Some help with Astral for an inexperienced GM? Options

[Bearclaw]

Counterfact : Now with 100% more rules!



It'd have to be your house rule to ignore that.

I use a regular stealth roll if some one is actively trying to hide vs astral perception. I just make sure to use the proper modifiers, like no camo.

But the question now is do aura's glow through other things that you can't see through? My answer is "no". Unless there's an actual rule that says otherwise, the only reason for a bio-fiber lined box is so a mage can't stick his astral head in there and see what's in it. Not to keep the aura from leaking out.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I use a regular stealth roll if some one is actively trying to hide vs astral perception. I just make sure to use the proper modifiers, like no camo.

But the question now is do aura's glow through other things that you can't see through? My answer is "no". Unless there's an actual rule that says otherwise, the only reason for a bio-fiber lined box is so a mage can't stick his astral head in there and see what's in it. Not to keep the aura from leaking out.

THIS... SO MUCH THIS...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Counterfact : Now with 100% more rules!

It'd have to be your house rule to ignore that.

Except that When a person is trying to Hide against an astral perceiving character, it sets up a contested roll of Infiltration vs Assensing. There are already RULES for this in the book )Complete with Modifiers for astral Visibility). Anything else is FLUFF, as you indicated. Even the above is fluff, because it does not take into account active hiding.

[almost normal]

I use a regular stealth roll if some one is actively trying to hide vs astral perception. I just make sure to use the proper modifiers, like no camo.

But the question now is do aura's glow through other things that you can't see through? My answer is "no". Unless there's an actual rule that says otherwise, the only reason for a bio-fiber lined box is so a mage can't stick his astral head in there and see what's in it. Not to keep the aura from leaking out.

Of what material is your box composed of? There's no evidence that an aura is masked by clothing or armor, so why would a 16th inch cardboard sheet suddenly break the rules of the realm? If your answer remains no, that's fine, but then you need to house rule why aura shines through certain material and not though others.

Secondly, stealth is just silly on astral. You're in a pitch black room. A security guard is in the room stumbling around looking for the light switch. You roll stealth, he can't see you. The Guard goes Astral, and suddenly you're a lightbulb.

That's not fluff, that's not rules, that's not crunch, that's how the universe works. Describing it in print form is the only valid way we can understand how things react on the astral, and as it stands, there is absolutely no reason to insist that your astral aura changes because you're being sneaky. For most mundanes, it wouldn't even be something they could attempt to accomplish. It'd be like a blind man trying to pick out camouflage

.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Of what material is your box composed of? There's no evidence that an aura is masked by clothing or armor, so why would a 16th inch cardboard sheet suddenly break the rules of the realm? If your answer remains no, that's fine, but then you need to house rule why aura shines through certain material and not though others.

Secondly, stealth is just silly on astral. You're in a pitch black room. A security guard is in the room stumbling around looking for the light switch. You roll stealth, he can't see you. The Guard goes Astral, and suddenly you're a lightbulb.

That's not fluff, that's not rules, that's not crunch, that's how the universe works. Describing it in print form is the only valid way we can understand how things react on the astral, and as it stands, there is absolutely no reason to insist that your astral aura changes because you're being sneaky. For most mundanes, it wouldn't even be something they could attempt to accomplish. It'd be like a blind man trying to pick out camouflage.

And yet, how is that different from a person sneaking along, unaware of any cameras, with one right above his head? Apparently, you would not give the sneak his roll in that circumstance. Which is counter to the rules. What the box is composed of is irrelevant.

Stealth is Not silly on the astral, because physical objects are opaque on the astral, and block LOS (Yes, even Clear plastic/glass Windows block LOS in the Astral), so you can move around with a certain degree of confidence that you will be able to hide, even from Astrally observing entities. Any other assumption is just silly. That is Crunch and Fluff, counter to what you put on the above post, which was absolutely nothing. Your aura DOES NOT NEED TO CHANGE, because it can be obfuscated among everything around you. Everything ever written about the subject in Shadowrun supports that conclusion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Might try to look around on Dumpshock, as well... there are a ton of topics about this very thing, that have been hashed out over the years.

[Bearclaw]

You've gotten mad and started throwing a lot of things around. Let's try to deal with them one at a time.
First: So your position is, a person sitting in a cardboard box is visible on the astral plane?
Second: If the player was sitting in a dark room, he would defeat the security guard because of the visibility modifier. If the security guard turned on the light, or used astral perception, that advantage would go away. But if the player was also behind a plant, he still might go un-noticed. Right? Or are you saying that it's impossible to hide from astral perception using regular cover, even though that cover is opaque on the astral.

edit... Crap! Yea, what he said.

