Do SR characters PAY for things?, Why do these criminal mastermind groups use money? Options

[Yerameyahu]

Possibly, but there's no good reason it *does* cut both ways.

[Adarael]

Adarael's post makes me glad I bought Erased...

Thorguild

Well, my example also cuts the other way, too, you know? My above example is basically "What if the cops do their job effectively and well?" This is not always a likelihood in the Shadowrun universe. In many cases, it' the exact opposite.

What if the Face rolls well enough for facial recognition and gait analysis software to turn up nothing? What if their car is plain and ordinary, and they drive well enough to blend into a crowd? What if where they live doesn't have cameras, or - god forbid - a Z-zone, where the cops just throw up their hands and go "Augh, fuck it." Or, honestly, what if the amount of stuff the runners steal is considered trivial by the company? 86,000 yen worth of goods is pretty hefty, but what if they only make off with 10 grand, or 15? That's easily within the alloted "breakage" budget of commercial hardware suppliers. As long as they don't do it too often, they should be able to suppliment their income.

And if they wanna strike bigger? Get maybe a 100k payout now and again? Blackmail or bribe (or both) the supply chain manager, and take more time. More can easily go missing if someone who knows the system and excuses is in on it.

[_Pax._]

So when Mr. Runner walks in with the full amount of his debt to you in a credstick, and is fully paid up on his outstanding interest to boot... You let it go.

I'm a GM. I don't have stats. The runners can't touch me. So no, no I don't.

You forget: in addition to the money and gear and bullets and such, there's also a game ... and that game must remain balanced.

[ShadowDragon8685]

I'm a GM. I don't have stats. The runners can't touch me. So no, no I don't.

The Runners may not be able to, but the players can if you're pulling ridiculous shenanigans like this. Mobs don't pick fights that are going to cost them hundreds of thousands of nuyen in immediate damage, a few million in long-term damage to their cashflow, and the very real possibility that important family members will wind up carked, all because they want to bleed a guy for a few thousand for the rest of his life.

You forget: in addition to the money and gear and bullets and such, there's also a game ... and that game must remain balanced.

If you're making them pick suicidal fights out of some single-minded insistence on "game balance" over a stupid negative quality which has been paid off in cash, then you are the problem.

[almost normal]

Quite fucking true.

[Midas]

I should add that as a GM I would allow a character to alter their In Debt quality to another quality if it makes sense.
Hypothetical: Character uses a real, valid SIN to secure an auto loan with a legitimate lending institution. Pays off the car loan, but guess what? Your credit history just became easier to track, take Records on File. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

10% interest per month is loan-shark not legitimate institution level of interest. Also the quality description does not imply a legitimate loan at all. Otherwise, fine sentiments.

You know what happens to crime syndicates who try to extort Shadowrunners?

They wind up on the hit list of people who are, let's face, it very powerful, very stealthy, and very portable. Sure, you may be able to crush them, but they're also capable of slipping away and surgically cutting your head off if you choose to pursue this game.

The Shadows are full of dead Runners who pissed off dons... And the graveyards for people whose names end in vowels have their share of dead Dons who've pissed off 'Runners. Maybe not as many, but there's also a lot fewer Dons out there to start with. Honestly, this shouldn't come as a surprise; fragging with people who commit violent acts of mayhem professionally is a bad idea, especially when you're clearly and egregiously in the wrong.

So when Mr. Runner walks in with the full amount of his debt to you in a credstick, and is fully paid up on his outstanding interest to boot... You let it go. You pocket your money, call it a profit made, and you don't instigate something that could turn very bad for the Family. Same as for Mr. Johnson - paying the Runners their blood money is always going to be cheaper and less trouble than trying to screw them. In this case, it's letting them pay you off free and clear that's going to be cheaper than making an enemy by trying to bleed them.

At the end of the day, everybody wants the same two things.
1: They want to make their nuyen.
2: They want to live to spend their nuyen tomorrow.

