Full Version: Hold out pistols, is there a point?
Being totally fair I realize they are very very concealable but 4L isn't much even if the target is unsuspecting and unarmored. Let say you use glazers which would bring that to 6M and do a headshot, thats only 6S, decent but very few times you'll be in a istuation vs an unarmored target. Anyone have experience where a holdout has saved some butt or scored a kill?
It's saved my hoop twice. Once it was a boot backup that the baddies never checked me for, and I got a chance to pop the guard in the back of the head at point blank. The other time, I pulled my backup and threw it across an alley, making the orc look the wrong way at a very crucial time.
Good as a combat weapon? No, not really. But you should ALWAYS have a backup.
Good as a combat weapon? No, not really. But you should ALWAYS have a backup.
was thinking morrissey elite for my backup. Heavy pistol thump with light pistol size.
Stylistically, it never hurts your badass image to have an extension-rig holdout pistol in your sleeve for emergencies. Statistically, if it's got a smartlink-2 and is firing some kind of hollowpoint(or glazer) you could pull off a lethal headshot(presuming no helmet on the enemy) without too much difficulty(presuming your character is a decent shot).
But if you're not a badass with a smartlinked version, it becomes less useful. Still, it pays to have an ace-in-the-hole ranged attack for when melee just won't cut it.
But if you're not a badass with a smartlinked version, it becomes less useful. Still, it pays to have an ace-in-the-hole ranged attack for when melee just won't cut it.
If you're an adept and can throw 18 dice on your pistols attack maybe.
But if you're an adept you can do the same with your unarmed combat, then add in Distance Strike and have a superior attack that can't be detected at all.
But if you're an adept you can do the same with your unarmed combat, then add in Distance Strike and have a superior attack that can't be detected at all.
Would be nice if there was a good holdout someone made from the design book. Something with a little more punch (even 6L with a 9 conceal would be sweet).
Use explosive rounds in your hold out =)
I know plenty of sams with 7 or 8 skill. Add in as many combat pool. I assure you, a hold out pistol can definitely kill someone, it can kill someone dead.
Not by "someone" I exclude the Troll with 35 Body and depleted uranium body armor.
Sunday.
I know plenty of sams with 7 or 8 skill. Add in as many combat pool. I assure you, a hold out pistol can definitely kill someone, it can kill someone dead.
Not by "someone" I exclude the Troll with 35 Body and depleted uranium body armor.
Sunday.
| QUOTE (cutter07) |
| Would be nice if there was a good holdout someone made from the design book. Something with a little more punch (even 6L with a 9 conceal would be sweet). |
Screw holdouts. The Walther PB-120 has the same Concealability, better Damage Code, AND superior range.
| QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime) |
| Screw holdouts. The Walther PB-120 has the same Concealability, better Damage Code, AND superior range. |
Which is why I started working on this, which, despite providing a potential sollution to this mess, was almost completely ignored.
Anyway, as for holdouts, they're awful combat weapons, but that's the point. These are things you take out to dinner, not on a run.
yeah the walther aint bad but for 1 point conceal I co from a 6L to a 9m. With glacers and headshot thats a 11D. Not too shamby for a conceal 7, though a slivergun is only a 6,..
Why do I feel my backup is going to end up being a Remington 990 stuffed down my boot
Why do I feel my backup is going to end up being a Remington 990 stuffed down my boot
light pistols in general are for shit. you can talk all you want about style and in-character stuff, there's still no reason to carry one--you can get heavy pistols with decent conceal etc.
now, if light pistols and holdouts did base M damage, instead of L? we could talk.
now, if light pistols and holdouts did base M damage, instead of L? we could talk.
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| Which is why I started working on this, which, despite providing a potential sollution to this mess, was almost completely ignored. |
No offense, but not everyone is keen on house rules, even good house rules. Especially in a discussion where the question is basically "what's the point in [such-and-such] as they currently stand in the rules."
| QUOTE |
| Anyway, as for holdouts, they're awful combat weapons, but that's the point. These are things you take out to dinner, not on a run. |
With a Concealability (for less than half of them) of only +1 over the Walther PB-120, there really isn't much of a point in any of them. Not a one. Like I said before, it's just as small, it's more versatile (any ammo type), has greater damage, greater range, and not insanely expensive. A gunsmith should easily be able to convert it to Ceramic Components (even though it's technically a Design option) or at the very least construct an all-resin version identical to it. So even that perk for a few of them is largely moot.
