Do SR characters PAY for things?, Why do these criminal mastermind groups use money? Options

[Yerameyahu]

That's what I'm saying, though: Erased is already an issue even at chargen where it's somewhat constrained. The GM should be very leery of the *whole* gang suddenly having 'good explanations' for it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I may not have been clear about the balance factor in my question; good explanation goes without saying.

[Speed Wraith]

That's what I'm saying, though: Erased is already an issue even at chargen where it's somewhat constrained. The GM should be very leery of the *whole* gang suddenly having 'good explanations' for it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I may not have been clear about the balance factor in my question; good explanation goes without saying.

Is it any worse than taking Debt and expecting to not pay it off with Karma, but just cash?

Anyway, skip over my post and go to his, sure! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) It is something deserving of its own quest, there is your balancing factor. Characters want to be Erased? You're going to have to find someone that specializes in such a service and work out an arrangement. Another balancing factor is that it really doesn't have to be permanent. Systems can be upgraded or patched, weakening the Quality or eliminating it altogether. Granted, this isn't something I'd do unless the players were seriously abusing it or a story demanded it (in which case it may be a temporary disruption), but given the text of the Quality, it is a possibility.

[Yerameyahu]

You mean, 'is it any worse than basically the worst thing I can think of?'? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Anyway, I skipped yours because yours made sense and didn't need comment. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Hehe.

[Speed Wraith]

You mean, 'is it any worse than basically the worst thing I can think of?'? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Anyway, I skipped yours because yours made sense and didn't need comment. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Hehe.

lol, on both accounts! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Geeze, stupid Friday before a three-day-weekend, I'm so bored I'm refreshing DS constantly (along with a few other sites) just trying to kill time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Which is dumb because if I'm going to ignore work, I should at least be working on something for one of my games.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Is it any worse than taking Debt and expecting to not pay it off with Karma, but just cash?

Why in the world wouldn't you be able to pay off In Debt with cash?

I mean, that's kind of the point. You're not in the hock to Buttercup (hopefully!,) you took out a loan from some ruthless, but fair, people.

If you stroll up to their place of business and smack down an ebony credstick with 100% of your outstanding balance gleaming on the front, 100% authentic... Why in the world wouldn't it be then paid off and discharged in full?



[e]And, more to the point, if you provably discharged your debt in full and they tried to hit you up for more, they are at that point no longer collecting what is their due, they are extorting you for money on absolutely no justification. The correct response to which is not to pay them with Karma, it's not to pay them with nuyen, it's to pay them in hot lead.

[Falconer]

Gee a large criminal enterprise with the means and will to actually enforce you to pay your debts to them is not going to engage in more criminal activities such as extortion after you have paid the debt? Or such as making some extra money by selling your information to the highest bidder (such as when some corp is actively looking for you and you're trying to hide in your safehouse). Hope you budgeted for hush money afterwards.

It's not a matter of hot lead... hot lead will only get you in deeper problem unless it's part of a larger strategy. A strategy which probably awards karma (which I'd force you to pay towards eliminating/reducing the quality). The rest of the PC's would get karma as normal for going along.

The problem is the quality is effectively a group contact in it's own right... and a powerful one at that. One you just pissed off by shortchanging them on interest. You owe them money. Simply paying off the money DOES NOT ERASE THE QUALITY. The rules make this clear. The only way to buy off negative qualities is with karma. So while you may no longer owe them cash, you still own the 30BP negative quality with a current balance of $0. And a 30BP negative quality is a big one, expect it to keep causing you problems for a LONG time.

Overall this is one of the worst qualities in the game. There's a big reason it's banned from missions and you're not realizing it.

[Speed Wraith]

What Falconer said. Bottom line is, it is a Negative Quality. It takes 2x the BP benefit in Karma to remove.

Two examples of dealing with In Debt:

Character A was indebted to the Triads for helping her get out of town and return to her sisters. Upon returning home to big sis, big sis got the Triads off her back by paying the debt off, however now Character A is indebted instead to her sister. Her family doesn't ask her to pay off the debt so much as they use it to influence or punish her, in grand familial tradition.

Character B had two In Debt Qualities. Paid the financial and Karma cost on one initially, now nothing hanging over that character's head. The second one was paid off, along with Records on File and Dayjob, with story and Karma (PCs as Johnsons, extracting themselves, yay (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ).

[CanRay]

Paying your owed amount ahead of time, thus denying them interest (which is how they make their money) will tend to piss off folks.

That's why Credit Card companies call people who don't leave a balance on their cards "Deadbeats" (Supposedly.).

[Speed Wraith]

I should add that as a GM I would allow a character to alter their In Debt quality to another quality if it makes sense.