[almost normal]

You've gotten mad a started throwing a lot of things around. Let's try to deal with them one at a time.
First: So your position is, a person sitting in a cardboard box is visible on the astral plane?
Second: If the player was sitting in a dark room, he would defeat the security guard because of the visibility modifier. If the security guard turned on the light, or used astral perception, that advantage would go away. But if the player was also behind a plant, he still might go un-noticed. Right? Or are you saying that it's impossible to hide from astral perception using regular cover, even though that cover is opaque on the astral.

I'm rarely angry, though often mad.

1. My position is : Maybe. Clothes and armor don't block astral. Auras (Depending on the definition of vibrant) may also produce noise, which is pretty hard to show in art, but would readily explain how thick plated armor couldn't stop an aura, but a drywall might.

2. I'm saying without the use of magic or strong social engineering, it's extremely unlikely you could hide in plain sight. (Almost) impossible if you don't even have a frame of reference to what 'plain sight' is.

3. There is obviously contradictory information, so claiming that only one possible interpretation exists, or that the argument has been had and settled in the past is clearly ignorant.

[almost normal]

That is Crunch and Fluff, counter to what you put on the above post, which was absolutely nothing.

Don't be an asshole. It adds nothing to the conversation. If you don't want to converse, leave.

[Bearclaw]

So you can't see through glass astrally. How close would I need to be to that piece of glass before you could see me from the other side? Since glass isn't more or less opaque than anything else on the astral, that answer would apply to just about everything else, right?

[almost normal]

So you can't see through glass astrally. How close would I need to be to that piece of glass before you could see me from the other side? Since glass isn't more or less opaque than anything else on the astral, that answer would apply to just about everything else, right?

Likely. Though that's determined if the only way to perceive things on the astral realm is through sight. Since it's not true in other realms, it's unlikely to be true in that realm either. Again, definitions of 'vibrant'.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Don't be an asshole. It adds nothing to the conversation. If you don't want to converse, leave.

I think you are the one being an Asshole, as normal, almost normal...

[Bearclaw]

As it's neither of your threads, maybe you should make a new one titled : Calling eachother names, and stick to the discussion in this one. As I'm not a mod, I can only suggest that this might be considered good manners.

Almost Normal, do you have any references to any crunch that could be used in a game if this discussion came up? I already have my opinion, but if I'm missing something, I'd love to see it. I definately wouldn't try to use your argument with my group, as I'd get lynched.

[shinyjam]

Though that's determined if the only way to perceive things on the astral realm is through sight. Since it's not true in other realms, it's unlikely to be true in that realm either. Again, definitions of 'vibrant'.

I think that's the problematic focus of this conversation, everyone is assuming visual sight instead of other sense when the last paragraph on astral perception p191 SR4a clearly state that "Astral Perception is a psychic sense that is not linked to the character's physical sight. Blind magician can still magically 'perceive'... deaf magician can 'hear' in astral space."

It's more than one sense.

Edit: Also to add my opinion about the point of shielded smuggling compartment is to make thing undetectable so bio-fiber should maybe fake as a mundane skin to block off the psychic sense from the content or something like that. I just can't see this working differently compare to the wifi-negating or airtight compartment of the same category.

[Bearclaw]

Which leads us directly back to the "in astral space, everyone can hear/see/smell/touch/taste you scream".
I need rules, damn it. Rules!

[Warlordtheft]

Look the rules don't specifically state that infiltration works against an assensing character. They don't specifically say no to it either. However, the rules do allow infiltration rolls vs hidden cameras and people (think about a case where two snipers are fighting). Astral sight is blocked by physical objects. A character can use those physical objects to hide behind and they also block line of sight (as does blending in with a crowd which would also work against astral perception). Ergo ipso facto: Astral perception vs infiltration is a legit mechanic.


BTW-Not going to dredge up the when to use disguise roll and when to use infiltration roll debate (basically consensus I got from that:If standing still, use disguise/camoflague, if moving use infiltration).

[shinyjam]

I need rules, damn it. Rules!

I doubt there's a real clear rule for it, so my real hope now is to wait for SR Return or Online to gives us a visual take on how it works. So far I think I saw on the demo that the mage can sense aura past the room or something. Not completely sure or can recall correctly.

Edit: It could also be a scan from before, so we can't really tell.

[almost normal]

Which leads us directly back to the "in astral space, everyone can hear/see/smell/touch/taste you scream".
I need rules, damn it. Rules!

I think that's because folk are too hung up on needing rules for everything, and unwilling to accept descriptions that aren't put into 'Rules Text'.

Like, we all know people have auras. We know auras are bright and easily perceived on the astral. Arguing that certain things might change that is only possible because we have no access to such a realm in our own reality. Arguments have arisen that seem silly to me, but serious to another. We wouldn't say 'It's possible wearing a green shirt makes you invisible to mundanes, because the rules don't say one way or another.' So why assume such arguments are valid for astral? I don't believe they are, although I don't believe it's an argument without thought either.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think that's because folk are too hung up on needing rules for everything, and unwilling to accept descriptions that aren't put into 'Rules Text'.