So yes, you could try extorting Mr. Shadowrunner. And maybe he'll pay you. Or maybe he'll rally his team to his side for this egregious treatment and decide to show you how Shadowrunners deal with people who play fast and loose with their money. Even if you win, in the end, it's going to have cost you a hell of a lot more than trying to bleed the guy for a monthly stipend would ever have been worth.

The logical fallacy of this argument is that if the organization isn't powerful enough to extort the runners if they feel like it, they are not powerful enough to go get the accruing interest should the runner decide they can't be bothered to pay it back in the first place. And if they can't collect due interest unless Mr. Shadowrunner deigns to play it nice and fair, they won't lend to him from the outset (which, given the apparent lethality of the shadowrunning profession, would be pretty stupid anyway to be honest, let's face it there ain't worse bad debt than that owed by a corpse).

Pretty much what SD said.

The Mafia is scary to average people. The father putting the occasional bet on the football game, with a wife and kids, has a reason to be afraid of the mob making a few house calls.

The Runner who just extracted a guy from a fucking Arcology? With no known address, vehicle, or job? With elite level skill in inflicting death? Yeah, that's the guy that takes down the all-too-public Mob bosses.

Starting runners should probably not be extracting people from arcologies, that is more the realm of prime runners, but YMMV. Again, the syndicates ain't gonna loan money to someone who can just take the money and dissappear in a puff of smoke, you can be sure they will know where the character lives and know enough of his/her contacts to carve the info out of if said runner does decide repayment is too much of a drag and dissappear.

[Midas]

If you're making them pick suicidal fights out of some single-minded insistence on "game balance" over a stupid negative quality which has been paid off in cash, then you are the problem.

According to RAW, the only way to pay off a NQ is with karma. The In Debt quality is no exception, although you are quite welcome to house rule it otherwise.

For the record, in my game I allow In Debt to be paid off with cash only (a house rule), but until the debt is paid off the PC will be hassled big time by Sopranos-esque made men, and God forbid they are stupid enough to fight back.

[Irion]

And now we realize that it is quite silly to handle test like "repeat step one to three for an other month"...
Yeah, you need to tweak the mechanik or the GM has to handle it. Like it is also said in the book...

The point is, that it is quite hard to give rules for that kind of thing. It really much depends on how the game world feels in the group playing the game.

So if you hack yourself a high lifestyle the "LAW" will knock on your door at some point.
The higher the lifestyle is the higher the risk. (There are several ways to reach this goal.)
The way within the rules would be to say, that the test to hack your lifestyle are subject the the "reduce your dicepool for every roll"-rule. Which is actually quite self explaining.
Or you make same random mechanism. For each month of "hacked" lifestyle roll "(level of lifestyle-1)*(month hacked)" dice. If you hit a threashold the player has caught the attention of the law. Or something like that. Every month of payed lifestyle reduces this dicepool by one. (Just as an example if you really need a machanism for building up heat.)
It is the same thing with a mage flooding the world with Orichalcum.
Yes, the rules say runners can sell everything at 30% and be done with it.
Still, if you have your ally spirit flooding the market....

[Fortinbras]

In a desperate, and likely futile, attempt to get this thread back on track...

The goals are: #1 - Minimum risk. #2 - No, really - MINIMUM RISK!

If a run has minimum risk, you are GMing wrong.
While that specific plan has more holes than Swiss cheese, I have no problem with a run to get gear. My characters have done quite a few scenarios for runs they've come up with themselves. The cost of the gear they get is usually in line with what they are stealing.
My personal favorite wrench to throw into any plan is that while the characters remember to clear the security camera footage and get super paranoid about clearing their Matrix tracks, they forgot to look for the hobo who saw the whole thing hiding under garbage across the street.

[ShadowDragon8685]

My personal favorite wrench to throw into any plan is that while the characters remember to clear the security camera footage and get super paranoid about clearing their Matrix tracks, they forgot to look for the hobo who saw the whole thing hiding under garbage across the street.

You can only zap them with this once.

Afterwards, they will adopt one of two plans.

