Bows and Modifications, What can and can't be used? Options

[Deraj87]

I am making a character that is a dwarf adept that uses a pull bow. I am wondering what modifications can be put on one. Obviously anything involving ammo is a no. But what about a smartlink? I remember in SR3 it required a "Bow accessory mount," but it seems like SR4 follows the "If it makes sense, go for it" rule a lot.

[Critias]

Sure, probably. There's been "smartball" technology since Shadobeat or so, in the fluff. Smartlinks are already miniature ballistic computers that know how to track trajectories, range, windage, drop, etc, etc. So as far as I'm concerned, why not? A couple extra dice to the archers isn't the end of the world, I figure.

[_Pax._]

Just assume that "bow accessory mounts" come with all bows, as an optional attachment at least. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Deraj87]

That is what i figured. Despite that however, i cant find much that could feasibly be added to a bow.

I gave it a smartgun system, melee hardening, and an infrared flashlight. Also looking at a bayonet mount, or maybe an "under-barreled weapon"?

He also has a collapsible bow with rating 1 ceramics, and chameleon coating. For smuggling into places.

any suggestions?

Edit: should probably point out that with the smartlink, he will be rolling 21 dice when firing his bow, and Ready Weapon is a free action for him.

[_Pax._]

Custom Look
Flashlight
Personalised Grip (though the benefits are ill-defined - I'd say give it +1 die, like melee weapons)
Powered Slide Mount (if you wanted to have exchangeable accessories)
Tracker
Weapon Commlink

[Deraj87]

Custom Look
Flashlight
Personalised Grip (though the benefits are ill-defined - I'd say give it +1 die, like melee weapons)
Powered Slide Mount (if you wanted to have exchangeable accessories)
Tracker
Weapon Commlink

1)Probably going with it, as he is a definite steampunk themed gentleman.
2)Already have it on the combat bow
3)Maybe, as he can fire two arrows in a turn. It depends on whether recoil applies in that way to a bow.
4)What accessories would i need to swap out? Would i really need that many?
5)Also a definite possibility. Not on the covert one though, as i don't like that being used against me.
6)Wondering what this will give me, that a normal comm wont.

[Manunancy]

That is what i figured. Despite that however, i cant find much that could feasibly be added to a bow.

I gave it a smartgun system, melee hardening, and an infrared flashlight. Also looking at a bayonet mount, or maybe an "under-barreled weapon"?

He also has a collapsible bow with rating 1 ceramics, and chameleon coating. For smuggling into places.

any suggestions?

Edit: should probably point out that with the smartlink, he will be rolling 21 dice when firing his bow, and Ready Weapon is a free action for him.

In my opinion the 'melee hardening' part would make a bayonet-like attachment fairly silly. And trying to fit something designed as an underbarrel attachment for a gun can lead to inconvenient result as you lack the bracing given by shouldering a gun. Recoil-prone things like a grenade launchers are more likely to give you a facefull of bow than hit the target.

[Sid Nitzerglobin]

1)Probably going with it, as he is a definite steampunk themed gentleman.
2)Already have it on the combat bow
3)Maybe, as he can fire two arrows in a turn. It depends on whether recoil applies in that way to a bow.
4)What accessories would i need to swap out? Would i really need that many?
5)Also a definite possibility. Not on the covert one though, as i don't like that being used against me.
6)Wondering what this will give me, that a normal comm wont.

4) Different Scopes for different conditions, Improved Range Finder (reduce range penalties by 1)

6) Still looking for an answer to that one myself. Other than a spot to drop a weapon personality/virtual person so you can have a SR version of a sentient weapon I'm thinking they're just something else to get hacked. Can be useful if you need an additional link to run agents/other stuff on (like data translation if you were using an obselescent firearm or some such) I spose.

[FuelDrop]

Reduced weight is a viable option I believe.
It occurs to me that your GM might be willing to repeal the forbidden rating on a MAD-proof bow below a certain strength rating... by getting one made of wood. Likewise, a non-metallic easy-breakdown bow is far from unreasonable and shouldn't be horrifically illegal.

[Deraj87]

In my opinion the 'melee hardening' part would make a bayonet-like attachment fairly silly. And trying to fit something designed as an underbarrel attachment for a gun can lead to inconvenient result as you lack the bracing given by shouldering a gun. Recoil-prone things like a grenade launchers are more likely to give you a facefull of bow than hit the target.

I was thinking more along the lines of a sword of some kind. i picture a vibrosword or knife. but at the same time he has a sword cane.

