Foci and multiple spells Options

[Raiden]

I understand what you are saying. The Thing I am saying is that the mage is risking a lot more than the guy with a gun. I am also not sure where you got the 16 dice pools per cast post split without the magic+skill dice. From what I have read and seen you can get +4 from specialization and a mentor spirit. and an Additional +4 from a power focus ( you cannot start with a R5 or higher Power focus). the highest spellcasting focus is R5 with the restricted gear perk total of 13 dice.
If I have missed something please correct me.

you paid at least 10 bp just to be able to get that extra +9 from the foci. not mentioning the 7bp from mentor spirit and specialization. a R4 power foci and R5 spell-casting foci are 200,000 (40bp) for a total of 57bp.

Now, I have never been in a game where the spell specialization was allowed for post split adding. the mentor spirit Has gone both ways. so I have seen anywhere from an 9-11 Post split dice modifier. (which adding a maxed sorcery and magic skill is between 21-23 dice) on par with or lower than dice pools I have seen combat specialists roll with automatics and the like. (which they get two shots per action phase without losing much of said dice pool with a +5 dv and +3 dv or -5 defender pool and -3 defending pool. with a lose of 1-2 dice.) not to mention called shots for a -x dice and +x damage boost.

and to reiterate what I stated above the mage has to resist said drain from his spells. whether overcasting a direct spell (at force 9 is a drain of 4) for lethal damage, ( not to mention he is probably getting shot at) or casting an indirect for around 6 drain for stun damage. if he chooses to cast 3 of either spells stated earlier he must resist the drain of each of them +1 per additional spell with a dice pool of anywhere from 10-12. (13 for the first spell if he has centering)

A mage wishes to overcast 3 manabolts at 3 guardsmen at force 9. (assuming he somehow rolls a higher initiative) he would roll 21-23 dice ( which with the optional rule are useless used in this way except to gaurentee hitting them) he must then resist drains of 6 physical damage per spell. (4+2 due to additional spells cast). ( 5 drain if using stunbolt). with a dice pool of at best 12-13 to resist There is no way he can resist it all every roll. he would take at least 1-2 damage on each roll. at 3 boxes of damage he loses a die for resisting drain (-1 wound modifier) which makes resisting the rest even harder.

If the mage had instead chosen to use indirect spells rather than direct and cast 3 lighting bolts at a force of 6-7 depending on initiate grade or some variant of he would have to resist 8 stun drain per spell. here the mages large dice pool per spell comes into full effect by generating large amounts of net hits for the extra damage. but at 12-13 dice for drain resistance unless he spends a couple points of edge its safe to say he goes unconscious. (oh hey, there was a guard just in the other room that you did not get!)

also for fluff reasons, If you can cast a spell at a certain power, why, if you chose to cast multiples of it weaken the power at which you cast said spell? and if you are channeling said spells through a device to strengthen them, would it diminish its strengthening just because more than one spell is passing through it?

( of couse this is assuming power foci and spellcasting foci stack, I have never tried it as i feel the power foci gives me plenty of umph).

as for the net using net hits, if they do not overcast then they wont die or get knocked out. if they do overcast, they are risking their physical health, which I think is more than enough. especially fluff wise.

[Falconer]

You've blinded yourself. I said before only the ignorant use a spell focus. That's not the source of the dice. You've also demonstrated you don't know the rules, which makes everything else you've just said highly suspect. You can only use one focus on one test. Furthermore, I was talking strictly RAW vs. the errata they were working on none of us has ever seen so don't know the details of. So specialization does go post-split by RAW and RAI. (it's a dice pool modifier, not a skill modifier!)

A power focus is prefered because it adds dice just like a spell focus, but it adds them to EVERYTHING. (casting any spell, summoning any spirit, binding any spirit, dispelling magic... etc.).


That's only 29 BP for the R4 power focus (great deal out of chargen... +4 dice on all your magical stuff for a mere 29BP... compare to 40BP for an actual 4point increase in magic to 5). Mentor is 5BP (and helps more than just spells). 24BP for 6spellcasting. (notice that little to none of this is far above what a character NORMALLY pays when he chooses to be a magician, so the cost at the margin is minimal). Then we start with say 2BP dropped on summoning ritual matierials. Learn spells... increase wil should be one, as well as increase your secondary drain stat. All said... 42BP total (13 of which most mages start with anyhow! I commonly see mages start with force 2 power focus as well for a mere 12BP). So don't say this is a major investment it costs the mage a single skill group.