Hypothetical: Character uses a real, valid SIN to secure an auto loan with a legitimate lending institution. Pays off the car loan, but guess what? Your credit history just became easier to track, take Records on File. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Falconer]

Another good way to slowly work off the quality is to have the organization blackmail the PC into being a debt collector. What you're philosophically opposed to busting kneecaps?

There's a lot of ways to do this just be creative. The key is to toss out karma, and earmark that karma towards paying off the quality.

[_Pax._]

Why in the world wouldn't you be able to pay off In Debt with cash?

BEcause you're also supposed to paay off Negative Qualities with karma. In Debt, included.

I mean, that's kind of the point. You're not in the hock to Buttercup (hopefully!,) you took out a loan from some ruthless, but fair, people.

Assuming that loan sharks (or worse, COLLEGE loan sharks) are "Fair" is basically asking for a bullet to the back of the head.

If you stroll up to their place of business and smack down an ebony credstick with 100% of your outstanding balance gleaming on the front, 100% authentic... Why in the world wouldn't it be then paid off and discharged in full?

Because they'd rather you paid interest every month for the rest of your life, then beat the balance out of your wife and kids once you're dead?

Face it: most "loans" you're going to get as a shadowrunner, are going to be from crime syndicates. They don't want their "clients" to pay off the principle of the debt. They prefer the nice, steady income the interest generates. And they don't bother with simpel Repo men, they have large Ork and Troll hardbodies with a penchant for bone-snapping on retainer.

[e]And, more to the point, if you provably discharged your debt in full and they tried to hit you up for more, they are at that point no longer collecting what is their due, they are extorting you for money on absolutely no justification. The correct response to which is not to pay them with Karma, it's not to pay them with nuyen, it's to pay them in hot lead.

BWA HA HA HA ... yeah, you have fun with that.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Why in the world wouldn't you be able to pay off In Debt with cash?

Quite Simple Really. To eliminate a Negative Quality, you must purchase it off with Karma. AS A GM, I would never let you eliminate your debt financially without a commensurate (and Concurrent) elimination of the Karma Debt. It really is as simple as that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[DireRadiant]

Why in the world wouldn't you be able to pay off In Debt with cash?

Go ahead. The character still has a Negative Quality for the equivalent amount of BP. Player or GM can figure out what it is.

The "fluff" of the "In Debt" being an amount of money doesn't take away from the mechanic of X amount of negative BP being used to buy a certain amount of character build.

An alternative is to say, ok, you pay off the debt with cash, lose an equivalent amount of karma/BP from your character please.

It's not like the Character got cash to begin with when choosing that Negative Quality, they got BP to use.

The crime syndicate doesn't want cash back, they want the BP/Karma back. The cash was just the interest.

[_Pax._]

In fact ... I now have a sixteenth houserule. I'm rewriting "In Debt", to read:

The character is indebted to a third party, usually an underworld
syndicate, large gang or corporation, chosen by the player
with gamemaster approval. For every 5 BP taken, the character
receives an extra 5,000¥ at character creation; this money can be
above and beyond the normal 50 BP cap for gear. The character
then owes her creditor monthly payments of 750¥ for every level
5 BP taken. If the character is unable to pay that interest amount
each month, the creditor may send someone looking for her.

Not the startling absence of any "final balance due" amount in there (while the interest payments remain exactly the same for any amount of money acquired). No, you just get X nuyen now, and owe Y nuyen per month until the end of time ... or until you spend Karma (and perform whatever other action(s) the GM determines are required) to buy off the quality.

[Yerameyahu]

Surely we can skip the whole In Debt thing in this thread? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[StealthSigma]

Surely we can skip the whole In Debt thing in this thread? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

House rule for the forum rules? Instead of no religious/political talk it's "No religious/political/in debt quality talk"?

[Speed Wraith]

House rule for the forum rules? Instead of no religious/political talk it's "No religious/political/in debt quality talk"?

Actually, in this case, the existing rule would be "no threadjacking" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[UmaroVI]

In fact ... I now have a sixteenth houserule. I'm rewriting "In Debt", to read:

The character is indebted to a third party, usually an underworld
syndicate, large gang or corporation, chosen by the player
with gamemaster approval. For every 5 BP taken, the character
receives an extra 5,000¥ at character creation; this money can be
above and beyond the normal 50 BP cap for gear. The character
then owes her creditor monthly payments of 750¥ for every level
5 BP taken. If the character is unable to pay that interest amount
each month, the creditor may send someone looking for her.

Not the startling absence of any "final balance due" amount in there (while the interest payments remain exactly the same for any amount of money acquired). No, you just get X nuyen now, and owe Y nuyen per month until the end of time ... or until you spend Karma (and perform whatever other action(s) the GM determines are required) to buy off the quality.

Actually, that's not bad. I would consider also allowing it for other obligations with equally serious consequences for not paying, like a sick child (hospital bills every month), being blackmailed by an unknown party for hush money, or the like.

[Yerameyahu]

Those sound good, UmaroVI.