[1]: If they're very, very nice, will involve Super Squirts loaded with DMSO+Laés.
[2]: Far more likely, they'll adopt a 'no witnesses' policy, shoot every living thing around, and firebomb any place where any living thing could be hiding.

[_Pax._]

The Runners may not be able to, but the players can if you're pulling ridiculous shenanigans like this.

Anyone who considers "play by the fucking rules" to be ridiculous shenanigans ...?

Wouldn't be a player at my table longer than it took me to say "don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out", in the first place.

If you're making them pick suicidal fights out of some single-minded insistence on "game balance" over a stupid negative quality which has been paid off in cash, then you are the problem.

If they don't understand the verys imple concept "all negative qualities must be paid off with karma", then they're ... well, see above.

[Fortinbras]

You can only zap them with this once.

Afterwards, they will adopt one of two plans.

[1]: If they're very, very nice, will involve Super Squirts loaded with DMSO+Laés.
[2]: Far more likely, they'll adopt a 'no witnesses' policy, shoot every living thing around, and firebomb any place where any living thing could be hiding.

You'd think so, but it happens more often than you think. It's usually because they get so tunnel vision focused on making sure they haven't left any Matrix/Astral tracks that they don't ask "Is anyone around?"
Plus, sometimes they don't know who it was that turned them in and often just assume it was some minor rule exploit I used.
While firebombs bring fire departments & Knight Errant and turn simple jobs into war zones, a simple Detect Life spell and some Stick & Shocks do the trick too. So would a bribe of bottle of cheap booze. Or ski masks. Or a million other little things that just slip your mind.

It's never the high tech crime fighting gadgets that get you; it's usually dropping a dry cleaning receipt or something.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Anyone who considers "play by the fucking rules" to be ridiculous shenanigans ...?

Wouldn't be a player at my table longer than it took me to say "don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out", in the first place.

And then the rest of the table follows them for you being ridiculous and unreasonable.

If they don't understand the very simple concept "all negative qualities must be paid off with karma", then they're ... well, see above.

Ah, so I don't actually have to pay in cash, then?

So instead of paying Big Jimmy the amount I owe him, I completely stiff him altogether, including on the interest, duck his collections agents until I've built up the Karma necessary to buy off the debt, spend it no matter where I am, and he's given up the hunt and will ignore it even if I move back into my old doss.

Good to know.


ProTip: You only get to have it one way or another. Pay in cash, or pay in Karma. Payment in one settles the other, that simple.

[bannockburn]

How about someone scrounges up the link to the last In Debt discussion and we let it rest? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Oh look, here it starts: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1166755

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This cuts both ways, though. If someone picks up a negative quality in play, don't they get extra karma for it?

Depends upon the situation, but oftentimes, at our table, this is compensated for with acquisition of Contacts, or a corresponding positive quality that goes hand in hand with the reason the negative quality was added. That said...Not always.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ah, so I don't actually have to pay in cash, then?

So instead of paying Big Jimmy the amount I owe him, I completely stiff him altogether, including on the interest, duck his collections agents until I've built up the Karma necessary to buy off the debt, spend it no matter where I am, and he's given up the hunt and will ignore it even if I move back into my old doss.

Good to know.


ProTip: You only get to have it one way or another. Pay in cash, or pay in Karma. Payment in one settles the other, that simple.

You are wrong here... The particular Quality in Question requires the you satisfy BOTH requirements. You MUST PAY BACK THE MONEY, WITH THE SPECIFIED MONTHLY INTEREST, AND YOU MUST PAY BACK 2x THE BP (IN KARMA) RECIEVED. Anything Else is simply a House Rule. House Rules have no place in a RAW Discussion, unless they are described as such in the discussion. Sad that you cannot actually see that. *shrug*

[Mäx]

And then the rest of the table follows them for you being ridiculous and unreasonable.

Except that he's not being anything like that.

[_Pax._]

And then the rest of the table follows them for you being ridiculous and unreasonable.

Like I said, anyone who considers "play by the fucking rules" to be ridiculous and/or unreasonable, is not someone I want to play with. So I wouldn't miss a one of them.