Step 1. Bind spirit of man force 6+, innate spells, increase wil and increase cha. ($3000)
Step 2. spirit is tasked with using it's innate spell power to keep your mental attributes maxed. Congrats you've now got 9wil and 9logic. 18 dice to resist drain.
Step 3. Summon and bind a force 10 spirit of your school. (you have 18 dice to resist drain... you can do it!), $5000 (congrats you still have $2000 in ritual materials left over).

You've now got two spirits bound... one of which is a real badass.

+10 dice aid sorcery force 10 or less, +4 power focus, +2 Mentor. 16 dice. (if we toss in specialization that's 18 dice).

Use your first two karma to get your specialization (2BP vs 2karma... no contest to the power gaming twink!).


As for the rest... this doesn't matter. I can use a different spell to get the same result. Say a force 3 turn to goo. Then steal all the good bits... stab the puddles to death...


You also fail to address why spells get special treatment with so many potentially uncapped positive dice modifiers post-split. While every other attack method which allows splitting is capped to only specializaation and positive qualities. (such as codeslinger, mentor spirit, etc.).


You're not going to sway me here. All this is a way for the mage to hog the spotlight... where's the street sam in all this, the decker, the rest of the team? If things aren't mixed up in a furball... why aren't you using an area spell right away!! You don't address at all the problem I pointed out earlier... Simply dual-casting 2 force 5 combat spells to drop a single target... let alone 2 force 5 turn to goo's to neutralize 2 targets in a single pass.

You claim this is heroic and exceptional. I see multi-casting as routine, even in lower power games... because it gives the mage the single best tool to work with. Action advantage... the ability to do more than one thing at once.

[Raiden]

I never said your view was "wrong" I just like arguing :3 just giving my reasoning of why to allow it. I apologize on the Foci, I have never tried to nor been in a group where someone tried to stack them and was away from my books so I was Unsure whether or not they could be stacked.

a spirit of that force is going to require concentration to keep under control -2 due to concentration :3. ( no matter what you do power gamers will find ways >.>) as for the innate spellpower of the spirit to keep your att. maxed are you referring to Spell Binding? If so then I could think of a ton of ways to legally screw with the mage haha.

as for force 3-5 turn to goo spells. this may need some house rules to get around. I can not find anything in the books I have, although to be honest I have not put much effort to, But I think I remeber seeing somwhere that you could also limit the number of hits based on the force the spell was cast at. (If this is true, there you go, if not I concede on this point, (they may still need to specialize in manipulation) but that wouldn't hurt to much best thing I could think of doing is giving most sec. guards bod 5 and putting a mage with them haha.

The two force 5 combat spells to drop one guy is fine by me though. since you would drop him either way. (maybe its warded with a mana barrier and spirits can not get in, if you think the mage is to strong. usually in the few arcs I have been in most of the time mages wind up going after most of the other more combative party members. ( and unless they have a sustaining foci or are sustaining an increased reflexes spell will usually not have more then thier 1st action phase) even with RAW you have ways to CC the power gaming mage.

there is still the point of the entire NPC team would be targeting the mage. (The street same should be keeping them OFF the mage. as for the dacker, he has plenty of spotlight time outside of fights as do must other chars that are not built strictly for when shit hits the fan)

RAW mages are indeed powerful, but in respect when you think of a mage ( in any movie or rpg/tabletop) they are SUPPOSED to be stronger then "mundanes". I myself actually prefer adept chars, with only a couple of mages made. (I still get scared when I see an enemy mage, your SUPPOSED to be.)

I did not think about abusing the spirits that way since I have never come across it in games (except the aid sorcery, that comes up alot :3) and since I play more adept chars I haven't read all there is on spirits.

[Midas]

That's only 29 BP for the R4 power focus (great deal out of chargen... +4 dice on all your magical stuff for a mere 29BP... compare to 40BP for an actual 4point increase in magic to 5). Mentor is 5BP (and helps more than just spells). 24BP for 6spellcasting. (notice that little to none of this is far above what a character NORMALLY pays when he chooses to be a magician, so the cost at the margin is minimal). Then we start with say 2BP dropped on summoning ritual matierials. Learn spells... increase wil should be one, as well as increase your secondary drain stat. All said... 42BP total (13 of which most mages start with anyhow! I commonly see mages start with force 2 power focus as well for a mere 12BP). So don't say this is a major investment it costs the mage a single skill group.

