Rules question regarding vision enhancements for Smartgun systems Options

[valavaern]

Gathering up all of the valid points and bits from everyone's arguments, here's about where LOGIC puts us:

1. Catalyst STILL isn't paying attention of how illogical and poorly defined a lot of their rules are
2. A Smartgun system can either be added externally (while still magically being able to control the inside of your gun) as an accessory, or internally as a modification. Period.
3. A Smartgun system is a ballistic co-processor, a wireless antenna, and a sensor package with a rating of 3, giving it capacity 3
4. This capacity is taken up by a camera [1], a laser-range finder [1], and specialized ammo, heat, etc sensors [1]
5. a sensor package with a capacity of 3 is the same as in a minidrone (both by the rules and it's logical size), and is therefore large enough to hold a camera of any rating for capacity [1]
6. sensors that are a part of a package that is typically given a device rating are assumed to be of the same rating as the device, therefore a standard smart camera is rating 3.
7. a rating 3 camera has 3 capacity to add vision modifications as normal
8. the camera's rating can be upgraded just like it could in any other sensor package.

Conclusion: the "Vision Enhancement" weapon modification is redundant, idiotic, contradicts the rest of the rules regarding sensors, and should throw into the same blackhole as emotipets, SnS ammo (for anything other than shotguns), and the availability rating for High Powered Ammo.

An now, super-trippy question time: can you add the smart-link vision enhancement to your smartgun's camera? :o

[ChromeZephyr]

An now, super-trippy question time: can you add the smart-link vision enhancement to your smartgun's camera? :o

Yo dawg..

Sorry, I'll get my coat.

[Udoshi]

So using your broken logic then.

There's no reason to ever spend a modification slot to install an internal smartlink because you can just do it as an accessory?

nooooooooo, again, you're MISSING THE POINT ENTIRELY.

I pay a slot, install an internal modlink, and install a Vision Magnification into its built in camera.
Then I put a Pilot Upgrade on it, which I can only do if there's an internal modlink.
Then I install my gun into a tripod or a gunport on a vehicle or something and enjoy having an autoturret.

Otherwise it's completely pointless to ever do it as a modification because all it does is waste space. Making that and other entries dead letter... which clearly is NOT the intent.

It doesn't waste space; it lets you take advantage of mods which require internal smartlinks.

the 'i'll just use an external smartlink for 400 nuyen instead of double my weapons base price, fuck paying double HMG price' exploit existed before arsenal came along. it just maintained its status quo.

The thing you're finally starting to get is that there is no superceding involved. Arsenal pretty much shoves into your face the fact(zeropoint's quote) that accessories exist and that guns still come with them, even when mods are an available system to use. Mods are not a system that forces you to use it, and I don't know where the fuck you got that idea from. Arsenal doesn't make you use mods! Hell, it includes a shitton of extra accessories! It even has guns which, *GASP*, have accessories and not mods.

Case in point: the FN Mag-5(page 29) is a medium machinegun that "comes equipped with a top-mounted laser sight, a barrel-mounted gas-vent 2 system, and a folding tripod as an underbarrel accessory" Holy shit its not a mod! I can't believe it! A laser sight specifically on a top mount?

Its like the writers of the book wanted Mods and Accessories to BOTH BE USED HOLY SHIT THE WORLD IS ENDING

/sarcasm

[Falconer]

Actually accessories exist. Everything built into the gun from the factory is considered a modification.


My issue is that according to you, there is no reason ever to spend a slot on the camera upgrade. I disagree. I believe the camera can be upgraded, but doing so means you need to use up very limited space in the gun to do so. Hence why it costs you on top of the normal price, the small price of an extra modification slot for the 'camera upgrade'.


You're saying I don't like this, so I'm going to completely ignore it. Which is fine, but don't tell me that's following the rules when you're intentionally ignoring them because you don't like them.


Valv: Completely missing the jist of the thread... the issue isn't that the smartgun has a camera... its' that wepaons have different modification rules for things built into them. Those are codified in Arsenal. The basic rules are written to be used without arsenal, arsenal as a rules expansion overrides some aspects of that (such as changing the internal smartlink from an accessory to a modification).

