How much do you up the price for speed runs? Options

[KarmaInferno]

Most of the price spike came from the increased resource requirements. We have a 7 person party and split profits (payment minus run expenses) 8 ways so after the 2 million in expenses we ended up clearing 250,000 nuyen each.

That's nice but it's not retirement money.

I would point out that some Shadowrun Missions characters will be lucky to make that much money in their entire career.

And some of the Missions involve opposition that needs anti-tank weaponry to take down.

Now, Missions does have a bit of a reputation for being a bit stingy with rewards sometimes, but you seriously are running at a power level far far in excess of most folks. If that works for your group, cool, but be aware of that.



-k

[Lord Ben]

The rules are the mechanics of the world. What they make possible shapes how the world is.

Yeah, some people play that way. Others look at the fiction and use the rules to replicate that game instead of bending the world around whatever mechanics he found.

[Emperor Tippy]

Yeah, some people play that way. Others look at the fiction and use the rules to replicate that game instead of bending the world around whatever mechanics he found.

The fluff is as bad or worse.

Seriously, have you been tag erasing all your food before you eat it? Do you tag erase all your clothes? Do you use a different gait on every run against an Ares subsidiary? Do you use any commercially available matrix program or matrix hardware? Do you have your ware built from raw materials by people you trust intimately? Do you use a commercial smart link system?

Then if you haven't been screwed, by the fluff, your GM is treating you with kid gloves. Virtually all food has RFID tags inside of it, virtually all clothes are RFID tagged (and the road is an RFID tag reader thanks to GridGuide, as is virtually every comlink you pass). Data Balkanization and data overload don't apply when discussing something as rare as runs and within a single corporate structure, if you didn't change how you walk and showed up on camera in multiple facilities then Ares knows that you did both jobs. All of the commercially available software provided by the corps is riddled with back doors and trojans that are uploading anything and everything from the system they are on to the parent corp for analysis (that NeoNet firewall your comlink has? It's uploaded all your files to NeoNet, including things like your cybereyes recording of your meeting with Mr. J). Commercial ware is likewise riddled with backdoors and hidden spy programs. That Ares smart link system you are running is uploading gun camera footage of every shooting you have committed right back to Ares Corporate just as soon as it get's within range of an acceptable transmitter (like GridGuide or someone's Ares comlink).

----
That is fully fluff supported shadowrun in the Sixth World. Now think about what you would have to do to be remotely safe and independent running in that world.

[Manunancy]

The Megacorps have quarterly revenues larger than the real life USA's annual GDP. The rounding error on their profit streams is more than enough to buy an entire division of SOTA military forces. That 10 million nuyen fighter jet that you look at and think is impossibly out of reach? Any of the megacorps could buy a thousand of them with the profits they made tomorrow and still have three quarters of their daily profits unused.

So what kind of security budget do you think an Ares SOTA R&D campus has? I'll give you a hint, it starts in the billions of nuyen. The problem the mega's run into isn't that they can't afford the best security money can buy, it's that the security can only be so good and depends on scarce resources.

Every building can't have a high force ward not because Ares can't afford to pay for a high force ward for every structure that they own but because their aren't enough mages in the world to put up that many high force wards. Every node can't have a high end spider not because Ares can't afford to pay for them but because there aren't enough high end spiders in the world to do so.

Skills are the scarce resources in the corp world, not nuyen.

Meh ? That's completely absurd - Ares might be a big and nasty corp, but there'd 9 others just about as big - there's simply not enough room, ressources and money on the planet to support anything like that sort of cash flow, the various AA and lesser corps and the governments all at the same time''today the USA's PIB is about 15% of the world's econmy, which would make the AAA alone 150% of it. Something's fishy here).