Not that lights are that great. I'd rather carry a Machine Pistol if I was going that route. But if for some reason I needed a pistol with a Conceal of 8 or higher, I don't see why I'd go for anything but a Walther.
But then again I've rarely found the point in having a Pistol with a Conceal greater than 6 anyway. Throw it in a concealed holster and wear it under a long coat, and you have a Conceal of 12. Conceal 14 is just barely (technically only a single point difference) harder to detect, whereas the difference between Conceal 11 and 12 is quite a bit more significant.
Honestly, if you're not keen on houserules but acknowledge the idiocy of the canon system, something's probably quite wrong with you. hell, if you can't see there's something wrong with canon at all, there's still probably something wrong.
And while I do understand all the numerical issues you raise— they are quite valid— I find it a little absurd that a potentially very solid and very complete solution to the problem, which will never be reached through a broad interpretation of canon, has been absolutely ignored.
Anyway, yes, you're right. There's no point to light pistols and very little point to holdouts. Even machine pistols are fairly worthless in light of what you can get ahold of with SMGs and heavy pistols. Concealable holsters and clothing on top of that and you can walk into anything with those. There's no getting around the fact that it's awfully broken.
And while I do understand all the numerical issues you raise— they are quite valid— I find it a little absurd that a potentially very solid and very complete solution to the problem, which will never be reached through a broad interpretation of canon, has been absolutely ignored.
Anyway, yes, you're right. There's no point to light pistols and very little point to holdouts. Even machine pistols are fairly worthless in light of what you can get ahold of with SMGs and heavy pistols. Concealable holsters and clothing on top of that and you can walk into anything with those. There's no getting around the fact that it's awfully broken.
Err. Yeah. Settle down there, boss.
Once again, the original question was basically "can someone please explain what the point in a hold-out pistol is?" and "do you have any examples of how one was used successfully in a game?" Not "does anyone have any cool house rules on how I can make hold-out pistols more useful in my game?" So it's not surprising that there hasn't been a long, drawn-out conversation about said house rules. Especially since there's already a thread dedicated to such a conversation.
That's all I was saying.
Once again, the original question was basically "can someone please explain what the point in a hold-out pistol is?" and "do you have any examples of how one was used successfully in a game?" Not "does anyone have any cool house rules on how I can make hold-out pistols more useful in my game?" So it's not surprising that there hasn't been a long, drawn-out conversation about said house rules. Especially since there's already a thread dedicated to such a conversation.
That's all I was saying.
I am not sure about this, but...
Isn't the conceal rating for someone to notice while looking at you for weapons? What if they decide to pat you down. Even if it is under a coat in a cool holster, it will still be felt. However, there is a lower chance of a wrist/ankle/boot gun being found IMO. I do see a value in hold-out pistols, just not to much of one.
Isn't the conceal rating for someone to notice while looking at you for weapons? What if they decide to pat you down. Even if it is under a coat in a cool holster, it will still be felt. However, there is a lower chance of a wrist/ankle/boot gun being found IMO. I do see a value in hold-out pistols, just not to much of one.
there are rules for that on page 236 of SR3. hilariously, it's easier to spot a weapon in a casual glance than it is with a quick pat-down.
| QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime) |
| Err. Yeah. Settle down there, boss. Once again, the original question was basically "can someone please explain what the point in a hold-out pistol is?" and "do you have any examples of how one was used successfully in a game?" Not "does anyone have any cool house rules on how I can make hold-out pistols more useful in my game?" So it's not surprising that there hasn't been a long, drawn-out conversation about said house rules. Especially since there's already a thread dedicated to such a conversation. That's all I was saying. |
Sorry if that came across wrong; not trying to shove this down your throat. In fact, your comment wasn't really what frustrated me (see cutter07's post). I just felt that what it's come down to is the fact that there is no use for holdouts without at least some houseruling, and preferably more— and, that said, that it is something the community should discuss.