Fortunately, your prognostications of doom are proven unfounded. None of my six (and it'd be more, if I let people continue joining) of my players don't seem to have the slightest problem with playing by the rules.

Ah, so I don't actually have to pay in cash, then?

Technically, no ... at least, that's not the ONLY kind of "and roleplay how it happens" solution possible. You could pay in favors, for example. But regard,ess, you pay the karma or you don't get out of the NQ.

ProTip: You only get to have it one way or another. Pay in cash, or pay in Karma. Payment in one settles the other, that simple.

ProTip: I get to have it both ways. It works that way with every NQ. You have to pay Karma, and, you have to have a justification for removing the NQ. Zeroing the cash value of the debt is the justification; paying the karma actually takes the NQ off your sheet.

Got an Enemy? Guess what, you have to roleplay out a solution to the enmity and pay the karma. Just doing one or the other isn't enough.

Got a Bad Rep? Guess what, you have to roleplay out how you clear your name and pay the karma. Just doing one or the other isn't enough.

Got an Addiction? Guess what, you have to roleplay out kicking the habit and pay the karma. Just doing one or the other isn't enough.

Every NQ in every book works the same way: to remove it from your character, you have to roleplay how the character solves the problem and pay karma. In Debt is no exception.

[_Pax._]

Or ski masks.

Ballistic Masks are God's gift to shadowrunners.

That said, I always assume that 'runners in my game cover their face (and other "distinguishing marks") as best they can, and the circumstances allow.

[CanRay]

Ah, so I don't actually have to pay in cash, then?

So instead of paying Big Jimmy the amount I owe him, I completely stiff him altogether, including on the interest, duck his collections agents until I've built up the Karma necessary to buy off the debt, spend it no matter where I am, and he's given up the hunt and will ignore it even if I move back into my old doss.

Good to know.

"In other news today, James "Big Jimmy" Finuchi, alleged crime boss and lone shark, was found dead when his house exploded in what the officials are calling 'A freak barbeque accident'. Reports from the Police indicate that, if Mr. Finuchi did have a Lone Shark ring, he kept the details on a notepad that he kept on his person at all times..."

"Wow, Karma really is a slitch!"

[ShadowDragon8685]

"In other news today, James "Big Jimmy" Finuchi, alleged crime boss and lone shark, was found dead when his house exploded in what the officials are calling 'A freak barbeque accident'. Reports from the Police indicate that, if Mr. Finuchi did have a Lone Shark ring, he kept the details on a notepad that he kept on his person at all times..."

"Wow, Karma really is a slitch!"

That's not necessarily Karma. That could be doing the math and deciding that paying your Fixer to play Johnson and put out a hit on Big Jimmy is cheaper than paying off Big Jimmy. Probably has something to do with the fact that you tried paying Big Jimmy off in cold hard cash, and he keeps sending guys to try and claim your interest payments even though you have none.


That said, I like your explanation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



[e]Oh man, I can't believe I didn't see this before... "Lone Shark?" What, is that Lone Star's marine enforcement division? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CanRay]

[e]Oh man, I can't believe I didn't see this before... "Lone Shark?" What, is that Lone Star's marine enforcement division? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If it is, I'm sure the name has a double-meaning with how crooked Lone Star is!

[ShadowDragon8685]

If it is, I'm sure the name has a double-meaning with how crooked Lone Star is!

Or alternatively, Lone Shark is what Lone Star calls their black-ops shadow loans division. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Wounded Ronin]

According to RAW, the only way to pay off a NQ is with karma. The In Debt quality is no exception, although you are quite welcome to house rule it otherwise.

For the record, in my game I allow In Debt to be paid off with cash only (a house rule), but until the debt is paid off the PC will be hassled big time by Sopranos-esque made men, and God forbid they are stupid enough to fight back.

What, you don't want to run a Punisher campaign?

[CanRay]

What, you don't want to run a Punisher campaign?

I might be tempted with the right player.