4) Different Scopes for different conditions, Improved Range Finder (reduce range penalties by 1)

6) Still looking for an answer to that one myself. Other than a spot to drop a weapon personality/virtual person so you can have a SR version of a sentient weapon I'm thinking they're just something else to get hacked. Can be useful if you need an additional link to run agents/other stuff on (like data translation if you were using an obselescent firearm or some such) I spose.

5) Ah, but couldn't i upgrade the "gun camera" to do the same thing?

6)exactly

[Sid Nitzerglobin]

5) Ah, but couldn't i upgrade the "gun camera" to do the same thing?

If you've got space for all the ones you might need, sure. A slide mount would make for simpler, field interchangable vision enhancements though. I could certainly see the utility of this being subject to debate (and how many vision enhancements your character "needs" on his weapon) though.

[_Pax._]

To clarify, I wasn't suggesting "you should get these"; rather, I was just listing the ones that seemed possible for bows, that hadn't been mentioned in the two or three prior posts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[ShadowDragon8685]

Take the Increased Magazine size; fire two arrows at once, Robin Hood style.

Or better yet, take the two-slot "drum" version and fire eight, Men in Tights style. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Elfenlied]

Edit: should probably point out that with the smartlink, he will be rolling 21 dice when firing his bow, and Ready Weapon is a free action for him.

Note that you still only have 1 free action per pass, effectively allowing you to fire 1.5 arrows per pass:
1st pass: (assuming arrow is already nocked) Fire(simple action) -> Ready(free action) -> Fire(simple action)
2nd pass: Ready(free action) -> Fire(simple) -> Ready(free action upgraded to simple)

Rinse and repeat.

As for upgrades:
Smartlink + MRSI
Low-light Flashlight (if you have low-light vision)
Melee Hardening

Those are IMO the standard ones. MRSI isn't strictly necessary, but it allows for a lot of punch if needed. Some DMs dislike it, but ditching it doesn't really gimp you either.

[Xenefungus]

What Elfenlied said. Plus, it's stupid to use Krav Maga for a bow. Everyone knows that. And it makes for complicated turns, which is no good. Ditch it.
MRSI is just as stupid.

Better just ready the weapon, aim for [extra DV | armor negation] and shoot once a turn. It's that simple. And it's how bows are supposed to work. Think "Bows are SS weapons". Crossbows on the otherhand state they "allow for a faster rate of fire", so i guess they are SA.


Actually the Projectile weapon rules in general are a total mess. If your GM is a RAW-guy, there is just no way to use them at all because no action exists that lets you fire one. The usual attack action just lets you attack with "a firearm using SS, SA or BF mode". A bow is neither a firearm (it references precisely the paragraph about firearms and not projectile weapons) nor has it a shooting mode like SA. Hence, you cannot fire it.
I honestly don't know why they didnt just say "Bows are SS and require you to ready weapon prior to every shot. Crossbows are SA and don't need that action."

[FuelDrop]

What Elfenlied said. Plus, it's stupid to use Krav Maga for a bow. Everyone knows that. And it makes for complicated turns, which is no good. Ditch it.
MRSI is just as stupid.

Better just ready the weapon, aim for [extra DV | armor negation] and shoot once a turn. It's that simple. And it's how bows are supposed to work. Think "Bows are SS weapons". Crossbows on the otherhand state they "allow for a faster rate of fire", so i guess they are SA.


Actually the Projectile weapon rules in general are a total mess. If your GM is a RAW-guy, there is just no way to use them at all because no action exists that lets you fire one. The usual attack action just lets you attack with "a firearm using SS, SA or BF mode". A bow is neither a firearm (it references precisely the paragraph about firearms and not projectile weapons) nor has it a shooting mode like SA. Hence, you cannot fire it.
I honestly don't know why they didnt just say "Bows are SS and require you to ready weapon prior to every shot. Crossbows are SA and don't need that action."

I disagree, the rules aren't a mess... something that doesn't exist can't be a mess. RAW, the only way to hurt someone with a bow is to get close and use it as an improvised weapon (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Actually at our table this lack of ruling has made crossbows SS weapons rather than your proposed SA, which highlights another flaw with the lack of clear rules: a player migrating from your table to mine would find their crossbowman considerably less effective... simply due to the rules forcing a houserule on every table.

[StealthSigma]

What Elfenlied said. Plus, it's stupid to use Krav Maga for a bow. Everyone knows that. And it makes for complicated turns, which is no good. Ditch it.
MRSI is just as stupid.

Better just ready the weapon, aim for [extra DV | armor negation] and shoot once a turn. It's that simple. And it's how bows are supposed to work. Think "Bows are SS weapons". Crossbows on the otherhand state they "allow for a faster rate of fire", so i guess they are SA.


