ammunition
- 2 narrow bursts, second one at -1
- 15 round (i.e. 5 bursts)
- Observers get -4/-5 (with electronic firing) to perceive the shot

If you arte fine with a +2 Cocealability modifier add the additional clip mod to get 2x12© capacity.

I'd suggest the Slivergun (with fake license to go with it) as a "daily carry" piece. Most of the mooks you'll have to deal with on the street aren't wearing armour, while cops are (So if they find it on you, they're not going to be as worried as they would a .44/.454/.500/Wristbreaker Wildcat Special Magnum Revolver.).

Carry the revolver on 'Runs when armour is an issue. You'll want the "One-Hit" drop. Even trolls tend to sit down and rethink their lives when hit by a Warhawk round.

Another option I'd suggest is a Colt Government 2066 with an optional barrel silencer (That you can remove to make it seem more legal), which can then be used as both a daily carry and as a 'run weapon. It comes with Electronic Firing as standard, so uses Caseless Rounds, as well, which is always a good thing. Just have a gunsmith contact handy to swap out barrels every now and then. (Or use rounds that won't leave ballistic evidence of the rifling.).

When I'm hassling my group over firearms, I have the cops check the load, BTW. If they have something "Less Than Lethal" loaded (Gel or SnS), the problem becomes less of one. If they have "Highly Lethal" ammo loaded (EX-Explosive), then they have some 'splainin' to do!

I actually kind of like the Warhawk for non-lethal duty. Load it with gel rounds and any shot that connects is almost guaranteed to knock them down if it doesn't knock them out. Of course, some might argue that you could just as well load SnS on any other Heavy Pistol for the same damage and better armor penetration, as well as the electricity secondary effects, but to each their own.

If you want a good all-rounder, the Colt Government 2066 has one of the largest base ammo capacities of the heavy pistols, comes with electronic firing for a free point of RC (sparing you the need to use up mod slots for more RC unless you mod it to BF), and it even gets a free -1 to sound based perception of the weapon. Pretty cheap and even looks nice to boot.

~Umi

you could just carry a taser. fully legal and brings down armored trolls easily.

Ranges are a bit sorry for tasers, though.

0-5, 6-10, 11-15, and 16-20.
VS
0-5, 6-20, 21-40, and 41-60.

If you plan on never needing to shoot anything more than 20m away, and can deal with -3 or -6 dice for things beyond 10m and 15m, then actually yes, tasers are probably superior. Unless you also want to be able to go lethal with a simple ammo swap, or you're against insulated armor.

For a niche character, particularly one based on infiltration, tasers are totally viable. I personally prefer my primary weapons to have a little more versatility, but eh. If you like, buy a taser for everyday stuff, and also buy a backup workhorse gun that can be adapted to any situation. Best of both worlds.

~Umi

You may want to rethink that. Even a leather jacket has Armor 2/2.

SnS does that even better, and you can get the 6s(e) in every pistol. No need to mod for SA of BF.

The two reasons you have listed are the reasons I didn't just go with the sliver gun without a second thought. I've gone the Thunderbolt route before. I was thinking about doing something different for a change, but I'll keep it in mind.


The great thing about the sliver gun is that it has an integrated silencer, but is restricted rather than forbidden. Flechette ammo is also not forbidden.

I had originally intended to use the Ares Predator IV, but I had some spare nuyen leftover at the end of character creation. Not enough to do convert back to karma, but enough to upgrade my gun to something a little more threatening.


A taser is my secondary weapon.

Oh, something I meant to mention, remember that the Thunderbolt specifically mentions it can get you extra harassment from Lone Star officers. If you deal more with Knight Errant, then hey, no big, but I personally feel that if the gun was designed for police work it should earn you a certain level of suspicion from LEOs of any stripe, probably even moreso than carrying a Warhawk.

It's one thing to have a cop think you're a wannabe-badass compensating for something with your Warhawk, it's another thing entirely to have them think you've gotten your hands on something they feel shouldn't be carried by a civilian, laws be damned.

~Umi

If you're not married to having a gun for a primary weapon, I like the monofilament garotte for infiltrators. Base damage 8P, silent and ultra-concealable.

Don't know if that changed, but in SR3, the only way to get a Thunderbolt was to take it from an LS Guy, because they were the only ones who officially got these guns in the first place . .
So every single Thunderbolt in the shadows was previously owned by a cop.

And it was specifically designed to be loud. And LoneStar Cops are specifically trained to recognize the sound of one of these being fired.

Atleast that's how I've played it in the past. As though it's a signature weapon that is produced, almost, exclusively for the Star, partly because it let's me point out to players that LoneStar is a corp and it's part of their 'branding'. Can't remember if that was the official line.

Edit: And beaten to it by Stahlseele.

It all depends on how you houseruled SnS and Flechette, actually.

I prefer it with a built-in sound suppressor (as weapon modification), because those are 50% more effective.