I grant you that on paper Ares and it's ilk might show that much value, but if today's economy is anything to judge by, most of that will be esoteric financial assets that translates as far less at ground level in hardware, peoples and places. Basicaly a lot of big numbers bouncing around the computerizd finance system with a relevance on the phyical world close to that aof a hamster running in it's wheel (i'm exagerating here of course, but that's the idea)

[Fortinbras]

I really didn't want to get into this. It's your game, you can play it the way you want. You asked my opinion and I gave it to you. I even prefaced it with the fact that it's just my stupid opinion based on what I dig and is worth precisely what you paid for it: nothing. There is no particular reason for you to care what I think, but you asked so I thought I'd share.
But since you insist...

Get a rating 6 Agent with a rating 6 Spoof program and it rolls 12 dice on the test. That allows you it to buy 3 hits per day.

You take away a die after every roll. That's 78 die total in 12 days. That's 26 hits on average, or 19 bought. Not enough.

You can sell a hacked lifestyle for half the value of the lifestyle for a month.

You can? Where is that a rule? Oh, you mean in Unwired where it says you can buy a hacked Lifestyle for half the cost. Just because it costs that much to buy, does not mean it costs that much to sell. The basic price for fencing gear is 30% of it's value. In this case that would be a Middle Lifestyle at 1,500 nuyen, if the GM lets you which he shouldn't because there is no rule for fencing services. The only thing close is selling a permanent Lifestyle.
But let's say such a thing were possible. That means there is someone, or likely multiple someones, out there with a bunch of comlinks with a bunch of copied Agents puking out Lifestyles 24/7. To me, that makes it a mass marketed item as common as leaves on trees. No sale.

But even if you were to do that, you're GM is still sleeping on the job because he isn't sending you any trouble. Where are the utility companies and police knocking down your door when they find you're cheating them out of nuyen? Where are the AIs coming in to nest in your node or the hacker gangs trying to IC you for needling in on their territory? Not only is your GM letting you get away with murder, he's sending you the bodies, buying the bullets and burning the corpses.
Oh, and most importantly, he's not following the rules. Either as written, as intended or even as imagined by anyone who ever picked up a pen to write a Shadowrun game.

Does your mage make less than 900,000 nuyen per month? If he has 6 Enchanting and 6 Magic then it means that he isn't running for money. He can buy 90 hits on the test to refine raw gold regents into radical gold regents, which means 90 radical regents and a profit of 10K per radical regent.

Again, that's 24 hits on average. 19 bought. Which wouldn't matter because you can only do a 28 day circulation ritual on your Magic score worth of reagents, which is 6.
And where is she harnessing this gold? Is that not a mission? Are there not corps and nations on top of that? That's like saying I can just go and grab some gold from the river. Even then, not all gold is a reagent. Reagents have a higher inherent concentration of mana than normal substances, which means harnessing them in intruding on someone else's mineral rights. Which you can do, but that's a run! Can your GM honestly not come up with any complications for stealing reagents?
But let's say she got her 6 reagents. Firstly, that's all she's doing that month because she's got to check on them every 8 hours. That means no runs and pretty much nothing else that month.
Don't know where she's getting this raw gold, much less this reagent gold, but let's say she's lucky. That means she's turned 60k worth of gold into 120k worth of gold. That she can now sell for 30%, or 36k.
God help her if she bought the stuff. Even at the 20% discount that means she bought 48k worth of gold to be sold for 36k. God help her if it's not gold, because nothing else turns a profit.
So if you can get your hands on 60k worth of gold reagent, that's not a bad deal. But getting your hands on that much reagents worth of gold should be a big deal. A very big deal. the next highest reagent only gets you about 2k a month.

The same sort of thing goes for "bodyguard duty" or "conning people" or whatever other imagined scheme you've managed to bully and brow beat out of your poor GM. There is a reason rules for getting free money isn't in the book. Its because the game isn't called Fixer or Wage Slave; it's called Shadowrun. You are a Shadowrunner because no other life will have you. All the rules for that stuff's cost are at the expense of game balance for Shadowrun. The rules for what Fixers or manufacturers earn aren't there because that's not what you do. To paraphrase Malcolm Reynolds "You do the run. You get paid."
Money is one of the things a GM uses as incentive. If you convince him that you get free money for doing nothing(other than saying "I do a thing. Give me money.") then money shouldn't be a factor in your game at all. Shadowrunners should be sweating the rent. Especially at 400BP. Less so as they get better, but if money is never a motivator for Shadowrunners, why is it there?