[Udoshi]

Conclusion: the "Vision Enhancement" weapon modification is redundant, idiotic, contradicts the rest of the rules regarding sensors, and should throw into the same blackhole as emotipets, SnS ammo (for anything other than shotguns), and the availability rating for High Powered Ammo.

I didn't get a chance to say it with the other arguement going on, but basically that "Vision Enhancement" weapon modification, while dumb and idiotic, was introduced before cameras had a rating. Likely one of the devs put it in as a solution to 'how much shit can a smartgun camera hold anyway' Not-problem..... and it was never changed when they introduced Actual Camera Ratings. Because catalyst never fixes anything. Ever.

THAT BEING SAID, despite all the knocks and confusion its caused, the Guncam Upgrade actually does have a use. There are currently 9 camera slots worth of vision enhancements. A camera 6 can only fit 6 in it. If you ever really, really, really need all the toys crammed into your gun.

While I respect your logic in coming to that conclusion, I don't like the implication that a smartlink counts as a sensor package. That implies you can change its sensor configuration, which is something its never even hinted at being able to do.
Sadly, it's just a device that has two built-in sensors, it isn't actually a drone or a seperate sensor package that you buy.

My logic is a bit simpler than yours but ends up at the same conclusion.

• oh shit, i want a smartgun with zoom, but catalyst fucked up again and has terrible rules they haven't fixed.
• What's the issue? The smartgun has a camera but the rating isn't given?
• Whats its Device rating? 3? Okay! Fuck catalyst! We're going with that! OR, I'll just pay for an actually rated one and dodge the issue entirely because i gave it a rating!
• Hey GM, I found a rules snag. Here's the problem AND the solution? Does this work for you?

[Udoshi]

Actually accessories exist. Everything built into the gun from the factory is considered a modification.

My issue is that according to you, there is no reason ever to spend a slot on the camera upgrade. I disagree. I believe the camera can be upgraded, but doing so means you need to use up very limited space in the gun to do so. Hence why it costs you on top of the normal price, the small price of an extra modification slot for the 'camera upgrade'.

You're saying I don't like this, so I'm going to completely ignore it. Which is fine, but don't tell me that's following the rules when you're intentionally ignoring them because you don't like them.

1: False! Arsenal actually gives guns that have accessories slapped on top, AS I POINTED OUT ALREADY, because they're specifically labeled as accessories.
2: WRONG AGAIN.

THAT BEING SAID, despite all the knocks and confusion its caused, the Guncam Upgrade actually does have a use. There are currently 9 camera slots worth of vision enhancements. A camera 6 can only fit 6 in it. If you ever really, really, really need all the toys crammed into your gun.

3: I'm actually backing up how it works with rules. I'm not ignoring anything.
You're substituting your opinion on how stuff works and how it should be balanced with actual facts and rules. You couldn't give a relevant page quote to save your life.
In short, stop trolling.

[Falconer]

p148.
"If an off-the-rack weapon comes with certain upgrades like smartgun, gas-vent system, etc. it is assumed that those upgrades are MODIFICATIONS instead of accessories. however, those modifications do not count toward the slot limit and the weapon themselves still counta s unmodified."

So while there may be a few here and there which have not available as modification accessories here and there.

That makes it fairly clear if there's ever any doubt anything built into the gun is a modification.

[Tech_Rat]

Are y'all even arguing the same point?

One is saying the smart link costs mod space, the other is arguing the function of different versions of said mod/accessory.

Or am I one Irish Car Bomb beyond basic reading comprehension?

Smart link has camera. Camera accepts mod. Camera slot gets filled as it reaches capacity. Its like adding an under barrel mount to an under barrel mounted weapon. The accessory has been accesorized. Smart link can be modded. Gun can be modded.

Falconer: you can have a scope and smart link. rules just state you only benefit from largest bonus. Semantics, I know. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Reading the posts again, it does look like y'all're arguing two different points.

[DMiller]

Tech_Rat, I think you are mostly right. I think the argument is slightly askew. If I have read and understood the argument, Udoshi is saying that he wants to add vision mods to the (unrated) camera that comes for free with a smartgun package. Falconer is saying that a smartgun package doesn't come with a free camera. If you want to have a smartgun system in your weapon first you have to add a camera modification to the weapon, then you can add the smartgun system. The camera can then be modified with vision enhancements as required using the camera capacity based on the camera installed.