Like, we all know people have auras. We know auras are bright and easily perceived on the astral. Arguing that certain things might change that is only possible because we have no access to such a realm in our own reality. Arguments have arisen that seem silly to me, but serious to another. We wouldn't say 'It's possible wearing a green shirt makes you invisible to mundanes, because the rules don't say one way or another.' So why assume such arguments are valid for astral? I don't believe they are, although I don't believe it's an argument without thought either.

The problem that crops up, I think, is that people assume that just because the aura is "bright" that nothing else that is "not Bright" around it matters, and as a consequence it must be shedding light like a lightbulb does. That assumption is not actually supported with anything written, however. People can wear a "Loud" shirt and still go unnoticed. Happens all the time, in fact. Some people might notice while others are so oblivious to it that it might as well not even exist. *shrug*

[Bearclaw]

I think that's because folk are too hung up on needing rules for everything, and unwilling to accept descriptions that aren't put into 'Rules Text'.

Like, we all know people have auras. We know auras are bright and easily perceived on the astral. Arguing that certain things might change that is only possible because we have no access to such a realm in our own reality. Arguments have arisen that seem silly to me, but serious to another. We wouldn't say 'It's possible wearing a green shirt makes you invisible to mundanes, because the rules don't say one way or another.' So why assume such arguments are valid for astral? I don't believe they are, although I don't believe it's an argument without thought either.

Right. Auras are bright and easy to see. Like wearing a yellow shirt. But you are saying that it's like wearing a flashlight, and I disagree with that.

[almost normal]

It's an interesting enough argument for me to pop open the books when I get home. Till then, chummers, enjoy your weekend.

[Lord Ben]

Even if they see your astral form I imagine there are lots of patches of slime against the wall of a warehouse, etc. Moving slowly and quietly even if your form is visible just might mean they see a bunch of various astral forms. The stealth/perception then would be to notice something odd about that one particular aura instead of ignoring it. To use the eyeball in a cardboard box example the perception would be to notice it's an eyeball and not a cockroach instead of noticing there is an aura.

But really for the most part people aren't stealthing around through perfectly sterile clean rooms. And in a world with mages and magical security mundane cat buglers are going to know a little bit about the subject even if they're not magic themselves.

[LurkerOutThere]

But then what's the point of having Shielded Smuggling Compartment when Normal Smuggling Compartment would be better because the normal box won't 'glow' like the Shielded version? And all these are inside a car, so it's a box inside a bigger box.

If it's that easy to hide an aura then why not just make a 10 layer compartment that consist of thin boxes to completely block out the aura instead of cashing 1500 for a bio-fiber box.

Two reasons, the point of the astral shielding isn't to protect the astrally shielded smuggling container from astral inspection. If someone is going to stick their head into every surface of a vehicle their going to find that astral barrier. What it does help protect from is a nice "Detect Enemies/Gun/Things I might find suspicious" spell. or at least presumably it would.

[kzt]

Two reasons, the point of the astral shielding isn't to protect the astrally shielded smuggling container from astral inspection. If someone is going to stick their head into every surface of a vehicle their going to find that astral barrier. What it does help protect from is a nice "Detect Enemies/Gun/Things I might find suspicious" spell. or at least presumably it would.

Why would it? Now a ward would, but not just biofiber etc.

[Midas]

Even if they see your astral form I imagine there are lots of patches of slime against the wall of a warehouse, etc. Moving slowly and quietly even if your form is visible just might mean they see a bunch of various astral forms. The stealth/perception then would be to notice something odd about that one particular aura instead of ignoring it. To use the eyeball in a cardboard box example the perception would be to notice it's an eyeball and not a cockroach instead of noticing there is an aura.

But really for the most part people aren't stealthing around through perfectly sterile clean rooms. And in a world with mages and magical security mundane cat buglers are going to know a little bit about the subject even if they're not magic themselves.

Exactly. While I assume most astral entities can tell a human aura from mould or rats or whatever, if they only see the edge of an infiltrator's aura passing behind a crate (which blocks astral LOS), they might not be able to tell, and depending on their orders they might just assume it was a critter and not investigate further.

The "astral lightbulb in a dark room" situation may occasionally be applicable (and yes, in such cases the astral observer gets +6DP for the "obvious target"), but should by no means be the norm. Magic is only instawin if the GM is stupid/inexperienced enough to let it be so.

[Lord Ben]

Yeah, like I am. Luckily character creation is over and both PC's are adepts and neither can see Astral. So I can safely ignore the question for a bit.. heh.