Actually the Projectile weapon rules in general are a total mess. If your GM is a RAW-guy, there is just no way to use them at all because no action exists that lets you fire one. The usual attack action just lets you attack with "a firearm using SS, SA or BF mode". A bow is neither a firearm (it references precisely the paragraph about firearms and not projectile weapons) nor has it a shooting mode like SA. Hence, you cannot fire it.
I honestly don't know why they didnt just say "Bows are SS and require you to ready weapon prior to every shot. Crossbows are SA and don't need that action."

Actions exist to fire bows. Shadowrun has catch all actions so pick your poison. Use Simple Object. Use Complex Object. Anything that does not have a dedicated action type can be lumped under either of those.

[Xenefungus]

Yeah, except that...nope.

Are you really trying to argue that this is supposed to be the right way? Is a bow simple or complex? That's definitely not how it should be.

[StealthSigma]

Yeah, except that...nope.

Are you really trying to argue that this is supposed to be the right way? Is a bow simple or complex? That's definitely not how it should be.

I said that they exist, not that they're the best way and it would be GM determination on whether the bow qualifies as a simple or complex object.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

What Elfenlied said. Plus, it's stupid to use Krav Maga for a bow. Everyone knows that. And it makes for complicated turns, which is no good. Ditch it.
MRSI is just as stupid.

Better just ready the weapon, aim for [extra DV | armor negation] and shoot once a turn. It's that simple. And it's how bows are supposed to work. Think "Bows are SS weapons". Crossbows on the otherhand state they "allow for a faster rate of fire", so i guess they are SA.


Actually the Projectile weapon rules in general are a total mess. If your GM is a RAW-guy, there is just no way to use them at all because no action exists that lets you fire one. The usual attack action just lets you attack with "a firearm using SS, SA or BF mode". A bow is neither a firearm (it references precisely the paragraph about firearms and not projectile weapons) nor has it a shooting mode like SA. Hence, you cannot fire it.
I honestly don't know why they didnt just say "Bows are SS and require you to ready weapon prior to every shot. Crossbows are SA and don't need that action."

The Action is : Use Skill...
The Skill is Archery

[Deraj87]

What Elfenlied said. Plus, it's stupid to use Krav Maga for a bow. Everyone knows that. And it makes for complicated turns, which is no good. Ditch it.
MRSI is just as stupid.

Better just ready the weapon, aim for [extra DV | armor negation] and shoot once a turn. It's that simple. And it's how bows are supposed to work. Think "Bows are SS weapons". Crossbows on the otherhand state they "allow for a faster rate of fire", so i guess they are SA.


Actually the Projectile weapon rules in general are a total mess. If your GM is a RAW-guy, there is just no way to use them at all because no action exists that lets you fire one. The usual attack action just lets you attack with "a firearm using SS, SA or BF mode". A bow is neither a firearm (it references precisely the paragraph about firearms and not projectile weapons) nor has it a shooting mode like SA. Hence, you cannot fire it.
I honestly don't know why they didnt just say "Bows are SS and require you to ready weapon prior to every shot. Crossbows are SA and don't need that action."

The krav maga isn't just for his bow, he also uses a sword cane in melee. Plus i like the 2/1/2/1 pattern.

I think my GM just figures it is the same action as firing a gun. After all, that is what makes sense. Something tells me that they wouldn't include a new action with different rules just for bows and the like.

[Marwynn]

Has this been changed?

The adept may may use the Quick Draw rules (p.137, SR4) to draw any weapon. not just pistols. The adept may draw and use a single melee weapon, missile weapon, throwing weapon or firearm in one action, and need not spend two actions to draw and ready the weapon and then attack: drawing and readying the occur in the action used for the Attack Test. If attacking with a weapon that requires a Complex Action, the adept may still draw and attack in a single Action Phase. If attacking with a weapon that requires only a Simple Action to use, the adept may draw and make two attacks in a single Action Phase. The adept must succeed in an appropriate Weapon Skill + Reaction (2) Test to Quick Draw.

Now, the second part seems to be for firearms since you only need to draw it once and not ready it again after firing. But it could also apply to bows, right? To allow you to fire twice per IP? Bows are Simple Actions to use. So an Adept with this could attack twice... though there's the oddness with the "drawing a missile weapon".

[Xenefungus]

Yeah, it boils down to only allowing to draw a missile weapon, not ammunition for it and ready the missile weapon with it.

[Neraph]

Yeah, it boils down to only allowing to draw a missile weapon, not ammunition for it and ready the missile weapon with it.

Small minded. What is the definition of "draw," for example?

Take Iaijutsu for either Bows or Arrows (whichever will make your GM happy) and enjoy two shots (at least) an IP..

[Xenefungus]

So you think that's how it is intended? One little feat to gain permanent double damage? I guess so...