I should also point out that it isn't like we were really staying exactly on topic to begin with. Doubly so when the first question is basically answerable with a flat no.
| QUOTE (broho_pcp) |
| I am not sure about this, but... Isn't the conceal rating for someone to notice while looking at you for weapons? What if they decide to pat you down. Even if it is under a coat in a cool holster, it will still be felt. However, there is a lower chance of a wrist/ankle/boot gun being found IMO. I do see a value in hold-out pistols, just not to much of one. |
I don't believe SR has rules for physical searches as opposed to visual ones, though it damn well should. That said, numerically, there's just no real reason to go with a weapon that is infinitely less potent and only uselessly more concealable.
[edit: my mistake; somehow missed those rules, though I guess they obviously need fixing]
Hold-out pistols, in my opinion, have two major uses.
You either imply threat of force with them, which is to say you hold the pistol against someone's temple and say something to the tune of "Move and I frag your brains, drekhead" to achieve your goal.
Or, if you fancy yourself the assassin type, a hold-out can fit most anywhere and not just in holsters strapped to your extremities. Again, you'd have to engage at fairly close range and be a pretty good shot with such a small caliber (hence, small damage) weapon, but the great thing about a hold-out is that after you geek someone with it provided you didn't leave residual evidence all over the place and prints all over the gun and casings you can just throw it away.
And that's the use for a hold-out pistol.
You either imply threat of force with them, which is to say you hold the pistol against someone's temple and say something to the tune of "Move and I frag your brains, drekhead" to achieve your goal.
Or, if you fancy yourself the assassin type, a hold-out can fit most anywhere and not just in holsters strapped to your extremities. Again, you'd have to engage at fairly close range and be a pretty good shot with such a small caliber (hence, small damage) weapon, but the great thing about a hold-out is that after you geek someone with it provided you didn't leave residual evidence all over the place and prints all over the gun and casings you can just throw it away.
And that's the use for a hold-out pistol.
There's always that one flechette hold-out. 4M(f) can be good to have at parties. Conceal is something high too.
~J
~J
| QUOTE |
| Err. Yeah. Settle down there, boss. |
My thoughts exactly. Increase your medication.
jkingI think clockwork nailed it on the head. I GM only plays with his houserules and very very few at that. He isn't very open minded when it comes to thinking "out the box" even if the original rules are dumb <cough> dodge rolls <cough>
While cannon is broke its mostly the same broke crap from Fields of fire, which is old hat by now. Can't really complain when they still have a broken ass 12m pistol for 1000 bucks (The gyrojet, works underwater for God's sake).
Yes holdouts are small but the punch (4L to 9M) is pretty big between the biggest holdout (8 conceal) and the smallest heavy pistol (7 conceal) making hold outs, and lights for that matter nearly worthless. Also its only 550 and has a built is laser sight. Kinda hard to beat that. And a .5 street index, perfect when you want to tape the trigger/handle, sneak it in, get a headshot, and pull a Godfather "drop and walk" special.
On top of that more then half of the hold-outs are SS and have tiny ammo capacity making it seem like the only people using these are seedy back alley types for 1st runs.
Just wondering if the Elite with glasers (11S) is the best I can go for as a backup. It would be 7+2=(9)+4 = 13 conceal right?
I'd like to take this time to point out that with street index, most light and heavy pistols will hit harder, be just as concealable, and cost almost half as much, if not quite a bit less. A simple predator is all you need, and even with a silencer, it costs less than a holdout.
I guess you do have a point with cavity concealment, though. Just that not many runners do that. Well, for work, anyway. Fun's another matter entirely.
[edit]
No, it depends on the GM as it's never explicitly stated whether the +2 gets the bonus from the coat or not. Some let you, some don't. In any case, the difference between 12 and 13 is practically never going to come up.
I guess you do have a point with cavity concealment, though. Just that not many runners do that. Well, for work, anyway. Fun's another matter entirely.
[edit]
No, it depends on the GM as it's never explicitly stated whether the +2 gets the bonus from the coat or not. Some let you, some don't. In any case, the difference between 12 and 13 is practically never going to come up.