[Mäx]

I think one one of the simplest changes is to just make it a non quality, just use the money related rules of it as a way for player to get extra "cash" in chargen that has to be paid back ingame.

[ShadowDragon8685]

You know what happens to crime syndicates who try to extort Shadowrunners?

They wind up on the hit list of people who are, let's face, it very powerful, very stealthy, and very portable. Sure, you may be able to crush them, but they're also capable of slipping away and surgically cutting your head off if you choose to pursue this game.

The Shadows are full of dead Runners who pissed off dons... And the graveyards for people whose names end in vowels have their share of dead Dons who've pissed off 'Runners. Maybe not as many, but there's also a lot fewer Dons out there to start with. Honestly, this shouldn't come as a surprise; fragging with people who commit violent acts of mayhem professionally is a bad idea, especially when you're clearly and egregiously in the wrong.

So when Mr. Runner walks in with the full amount of his debt to you in a credstick, and is fully paid up on his outstanding interest to boot... You let it go. You pocket your money, call it a profit made, and you don't instigate something that could turn very bad for the Family. Same as for Mr. Johnson - paying the Runners their blood money is always going to be cheaper and less trouble than trying to screw them. In this case, it's letting them pay you off free and clear that's going to be cheaper than making an enemy by trying to bleed them.



At the end of the day, everybody wants the same two things.
1: They want to make their nuyen.
2: They want to live to spend their nuyen tomorrow.

So yes, you could try extorting Mr. Shadowrunner. And maybe he'll pay you. Or maybe he'll rally his team to his side for this egregious treatment and decide to show you how Shadowrunners deal with people who play fast and loose with their money. Even if you win, in the end, it's going to have cost you a hell of a lot more than trying to bleed the guy for a monthly stipend would ever have been worth.

[almost normal]

Pretty much what SD said.

The Mafia is scary to average people. The father putting the occasional bet on the football game, with a wife and kids, has a reason to be afraid of the mob making a few house calls.

The Runner who just extracted a guy from a fucking Arcology? With no known address, vehicle, or job? With elite level skill in inflicting death? Yeah, that's the guy that takes down the all-too-public Mob bosses.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Pretty much what SD said.

The Mafia is scary to average people. The father putting the occasional bet on the football game, with a wife and kids, has a reason to be afraid of the mob making a few house calls.

The Runner who just extracted a guy from a fucking Arcology? With no known address, vehicle, or job? With elite level skill in inflicting death? Yeah, that's the guy that takes down the all-too-public Mob bosses.

Like you said, like I said.

Compared to the drek the Runner did to get the money he used to pay you off in the first place, exacting revenge on you for trying to cheap him will be simple. Your sources of finances are known to him; they are sources he can hit hard, especially since he's likely to have access to exotic means which are frankly beyond you, exotic means like heavy artillery concealed inside a panel van, or a magician chummer who can summon Force 7 Spirits of Fire to start burning your operations down. Sure, you have the nuyen to put a price on his head, but he has the means to take your head, too.

So really, is bleeding him for a monthly "interest" charge on a loan he's paid in full worth that kind of risk? It's one thing if he's trying to ignore what he legitimately owes you, that's a matter of honor, of reputation, of face. You let Mr. Shadowrunner slide on that, and sooner or later Mr. Football Bet thinks he can slide, too.

But it's quite another when he pays you off in full and you say it's not enough.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Like you said, like I said.

Compared to the drek the Runner did to get the money he used to pay you off in the first place, exacting revenge on you for trying to cheap him will be simple. Your sources of finances are known to him; they are sources he can hit hard, especially since he's likely to have access to exotic means which are frankly beyond you, exotic means like heavy artillery concealed inside a panel van, or a magician chummer who can summon Force 7 Spirits of Fire to start burning your operations down. Sure, you have the nuyen to put a price on his head, but he has the means to take your head, too.

So really, is bleeding him for a monthly "interest" charge on a loan he's paid in full worth that kind of risk? It's one thing if he's trying to ignore what he legitimately owes you, that's a matter of honor, of reputation, of face. You let Mr. Shadowrunner slide on that, and sooner or later Mr. Football Bet thinks he can slide, too.

But it's quite another when he pays you off in full and you say it's not enough.

When you do not also pay off the Karma Debt, it ISN'T Enough. You are taking a quality that MUST be paid off in Karma as well as in Nuyen. Don't complain when the characters get harrassed when they do not pay off that Karma Debt. You knew that was how it was going to be going in. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Udoshi]

When you do not also pay off the Karma Debt, it ISN'T Enough. You are taking a quality that MUST be paid off in Karma as well as in Nuyen. Don't complain when the characters get harrassed when they do not pay off that Karma Debt. You knew that was how it was going to be going in. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This cuts both ways, though. If someone picks up a negative quality in play, don't they get extra karma for it?