I’m sure that if I have misinterpreted what these two kind and very generous people have said they will correct me in the most polite and considerate way possible. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-D

[Udoshi]

If I have read and understood the argument, Udoshi is saying that he wants to add vision mods to the (unrated) camera that comes for free with a smartgun package. Falconer is saying that a smartgun package doesn't come with a free camera. If you want to have a smartgun system in your weapon first you have to add a camera modification to the weapon, then you can add the smartgun system. The camera can then be modified with vision enhancements as required using the camera capacity based on the camera installed.

I’m sure that if I have misinterpreted what these two kind and very generous people have said they will correct me in the most polite and considerate way possible. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You, good sir, are mostly correct - if slightly backwards. You don't need to put a camera in first to get a smartgun - because the smartgun itself includes a camera and some other things with the whole package. The item description says it comes with a camera which can take vision accessories. Tech_rat's summary, here, is entirely accurate:

Smart link has camera. Camera accepts mod. Camera slot gets filled as it reaches capacity. Its like adding an under barrel mount to an under barrel mounted weapon. The accessory has been accesorized. Smart link can be modded. Gun can be modded.

Falconer is kind of all over the place with his interpretation of rules and he thinks they aren't balanced, but basically it started because he thinks that the Gun Modification that adds MORE vision accessories is useless(it mostly is), and that means the whole system is broken and unbalanced and cheating to use - instead of what's actually going in: Catalyst Game Labs making "Yet Another Rules Blunder", compounded by "Changing The Rules For Cameras Between Editions And Not Updating Their Old Material Accordingly".

Good job, falconer. You've confused the new guy into thinking that you have to put a Camera Upgrade into a gun before a smartlink.

[DMiller]

Udoshi,

I wasn't saying that the smartgun mod didn't come with a camera. That was my interpretation of what Falconer was saying. I agree that the smartgun system has a camera that indeed can be upgraded.

The camera mod listed in Arsenal is there so you can add a camera to a gun to record a muzle-eye view of your kills and such, it is seperate from the camera in the smartgun system.

However I could be wrong on my interpretation of Falconer's statements.

-D

*edit* Oh and though I have only a few posts, I wouldn't consider myself "new". I've been playing since first edition, I still have my 1st edition hard-backs (though the covers are about falling off of it). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Udoshi]

p148.
"If an off-the-rack weapon comes with certain upgrades like smartgun, gas-vent system, etc. it is assumed that those upgrades are MODIFICATIONS instead of accessories. however, those modifications do not count toward the slot limit and the weapon themselves still counta s unmodified."

This is a rule intended to patch core book weapons into compatability with arsenal mod rules.
If something says it comes with an accessory, it still an accessory.

Case in point: the FN Mag-5(page 29) is a medium machinegun that "comes equipped with a top-mounted laser sight, a barrel-mounted gas-vent 2 system, and a folding tripod as an underbarrel accessory"

Enjoy your contradiction.

Dmiller: Mah bad, i meant new to the conversation

[Falconer]

Exactly the rule is intended to modify the base weapons and the newly created ones into arsenals ADVANCED weapons modification rules. As of second printing it was updated to also incorporate SR4a into it.


In the example only the tripod is an accessory (note the singular). It's the exception which proves the rule.

Also I'll point out tripods aren't available as modifications. Bipods are but not tripods. Lets face it a gun with a never removable tripod would suck! (you ever tried to lug one of those things around! They're heavy and get in the way).

[Speed Wraith]

Also I'll point out tripods aren't available as modifications. Bipods are but not tripods. Lets face it a gun with a never removable tripod would suck! (you ever tried to lug one of those things around! They're heavy and get in the way).

Stick it on a rotodrone and, as I think someone else already mentioned, now you have a mobile sentry gun. But that's the only time I could imagine having a permatripod without the user being military.

[Marwynn]

Yo dawg..

Sorry, I'll get my coat.

Sir, you owe me a fresh cup of coffee. I actually did a spit-take.