Hold outs do have a use in a canon game. Its just a very limited spectrum. It has to be used in a capacity where the extra concealability makes a difference, otherwise theres no point. And it has to be used in a situation where the attack can work around the disadvantages of the hold out to make it useful.
Examples include the characters who can throw 15+ dice at a pistols test, or characters with a SL-2 making aimed called shots around armor or to the head, etc. In all these cases, the low damage code of the gun is avoided; either the defender has tn2 but needs 15+ successes, or the defender needs tn6 from a non-armored ex-round shot and wont get enough to stage down; etc.
Of the hold outs, the two best are the Cavalier Scout (SA, highest Conceal, highest clip size) or the Walther Palm Pistol (higest Conceal, can fire once as a short burst for +2 power).
The right character with the right ammo in the right situation can make them effetive, its just a small band of use that most characters will either never see or never be able to make use of.
Examples include the characters who can throw 15+ dice at a pistols test, or characters with a SL-2 making aimed called shots around armor or to the head, etc. In all these cases, the low damage code of the gun is avoided; either the defender has tn2 but needs 15+ successes, or the defender needs tn6 from a non-armored ex-round shot and wont get enough to stage down; etc.
Of the hold outs, the two best are the Cavalier Scout (SA, highest Conceal, highest clip size) or the Walther Palm Pistol (higest Conceal, can fire once as a short burst for +2 power).
The right character with the right ammo in the right situation can make them effetive, its just a small band of use that most characters will either never see or never be able to make use of.
yeah, but holdouts aren't some kind of hard-to-acquire specialty item. they're weapons that a wide selection of characters should be able to make good use of.
Dwarf, I still don't see what a holdout can do that an elite with a conceal holster and a jacket and glazer ammo can't. By canon, holdouts just have none of the benefits or uses real holdouts do. Yes, they have a little more concealability, but what difference does it really make between 12 and 14?
Holdouts exist for three purposes.
1, Load with capsule rounds filled with narcojet as a last-ditch weapon.
2, A weapon a GM can give gangers when he really doesn't want them to actually ever have a chance to hurt the players. Or to get their guard down.
3, Closely related to 2, it's for NPCs who want a little bit of pain in their purse. I've actually had holdout pistols pulled on me by female NPCs when they were hostages or felt threatened by me on the street. There's little chance of them doing damage even if they hit, but flukes happen("...What the fuck, did that NPC just default to quickness and roll 5 successes on 5 dice vs TN 8?" "Yes." "...").
1, Load with capsule rounds filled with narcojet as a last-ditch weapon.
2, A weapon a GM can give gangers when he really doesn't want them to actually ever have a chance to hurt the players. Or to get their guard down.
3, Closely related to 2, it's for NPCs who want a little bit of pain in their purse. I've actually had holdout pistols pulled on me by female NPCs when they were hostages or felt threatened by me on the street. There's little chance of them doing damage even if they hit, but flukes happen("...What the fuck, did that NPC just default to quickness and roll 5 successes on 5 dice vs TN 8?" "Yes." "...").
| QUOTE (Moonstone Spider) |
| If you're an adept and can throw 18 dice on your pistols attack maybe. |
Related to this is an amusing use for a holdout. An adept uses the gun - 'pop','pop','pop' - and each light wound makes the next TN to save harder. One empty clip later, the adept throws the weapon for enough damage to drop the unfortunate mook. And thus, Missile Mastery is proved to be the power of choice when handling light pistols. (I think the adept was rolling 12 dice for thrown and got very lucky...)
The other adept with the hold-out was a sword-specialist (a concept character) because it is a good way to make someone duck behind cover. As soon as the clip empties, he is standing about a foot away with an ares monosword and a happy grin...
If you already have a sword, why not an Ares Predator? It's many times cheaper, far more powerful, has easily 4 times the capacity, and is eminantly disposable.
In my group, his hold out pistol is the only thing someone* would not try to 'borrow'. They will try to borrow the sword but he is rather too fond of it to let that happen. Besides, a predator is too heavy.
* that someone being the player whose every D&D character has been a theif and who ends each shadowrun with more 'acquired' gear than the rest of us put together.
* that someone being the player whose every D&D character has been a theif and who ends each shadowrun with more 'acquired' gear than the rest of us put together.