Step 1. Bind spirit of man force 6+, innate spells, increase wil and increase cha. ($3000)
Step 2. spirit is tasked with using it's innate spell power to keep your mental attributes maxed. Congrats you've now got 9wil and 9logic. 18 dice to resist drain.
Step 3. Summon and bind a force 10 spirit of your school. (you have 18 dice to resist drain... you can do it!), $5000 (congrats you still have $2000 in ritual materials left over).

You've now got two spirits bound... one of which is a real badass.
+10 dice aid sorcery force 10 or less, +4 power focus, +2 Mentor. 16 dice. (if we toss in specialization that's 18 dice).
Use your first two karma to get your specialization (2BP vs 2karma... no contest to the power gaming twink!).

While the above may be a staple at your table, I am not sure it is quite the SOP you suggest on most tables. For one, a lot of GMs rule that high force spirits always use Edge to resist summoning/binding, so binding them can become quite risky (especially if they get an unusually good roll). For 2, having a high force spirit sustain Increase Drain Stat x 2 spells on you means you can't go through wards without alerting the mage who built them or dropping the spells (and the GM is entirely in his rights to make dropping and recasting the spells eat another service). For 3, why the hell are you using a F10 spirit to aid sorcery? It could probably kick the opposition's arses and find you the McGuffin without breaking a sweat in the first place.

I am not saying you are wrong, just that the modus operandi outlined in your post is definitely on the powergamer end of the SR spectrum, and would require a pretty lenient or masochistic GM. As always, YMMV.

And while it is true that you can start building up a lot of post-split DP bonuses when multicasting, you fail to mention that there can be a lot of negative DP penalties from visibility and cover that to an extent offset this. Don't get me wrong, multicasting can be useful, but it ain't necessarily all that.

[Falconer]

Midas... once again he asked how I could get to 16 dice out of chargen (toss in spec out of chargen and we're up to +18 post split)... I agree, we regularly edge any spirit over magic. But in this case... you just made the character, it has no karma... if it dies... make another clone. (escaped clones! haha). The reason the character has 18 dice for drain (human, I could make it more with dwarf or elf, or by taking focused concentration... bind a force 7... 7 cha starting elf... now we're up to 21 dice drain). Two the increase stats were for purposes of resisting the force 10 binding drain! Not for running around... you're nitpicking.

You see my point you're nitpicking over minutiae. Whether the spirit bonus is +5 or +10... it dwarfs anything available to other split dice attack vectors. Even at that, even against a GM opposed to it... there's not much he can do to stop it except spend edge on the summoning ritual... or other deus ex machina railroading techniques like stealing ritual materials/disrupting the ritual, etc.

Even limiting to a single spirit force == magic. That's still +13 dice post split! (why I say it's just nitpicking)


Secondly, you completely missed the context.
Firing two pistols at once... large post-split dice. None (+2 specialization), Also Range penalties.
Attacking multiple targets in melee. Only one, weapon focus if awakened (+2 spec, +-reach, if awakened +weap focus +5*) (but it's resisted by attribute + skill, or attribute + 2x skill).
Attacking multiple targets in astral combat... treated as melee, same problems.
Attacking multiple icons in cybercombat. None, (Specialization, Codeslinger)
Attacking multiple targets with a spell. Large post split bonuses from MULTIPLE sources and resisted attribute only more often than not, sometimes +counterspelling.

Other factors you bring up like cover and visibility... are common penalties to all but one of them (and cover is a defense modifier, not an attack modifier).

One other that might apply is tacnet... but strong emphasis on might. Of the list of possible tests the GM *MIGHT* allow.. we've found that +attack and +defense is badly OP. Everything else on the list isn't bad (info guided attacks, surprise, perception, etc. even the optional to give an initiative bonus. We just think that tacnet shouldn't be any better than if you already have a smartlink).

So after looking at that again... I think the best way to handle things would be to to only allow specializations or positive qualities to apply to multiple tests. Some kind of restriction that typed bonuses must be applied to appropriate types.

[Mäx]

Firing two pistols at once... large post-split dice. None (+2 specialization), Also Range penalties.

Attunement is also an option for adepts.
Also the range penalties are quite simple to get rid of.

Edit: Synch genetreatment is also +1 to all combat test(so works on ranged, melee and unarmed) after enemies first attack(now that i noticed it works for ranged too, i think i might have to add this to some of my builds) also for unarmed taekwondo has an advantage that gives +1 if your attacking more then one target.

[Raiden]

honestly it doesnt matter, when your talking "+13-18 dice before adding magic + skill they can still split into 2-3 spells and stand fairly good odds of hitting direct spells

[Falconer]

Good catch Max... I was thinking out of chargen. But that's right as well.