I get that y'all play fast and loose with the rules, which is your right. Do whatever and play however you want. Paint yourself yellow and call yourself Banana Man for all I care. But don't say "This is how Shadowrun should be" when clearly it's not how it was written, intended or played by anyone but you.
Especially from a group that's not good enough to pull off a single run from Missions.

[All4BigGuns]

You do realize the losing a die with each subsequent test is an optional rule, right Fortinbras?

[LurkerOutThere]

You take away a die after every roll. That's 78 die total in 12 days. That's 26 hits on average, or 19 bought. Not enough.

Loosing a die per roll is an optional rule, a widely held and much loved optional rule but an optional one none the less. Then again it's a wash as you probably shouldn't be allowing agents to buy hits anway.

[Fortinbras]

You do realize the losing a die with each subsequent test is an optional rule, right Fortinbras?

I'll consider it an optional rule when I find a GM who doesn't follow it.

EDIT: I'm clearly kidding here. I was pointing out that the GM needn't bow to the idea that a runner can write his own ticket for doing nothing. He has options and should use them. In any event, it just changes the hypothetical Lifestyle sell to 3k instead of 1,500.

[All4BigGuns]

I don't use that optional rule, myself, but then I don't see the point, as if they take long enough to do it (which is what extended tests show) then they should succeed at the end. The way to show how difficult it is is found in having a higher threshold (which tends to be higher for extended anyway).

As to the money issue, I agree that these guys are making too much, but it works for them. (It does remind me of the one game in SR3 I was in where the GM was foolish enough to put us on retainer for a corp at 2 million a month. We didn't even have to do crap to get it either, really.) That said, I think the 'sweet spot' for pay--let's use the starting 400 BP characters--should be somewhere between 12 thousand and 25 thousand per run, going up from there as they get more experienced. This gives enough for all those little expenses--which can add up quick--lifestyle costs and enough to seriously save for gear upgrades (which is character advancement just as much as karma spending for skills. Karma awards, in my opinion, should be 5 karma per session--not per run (in case a run spans more than one session).

[Fortinbras]

As to the money issue, I agree that these guys are making too much, but it works for them.

I agree wholeheartedly. Do what works best for you and your group.
All I ask is that no one call anyone else idiots because they don't play the game like you do.

[Halinn]

I agree wholeheartedly. Do what works best for you and your group.
All I ask is that no one call anyone else idiots because they don't play the game like you do.

That goes for you as well. You're incredibly hostile towards Emperor Tippy.

Also, you're wrong about enchanting rules. Emperor Tippy was talking about going from raw reagents to refined ones. The 28 day cycle is for going from refined to radical.

[Emperor Tippy]

You take away a die after every roll. That's 78 die total in 12 days. That's 26 hits on average, or 19 bought. Not enough.

That isn't the rule, it's an option a GM can use if they feel so inclined.

You can? Where is that a rule? Oh, you mean in Unwired where it says you can buy a hacked Lifestyle for half the cost. Just because it costs that much to buy, does not mean it costs that much to sell. The basic price for fencing gear is 30% of it's value. In this case that would be a Middle Lifestyle at 1,500 nuyen, if the GM lets you which he shouldn't because there is no rule for fencing services. The only thing close is selling a permanent Lifestyle.
But let's say such a thing were possible. That means there is someone, or likely multiple someones, out there with a bunch of comlinks with a bunch of copied Agents puking out Lifestyles 24/7. To me, that makes it a mass marketed item as common as leaves on trees. No sale.

It's a service that you can perform and that has a high market price. Whether or not your GM will let you provide that service in game is irrelevant to the character; it's still an option for them.

But even if you were to do that, you're GM is still sleeping on the job because he isn't sending you any trouble. Where are the utility companies and police knocking down your door when they find you're cheating them out of nuyen?