I cannot imagine what ingame reasons you could ever have for being willing to work with a runner who was that unprofessional. That is really quite strange.
As for weight, well, we've really just been talking about mechanics, and weight means nothing to canon SR numbers. If you're intent on roleplaying, that is good, but there shouldn't be such a disparity between the mechanical operation of the SR world and roleplaying aspects that make the game meaningful.
As for weight, well, we've really just been talking about mechanics, and weight means nothing to canon SR numbers. If you're intent on roleplaying, that is good, but there shouldn't be such a disparity between the mechanical operation of the SR world and roleplaying aspects that make the game meaningful.
I think that hold-out pistols don't really come out as effective in SR. In a real life setting, I would imagine that having a gun pulled on you, whether its a hold out, or a big ass gun like a desert eagle or something, you'd be inclined to go for cover.
Under SR, since there's an unavoidable metagame component, when someone whips out a holdout you can easily go, "eh, probably light, staged to moderate, but I've got decent armor and Body", and ignore it.
That and SR doesn't seem to have rules to handle point blank shots. I imagine the intimidation factor of even a holdout pistol, held directly to your back or the side of your head, is enough in RL.
Under SR, since there's an unavoidable metagame component, when someone whips out a holdout you can easily go, "eh, probably light, staged to moderate, but I've got decent armor and Body", and ignore it.
That and SR doesn't seem to have rules to handle point blank shots. I imagine the intimidation factor of even a holdout pistol, held directly to your back or the side of your head, is enough in RL.
Hold outs pistols are at 10P-E.
Lights are at 8P-E.
Heavies at 6P-E.
Try applying all the rules and see if the Canon holdouts still are that much worse. Remember that sometimes the best place for a gun may in a handbag. A sec guard won't be hassaling a woman why she is carrying a pop gun in her purse, but he sure as hell would have some questions as to why she has that Predater tucked between her legs.
A sec guard may well detect both Hold out and Light pistols BUT he may allow the Hold out in, but keep the Light out! He manages to pass the Perception test for both, given that the gap between Lights and Holdouts is usually only 1 but still needs to pass the Security/Police Porcedures test which is the difference between 8 and 10. Take both tests into account, I can see why the Hold out may be used in a situation that requires discretion.
Lights are at 8P-E.
Heavies at 6P-E.
Try applying all the rules and see if the Canon holdouts still are that much worse. Remember that sometimes the best place for a gun may in a handbag. A sec guard won't be hassaling a woman why she is carrying a pop gun in her purse, but he sure as hell would have some questions as to why she has that Predater tucked between her legs.
A sec guard may well detect both Hold out and Light pistols BUT he may allow the Hold out in, but keep the Light out! He manages to pass the Perception test for both, given that the gap between Lights and Holdouts is usually only 1 but still needs to pass the Security/Police Porcedures test which is the difference between 8 and 10. Take both tests into account, I can see why the Hold out may be used in a situation that requires discretion.
re: the swordsman with the hold-out.
He is firing it left-handed, while running, with a sword in his right hand. He does not expect to hit anyone and the sword says 'intimidation' better than any gun smaller than a panther. Like in Snow Crash (c'mon 50% of you will have read it), street punks need a demonstration before they will back down from a gun but swords need no demonstration...
He is firing it left-handed, while running, with a sword in his right hand. He does not expect to hit anyone and the sword says 'intimidation' better than any gun smaller than a panther. Like in Snow Crash (c'mon 50% of you will have read it), street punks need a demonstration before they will back down from a gun but swords need no demonstration...
My characters often go with a Morrisey Elan with Hi-C simply because of the whole invisible to MADs thing. Under a long coat in a concealable holster it runs conceal 15, too. Of course, it's more of a psychological thing than anything else, since I"ve never had a situation where I could use it.
| QUOTE (Voran) |
| ....Under SR, since there's an unavoidable metagame component, when someone whips out a holdout you can easily go, "eh, probably light, staged to moderate, but I've got decent armor and Body", and ignore it..... |
Which is where NPCs start packing Arethusa's Problem Solvers...the bigger badder ones with Ex-Ex. Even with skills 6 (assuming they aren't dealing with complete amateurs here) they'll sit up and take notice when 12 dice, including CP, from that little toy cellphone gun stages up twice to 6D. The high Bod troll/sam still might shrug it off, like they do everything short of autocannons, but at least it will get their attention.
