Hold out pistols, is there a point?, Trying to justify even trying to use the Options

[cutter07]

Being totally fair I realize they are very very concealable but 4L isn't much even if the target is unsuspecting and unarmored. Let say you use glazers which would bring that to 6M and do a headshot, thats only 6S, decent but very few times you'll be in a istuation vs an unarmored target. Anyone have experience where a holdout has saved some butt or scored a kill?

[Kanada Ten]

:wobble: :sleepy:

[Luke Hardison]

It's saved my hoop twice. Once it was a boot backup that the baddies never checked me for, and I got a chance to pop the guard in the back of the head at point blank. The other time, I pulled my backup and threw it across an alley, making the orc look the wrong way at a very crucial time.
Good as a combat weapon? No, not really. But you should ALWAYS have a backup.

[cutter07]

was thinking morrissey elite for my backup. Heavy pistol thump with light pistol size.

[Wireknight]

Stylistically, it never hurts your badass image to have an extension-rig holdout pistol in your sleeve for emergencies. Statistically, if it's got a smartlink-2 and is firing some kind of hollowpoint(or glazer) you could pull off a lethal headshot(presuming no helmet on the enemy) without too much difficulty(presuming your character is a decent shot).

But if you're not a badass with a smartlinked version, it becomes less useful. Still, it pays to have an ace-in-the-hole ranged attack for when melee just won't cut it.

[Moonstone Spider]

If you're an adept and can throw 18 dice on your pistols attack maybe.

But if you're an adept you can do the same with your unarmed combat, then add in Distance Strike and have a superior attack that can't be detected at all.

[cutter07]

Would be nice if there was a good holdout someone made from the design book. Something with a little more punch (even 6L with a 9 conceal would be sweet).

[Sunday_Gamer]

Use explosive rounds in your hold out =)

I know plenty of sams with 7 or 8 skill. Add in as many combat pool. I assure you, a hold out pistol can definitely kill someone, it can kill someone dead.

Not by "someone" I exclude the Troll with 35 Body and depleted uranium body armor.

Sunday.

[Arethusa]

[A Clockwork Lime]

Screw holdouts. The Walther PB-120 has the same Concealability, better Damage Code, AND superior range.

[Arethusa]

[cutter07]

yeah the walther aint bad but for 1 point conceal I co from a 6L to a 9m. With glacers and headshot thats a 11D. Not too shamby for a conceal 7, though a slivergun is only a 6,..

Why do I feel my backup is going to end up being a Remington 990 stuffed down my boot ;)

[mfb]

light pistols in general are for shit. you can talk all you want about style and in-character stuff, there's still no reason to carry one--you can get heavy pistols with decent conceal etc.

now, if light pistols and holdouts did base M damage, instead of L? we could talk.

[A Clockwork Lime]

[Arethusa]

Honestly, if you're not keen on houserules but acknowledge the idiocy of the canon system, something's probably quite wrong with you. hell, if you can't see there's something wrong with canon at all, there's still probably something wrong.

And while I do understand all the numerical issues you raise— they are quite valid— I find it a little absurd that a potentially very solid and very complete solution to the problem, which will never be reached through a broad interpretation of canon, has been absolutely ignored.

Anyway, yes, you're right. There's no point to light pistols and very little point to holdouts. Even machine pistols are fairly worthless in light of what you can get ahold of with SMGs and heavy pistols. Concealable holsters and clothing on top of that and you can walk into anything with those. There's no getting around the fact that it's awfully broken.

[A Clockwork Lime]

Err. Yeah. Settle down there, boss.

Once again, the original question was basically "can someone please explain what the point in a hold-out pistol is?" and "do you have any examples of how one was used successfully in a game?" Not "does anyone have any cool house rules on how I can make hold-out pistols more useful in my game?" So it's not surprising that there hasn't been a long, drawn-out conversation about said house rules. Especially since there's already a thread dedicated to such a conversation.

That's all I was saying.

[broho_pcp]

I am not sure about this, but...
Isn't the conceal rating for someone to notice while looking at you for weapons? What if they decide to pat you down. Even if it is under a coat in a cool holster, it will still be felt. However, there is a lower chance of a wrist/ankle/boot gun being found IMO. I do see a value in hold-out pistols, just not to much of one.

[mfb]

there are rules for that on page 236 of SR3. hilariously, it's easier to spot a weapon in a casual glance than it is with a quick pat-down.

[Arethusa]

[CardboardArmor]

Hold-out pistols, in my opinion, have two major uses.

You either imply threat of force with them, which is to say you hold the pistol against someone's temple and say something to the tune of "Move and I frag your brains, drekhead" to achieve your goal.

Or, if you fancy yourself the assassin type, a hold-out can fit most anywhere and not just in holsters strapped to your extremities. Again, you'd have to engage at fairly close range and be a pretty good shot with such a small caliber (hence, small damage) weapon, but the great thing about a hold-out is that after you geek someone with it provided you didn't leave residual evidence all over the place and prints all over the gun and casings you can just throw it away.

And that's the use for a hold-out pistol.

[Kagetenshi]

There's always that one flechette hold-out. 4M(f) can be good to have at parties. Conceal is something high too.

~J

[cutter07]

[Arethusa]

I'd like to take this time to point out that with street index, most light and heavy pistols will hit harder, be just as concealable, and cost almost half as much, if not quite a bit less. A simple predator is all you need, and even with a silencer, it costs less than a holdout.

I guess you do have a point with cavity concealment, though. Just that not many runners do that. Well, for work, anyway. Fun's another matter entirely.

[edit]

No, it depends on the GM as it's never explicitly stated whether the +2 gets the bonus from the coat or not. Some let you, some don't. In any case, the difference between 12 and 13 is practically never going to come up.

[The White Dwarf]

Hold outs do have a use in a canon game. Its just a very limited spectrum. It has to be used in a capacity where the extra concealability makes a difference, otherwise theres no point. And it has to be used in a situation where the attack can work around the disadvantages of the hold out to make it useful.

Examples include the characters who can throw 15+ dice at a pistols test, or characters with a SL-2 making aimed called shots around armor or to the head, etc. In all these cases, the low damage code of the gun is avoided; either the defender has tn2 but needs 15+ successes, or the defender needs tn6 from a non-armored ex-round shot and wont get enough to stage down; etc.

Of the hold outs, the two best are the Cavalier Scout (SA, highest Conceal, highest clip size) or the Walther Palm Pistol (higest Conceal, can fire once as a short burst for +2 power).

The right character with the right ammo in the right situation can make them effetive, its just a small band of use that most characters will either never see or never be able to make use of.

[mfb]

yeah, but holdouts aren't some kind of hard-to-acquire specialty item. they're weapons that a wide selection of characters should be able to make good use of.