Ruger Thunderbolt
+ integral Smartgun System
+ internal Sound Suppressor (modification)
+ Special Chamber System (2)
+ Underbarrel Weight (modification)
+ Personalized Grip (modification)
+ Skinlink (accessory)

Bye
Thanee

What's the current errata status of the slivergun? the SR4A i have still has it as 8P(f) +2 AP.

The thunderbolt already has -2 rc built into the chamber. You don't need the underbarrel weight or grip.

Thunderbolt
- level 3 ceramic
- electonic firing
- internal sound suppressor
-built in smartgun system

If your only going to fire one burst sure...(since the second burst will have -5 recoil penalty to deal with, so a -2 penalty after compensation)

Also with that lvl 3 ceramic thats going to be a very expensive gun.

You'd be better off with either underbarrel weight if you want more recoil, extended clip, or barrel extension on the thunderbolt. Then get a separate WW Infiltrator (or a Morrissey Elan with manual breakdown) for when you want to sneak something past security.

You may be reading the rules for recoil wrong. Recoil is cumulative across the action phase. So the first burst gets -2 the second one an additional -3 for a total of -5. so you will need 5 points of RC do fully compensate two short bursts. I didn't quite get there (4 RC), but that is the best I can do without a GasVent.

I stand corrected. You could just add an external gas vent 2. That gets you to 5.

GasVents may not be added to Heavy Pistols.

We will have to agree to disagree here. I know RAW says- machine pistols, SMG, assault rifles and machine guns. However my interpetation of that rule is that they mean any weapon capable of burst or FA fireotherwise the rule creates paradox'es within itself.

I totally agree that GasVents should be allowed for any firearm (SS and SA only weapons don't get much out of it though), I just pointed out that by RAW pistols (except machine pistols) cannot take that accessory/modification, as we don't know if the OP's GM will agree with this.

Where is the paradox?

1. I would note that the a-16 a shotgun, not one of the catagories comes with a gas vent

2. The paradox is that you could take a light pistol- mod it to have bf/fa have the exact same stats and capabilties, not similair but the exact same stats as a machine pistol but it can't have a gas vent system?

The character is for Shadowrun Missions at Gen Con, so I'm pretty much stuck with RAW. Otherwise I would just put a gas vent system on a sliver gun and call it a day.

That is what we call inductive reasoning. It is not a paradox.

BF capable Shotgun with shorter Barrel maybe?
It'd be a Troll-Size Slivergun loaded with Flechette.

Until you look at the conceilability, your statement is true.

Concealability is the reason I am not considering machine pistols. Lord knows I'd like to be able to use the Ingram Smartgun X as my "guns a blazing" style weapon if there was another automatic I could use as my concealed weapon.

My personal choice is the P97, with extended clip, extra clip, and some recoil reducers (don't recall what offhand).

I only fire short bursts anyway, so RC tends to be "just enough."

The extra clip is so I can load two kinds of ammo at once (gel and flavor-of-the-week lethal).

Extra and Extended clips mean that I get about 60% more bullet per bullet gun (clip goes from being 60 bullets to 56x2 = 112 bullets, IIRC).

it depends.
many people consider paradox- as just a contridictions.

granted the common usage is that of an unresolvable problem, ie the irrestisable force meets the movable object.

I also belive battle rifes are gas vent capable. ( but i could be wrong, im not there those books, but im pretty sure some of those have gas vent systems.

Look at it this way.

You're looking at Heavy Pistols (5/20/40/60) which have a concealability of 0. The Smartgun is a SMG (10/40/80/150) which has a concealability of 4.

Each Barrel Reduction grants -1 Concealability.

1 Barrel Reduction - 8/32/64/120, 3 Concealability.
2 Barrel Reductions - 6/24/48/90, 2 Concealability.
3 Barrel Reductions - 4/16/32/60, 1 Concealability.

By RAW, only machine pistols, SMGs, assault rifles, and machine guns are compatible with the MODIFICATION and the ACCESSORY named gas vent, factory integrated gas vents have nothing to do with the compatibility of aftermarket addons.

Battle rifles are indeed compatible with gas vents.

I really like the Colt Manhunter.
Laser Sight integrated, giant size magazine, disposable, cheap, reliable. There you go. Don't treat your weapon as your buddy or it will hurt a lot more if you lose it

Unless your good enough that you never lose it/make enough to replace easily.

except that the gas vent mod will replace and supercede the factory mod. mod are not aftermarket addon. acessories are aftermarket addons. Mods are infact built into the gun and can be factory quality. hence why many mods require a shop or facility. I would note page quoting arsenal page 148" if an off the rack weapon comes with certain upgrades like a smartgun, GAS VENT, it is assumed that those upgrades are modifications instead of accessories

all the exceptions and common sense support that gas vents can be used on any firearm can B/F or A/F. every exception to the text as written involves a weapon that falls outside the stated catagory that can B/F or F/A

Allow me to pimp my sig: check the "Ghost" in the first link for a bunch of prebuilt pistols with modifications.