That isnt a good thing...
The sammy will still go "Bwahahahaha!"
And kill the guy who shot at him with the samurais urination: 12 skill....
(Urination: 1L Stun, Smartlinked penis, +8 to all actions if called shot due to yuckiness of it)
Fact: Holdouts arent worth it unless you go capsule DMSO+Gamma scopo or something.
Fact: Same for light pistols most of the time.
Fact: Heavy pistols are worth it, Machine pistols may be.
Fact: A fake ID as a Sportsman gunner should include permit for most things that arent sec or military grade.
The sammy will still go "Bwahahahaha!"
And kill the guy who shot at him with the samurais urination: 12 skill....
(Urination: 1L Stun, Smartlinked penis, +8 to all actions if called shot due to yuckiness of it)
Fact: Holdouts arent worth it unless you go capsule DMSO+Gamma scopo or something.
Fact: Same for light pistols most of the time.
Fact: Heavy pistols are worth it, Machine pistols may be.
Fact: A fake ID as a Sportsman gunner should include permit for most things that arent sec or military grade.
| QUOTE (Solidcobra) |
| Fact: A fake ID as a Sportsman gunner should include permit for most things that arent sec or military grade. |
In most civilized countries, you need a specific permit for every gun you own. Just being a sportsman gunner doesn't include a billion permits for every kind of gun imaginable with every possible serial number. Unless I completely misunderstood you.
Warning, house rule ahead: In my games, hold-out pistols are not really even differentiated from any other pistols in many cases. The Damage Code difference between a large frame pistol and a hold-out might be -1 Power. 8M base damage hold-outs are not especially hard to come by. The ranges still suck, but that doesn't matter in most cases.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| In most civilized countries, you need a specific permit for every gun you own. |
I live in GA, and we don't need a permit at all unless you want to carry a concealed handgun. You just have to be 18 to purchase a rifle, and 21 to purchase a pistol. I have a concealed carry permit, and that applies to any handgun I own.
Technically there should be some kind of ID that can, Legally, Carry around mostly any kind of personal firearm. Not SMGs but anything from streetliners to Manhunters. You know? "License to bear firearms." Or something, Might have to include "License to bear firearms in UCAS, Ares, Shiawase, Renraku, Aztechnology." etc.etc...
But it should be possible to walk around saying that you legally can swing your pistol around with the right ID.
But it should be possible to walk around saying that you legally can swing your pistol around with the right ID.
| QUOTE (Capt. Dave @ Apr 17 2004, 04:28 PM) | ||
I live in GA, and we don't need a permit at all unless you want to carry a concealed handgun. You just have to be 18 to purchase a rifle, and 21 to purchase a pistol. I have a concealed carry permit, and that applies to any handgun I own. |
You didn't notice the word "civilized"?
| QUOTE (Capt. Dave) | ||
I live in GA, and we don't need a permit at all unless you want to carry a concealed handgun. You just have to be 18 to purchase a rifle, and 21 to purchase a pistol. I have a concealed carry permit, and that applies to any handgun I own. |
Which of course, will spark the debate on whether or not Georgia is 'civilized country.'
Damn, he beat me to it.
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| You didn't notice the word "civilized"? |
Har har. I'll have to tell Cletus about that one. Ass.
GA's just like any other state, you have to take the bad with the good.
| QUOTE (Capt. Dave) | ||
Har har. I'll have to tell Cletus about that one. Ass. GA's just like any other state, you have to take the bad with the good. |
Couldn't i just pass on the whole thing?
P.S. Sorry, just couldn't pass when you lobbed up that softball pitch.
What I meant was that if a firearm is illegal to own without a permit and you do require a permit for it, you will require a separate permit for every and each gun you own. In Georgia, then, a firearm is not illegal and thus doesn't require a Legal Code at all.
| QUOTE (Solidcobra) |
| Technically there should be some kind of ID that can, Legally, Carry around mostly any kind of personal firearm. |
Why should there be such an ID? Certainly in some areas of the world such things might exist, but that doesn't mean that it should be SR canon. AFAIK, it is not common even in the US to be allowed to carry around personal firearms in major cities without any separate permit of any kind. It might be so in (some of) the States that you handle guns on your own property or in some backwoods areas without hassle without separate permits.