But it's only +2 until you're initiate grade 3 or 4 (forget if it rounds down or up). So it's not exactly a large modifier.


But I'm noticing a definite pattern here. All the large post-split dice pools are magical in nature.


Machine sprite on a smartgun maybe as well... I know that's capped somehow... but need to look it up.

[Xenefungus]

Off-topic: For physical combat, my 6 arms shiva character (everyone has one, right?) gets +4 from tacnet (as already mentioned. the seven members are his six guns plus himself (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ) as the largest bonus, +2 spec, +3+1 because of two options for the skillsoft he is using (customized + overdrive? something like that). but it comes at a hefty price because the +3 gets subtracted from all other tests. still, it's +10 to all six split pools. plus the 2 from splitting base pool of 12 (agi 8 + skillsoft 4) thats 12 dice for each attack, which is ok.

[Mäx]

+3+1 because of two options for the skillsoft he is using (customized + overdrive? something like that).

Personalized and Overdrive.
Just read those and holy hell are they badly written, there's absolutely no reason for those bonuses to be dicepool modifiers instead of skill modifiers.
But yes as written you can get +4 with those 2 to all your pools, witch actually makes not even having the combat skill and just using a chipped skill better then actually having the skill if your planning to only shoot 2+ guns every time.

Combining those with the stuff from my last post can net an adept (warriors way, initiation grade 3):
4(tac-net)+4(soft options) +2(attunement with the weapons) +1(synch) = +11 to all pools against opponent that allready attacked her.(you cant have a spec for the chipped skill)

[Falconer]

Max:
Also like I mentioned machine sprites... please correct me if I'm wrong but can't the sprite be lent out to another player in the same manner as a spirit? Or are it's bonuses reserved solely for the technomancer?

Also strikes me biowires allows things including the threading of options. (and ultra-cheap skills... yeah I'm learning this at rating 6 for 6 karma)...


Xenefungus. Read the Tacnet rules for once. You require ignoring everything in the section... or making questionable readings of everything as well as outright ignoring limitations you don't like. The problem is the whole section is grey, and where it isn't grey powergamers run roughshod over them and make up all kinds of excuses which don't fly when you read the few published limits.


6 guns providing the exact same info from the exact same point of view don't exactly contribute much of anything to a tacnet.

Two... the rules clearly state only *MIGHT* provide a bonus subject to GM interpretation.

Three, drones are limited in how many sensor channels they can provide to a tacnet. It doesn't matter whether they subscribe external sensors or not... they can only provide sensor rating number of channels to a tacnet. Once you get drones involved (not full size vehicles, only drones) your tacnet is limited to rating 3 using drones with maxed out sensors.


Sorry, tacnets are a huge pet peeve of mine. Every powergamer immediately hits on full rating +4 to well almost everything for next to no cost. They don't read the rules... and importantly expect GM's to acquiesce to their warped readings of it all. Especially the bits over tacnet benefits... a GM *MIGHT* go along with.

I just find the whole matter silly as well. Smartlinks and other electronic aiming aids are banned. SO why suddenly are tacnets? (look at red dot as well). You have +2 from smartlink AR bonus... now tacnet is an additional +4 AR on top of that?! As well as your defense tests... and perception, surprise, etc. etc. etc. I can see the surprise/perception/knowledge type enhancements... but not the direct combat dice pools.


All I have to say is any GM which allows you to actually pull this kind of nonsense is either running one of the most pink mohawk games known to man or has completely lost track of his senses.

[Mäx]

Max:
Also like I mentioned machine sprites... please correct me if I'm wrong but can't the sprite be lent out to another player in the same manner as a spirit? Or are it's bonuses reserved solely for the technomancer?

If you mean the sprite using diagnostic on the gun, then it doesn't even matter if the sprite can be lent or not as the bonus from that isn't in anyway tied to owning/controlling the sprite.
Ofcource if a GM allows that power to be used to shoot better, he has to use your words lost all track of his senses.
But if you do find a GM who allows that, then there's also the Analyze Device spell.
So even being quite conservative and only assuming +3 dice from both of those, brings us to quite crazy +17 dice to all pools.(this would ofcource require separate sprites and spells for each gun, but the bonuses can potentially be much higher)

Also strikes me biowires allows things including the threading of options. (and ultra-cheap skills... yeah I'm learning this at rating 6 for 6 karma)...

Skillsoft are limited to rating 4