If you play your own game, common sense and RAI (rules as intended) supercede RAW (rules as written). If you plan to play at a convention, and the book clearly says that gas vents can only be put on machine pistols, SMGs, assault rifles and machine guns, then so it is.

^^^^^^^ This, SO very Much This...

Does that mean that AA-7 is not allowed at conventions? And also does that mean in the history shadowrun world only the AA-7 model shotgun is the only one in known world that can ever have a gas vent. I want to hear a catalyst official say that with a straight face. I would also note that RAW only works when it is logically consistent it is not in this case. With your stance the AA-7, the quote concerning nods cannot be resolved. By your raw there are no exceptions. Arsenal rules on mods and the AA-7 make the RAW gas vent a Paradox. They both cannot be truth, the existance of one rule contradicts the other.

RAW is only valid when itself does not create a contradiction becasue the FACT is RAW arsenal says i can mod a shotgun to have gas vents. That's not RAI thats what written in the book.

the problem with your position is best summarized by this quote by

Justice Scalia "[t]extualism should not be confused with so-called strict constructionism, a degraded form of textualism that brings the whole philosophy into disrepute. I am not a strict constructionist, and no one ought to be.... A text should not be construed strictly, and it should not be construed leniently; it should be construed reasonably, to contain all that it fairly means
'"

For example, if you were to interpret the First Amendment strictly, you would come to the conclusion that Congress can censor handwritten letters, because it says Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech or of the press.

A handwritten letter is not press, it's not speech, so Congress can -- of course, not. That -- that's not what it means. Speech and press is meant to cover the ground of expression

So this isn't even a case of RAI this is case of interpeting text correctly, what you are saying is leads to a paradox, is contradicted by another setection of the rules that is considered cannon. Reading it your way creates a situtiation that cannot be solved, its just silly, sorry for the harsh words, but there is not other way to put it. it makes zeo sense and would invalidate an entire chapter in aresenal.

RAW does not exist in isolation, espicially when one is considering a document as whole.

For Missions Legal Stuff, try asking Bull.
Guy is reasonable enough and runs Missions.

ikari....
The problem is you're blatantly ignoring the rules and making up your own. Especially at a convention everyone plays by the same rules.


There are numerous examples of weapons with things that would otherwise be incompatible/disallowed. So just because some off-the-shelf guns come with highly specialized custom features built in from the factory, doesn't mean they can be generally applied to the class. It's against the rules to add an accessory/modification to an item unless it's allowed by RAW. Not for the item to come straight out of the book with it built in.


And really... the bigger problem systemically is that recoil comp is far too easy to come by, so automatics are far and above generally the best class of weapon.

@ikarinokami: Just because you do not like it doesn't make it any less true.

And to answer your question about the AA-7, it is - of course - allowed. You just cannot add a GasVent to it (luckily it already has one).

Bye
Thanee

I like the way you think. I had completely forgotten about that mod.

P129, Arsenal "Overmodifications"
"Unless specifically noted, each modification can only be performed once per object."

The weapons mods specifically refer to the rules for modifications at the beginning of the chapter which this is.

So no triple barrel reductions. As this modification does not allow for multiples of itself...

Based on the wording of the slivergun, it doesn't look like you could use the (very illegal) Armor Piercing Flechettes (War, pg 156) which can be effective against armored targets.

As for my recommendation, I carry two pistols minimum always. Like a cop with an ankle holster, you never know when it could save your life. Not sure if that's what you meant by primary, or if you have a 2nd you'd carry always already picked.

I'm also surprised that amidst the recommendation for tasers, no one has mentioned Narcojet DMSO splash ammo. There are no specific explicit rules for how that works with BF weapons, but assuming BF means 3 shots hit, that's 3 doses. 10S per dose. That WILL drop a troll. Carry Stick N Shock for the same BF pistol for chemsealed targets too, but I prefer Narco.


so, Pistols:
concealability: Morrisey Elan with DMSO narcojet clips & Stick N Shock clips in a concealed holster or a gun-slide. Very concealed backup.

Open carry or Heavy: If Narco or Stick N Shock are used, go for the Rugar Thunderbolt (with smart gun) for the BF capability with RC2, which will mitigate much of the recoil that the last page or so discusses.

Otherwise: A Remington Roomsweeper can be loaded with regular ammo, but since it fires basic flechette as well, you can also go Armor Piercing with them.


All these guns are restricted and can be taken by a starting character. Armor Piercing Flechette ammo is 18F, but hurts so damn bad.

I don't think war is allowed in Missions games.

When I say primary, I mean my open carry weapon. My backup is a Morrisey Elan.

But Narcoject works only at the end of the combat turn. Now that troll has up to 4 combat turns to beat the hell out of you or just raise an alarm.

And then he likely dies of a Narcojet Overdose.