Apparently, it's also possible in some States to carry around your personal arsenal to a bus in the city center as long as you don't show it off without separate permits, but my personal view is that it would no longer be allowed in the massive majority of the civilized world in the 2060s (and indeed is not even now).
Ill tell you the reason... because if you use it as I stated there *is* no difference. In all examples given, or along that line, a hold out works just as well as anything els; because the character is smart enough to employ it in a situation and manner that minimizes its downsides.
So if youre a character that can make use of these in one of those ways, theres an advantage to use them because of the greater conceal. While it may not seem like much, a conceal 7 elite vs a conceal 9 hold out (which turn into 13 and 16 respectivly after a conceal holster and a long coat) is, after modifiers, a big difference. Rolling a 13 is hard, rolling a 16 is far worse (1 in 36 vs 1 in 72)... twice as good in fact.
There not the workhorse of the shadow industry like heavy pistols are, but theyre not totally useless either. Theyre almost exactly what they should be, a last ditch backup that has a chance to stay with the character to the end by being overlooked. And in some cases characters may be able to make more use of them than that last ditch effort.
So mostly harmless perhaps, but they have a niche that suits them well.
So if youre a character that can make use of these in one of those ways, theres an advantage to use them because of the greater conceal. While it may not seem like much, a conceal 7 elite vs a conceal 9 hold out (which turn into 13 and 16 respectivly after a conceal holster and a long coat) is, after modifiers, a big difference. Rolling a 13 is hard, rolling a 16 is far worse (1 in 36 vs 1 in 72)... twice as good in fact.
There not the workhorse of the shadow industry like heavy pistols are, but theyre not totally useless either. Theyre almost exactly what they should be, a last ditch backup that has a chance to stay with the character to the end by being overlooked. And in some cases characters may be able to make more use of them than that last ditch effort.
So mostly harmless perhaps, but they have a niche that suits them well.
| QUOTE (The White Dwarf) |
| Rolling a 13 is hard, rolling a 16 is far worse (1 in 36 vs 1 in 72)... twice as good in fact. |
Looking at the specific odds, the system is strange...
2 -> 5/6
3 -> 2/3
4 -> 1/2
5 -> 1/3
6 -> 1/6
7 -> 1/6
8 -> 1/7 (roughly)
9 -> 1/9
10 -> 1/12
11 -> 1/18
12 -> 1/36
13 -> 1/36
14 -> 1/43 (roughly)
15 -> 1/54
16 -> 1/72
17 -> 1/108
18 -> 1/216
Hmm... Time to go plot a curve...
Most states that allow personal carry utilize the "blanket" permit, ie one permit for all personal weapons. Many states have these types of laws. As to the whole carrying it on a bus thing, my license does not allow you to carry a weapon on pubic transport or on public grounds, such as schools and the like. This restriction also applies to any place that serves alcoholic beverages. Whether or not these laws carry into the 2060's is questionable. Just because a law applies IRL doesn't mean it applies in SR.
| QUOTE (Capt. Dave) |
| As to the whole carrying it on a bus thing, my license does not allow you to carry a weapon on pubic transport or on public grounds, such as schools and the like. |
That's good. There are enough guns in school yards already.
I guess that bit comes down to whether you consider the Permit to be a permit to own, or a permit to carry. I have always considered it the former, ie that you cannot legally buy a firearm with a 10P-E legality code unless you get a permit for it first, and the Legal Codes/Permit stuff in SR3 support this -- you have to have a permit to get the item in the first place.
The GM can, of course, remove the Legal Code of any item s/he wants. Owning most firearms could be legal in several areas in North America in the 2060s. In that case, the GM should also make up whether that only allows owning or carrying/transportation too. I cannot see why a separate "Sportsman Hunter" ID would be required for that. Less literally, a fake ID being a member of some hunting club(?) might help when the cops pull you over for speeding and notice the rifle in your trunk.
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