Requires saying "I don't like you following the rules so I'm going to just arbitrarily throw shit at you.". Hacking a lifestyle is allowed under the rules and what you discuss is what happens on a glitch or critical glitch; which buying hits prevents from occurring.

Where are the AIs coming in to nest in your node or the hacker gangs trying to IC you for needling in on their territory

So your GM is arbitrarily allowing enemies to track you/find you outside the rules? Nice. If the enemy can, under the rules, track or find you then the GM should let them and they should deal with you accordingly; but they have to be able to do that tracking under the rules.

Not only is your GM letting you get away with murder, he's sending you the bodies, buying the bullets and burning the corpses.
Oh, and most importantly, he's not following the rules. Either as written, as intended or even as imagined by anyone who ever picked up a pen to write a Shadowrun game.

No, you are the one who apparently doesn't know what the rules as written or intended are considering that you think an optional rule tweak is the rule as written and intended.

Again, that's 24 hits on average. 19 bought. Which wouldn't matter because you can only do a 28 day circulation ritual on your Magic score worth of reagents, which is 6.

Wrong, read Street Magic page 81. It's only radical regents that need a 28 day circulation, not refined regents.

And where is she harnessing this gold? Is that not a mission? Are there not corps and nations on top of that? That's like saying I can just go and grab some gold from the river. Even then, not all gold is a reagent. Reagents have a higher inherent concentration of mana than normal substances, which means harnessing them in intruding on someone else's mineral rights. Which you can do, but that's a run! Can your GM honestly not come up with any complications for stealing reagents?

That is what you have contacts for. You can buy it from the corps, and there are plenty of other regents that you can refine (although none with as extreme a profit). The amount you are refining is peanuts on a global scale, it's not enough to even be a real blip on the radar.

But let's say she got her 6 reagents. Firstly, that's all she's doing that month because she's got to check on them every 8 hours. That means no runs and pretty much nothing else that month.
Don't know where she's getting this raw gold, much less this reagent gold, but let's say she's lucky. That means she's turned 60k worth of gold into 120k worth of gold. That she can now sell for 30%, or 36k.
God help her if she bought the stuff. Even at the 20% discount that means she bought 48k worth of gold to be sold for 36k. God help her if it's not gold, because nothing else turns a profit.
So if you can get your hands on 60k worth of gold reagent, that's not a bad deal. But getting your hands on that much reagents worth of gold should be a big deal. A very big deal. the next highest reagent only gets you about 2k a month.

You only sell for 30% if you fence your goods pretty much immediately. Getting a higher price isn't particularly difficult, even under the rules much less in roleplay.

[Emperor Tippy]

The same sort of thing goes for "bodyguard duty" or "conning people" or whatever other imagined scheme you've managed to bully and brow beat out of your poor GM. There is a reason rules for getting free money isn't in the book. Its because the game isn't called Fixer or Wage Slave; it's called Shadowrun.

Except there are plenty of rules for getting essentially free money.

You are a Shadowrunner because no other life will have you.

No, you really aren't. Unless you have done enough bad shit to get the entire Corporate Court to want you dead then at any time you can walk into pretty much any megacorp and walk out in a new nation with a new DNA print, new finger prints, new retinas, a new SIN, and a new job pulling in a High or Luxury lifestyle. You have a valuable skill set that the corps wants and will pay for.

You might not find such an option acceptable and that is fine but you still aren't running because of a lack of options.

Money is one of the things a GM uses as incentive. If you convince him that you get free money for doing nothing(other than saying "I do a thing. Give me money.") then money shouldn't be a factor in your game at all. Shadowrunners should be sweating the rent. Especially at 400BP. Less so as they get better, but if money is never a motivator for Shadowrunners, why is it there?

No, Shadowrunners really shouldn't be sweating the rent. If they are then they choose to be doing so. The list of ways to make money really is simply too long. Even in fluff. Netcat does Resonance Realm searches for a 100K a pop (which is virtually all pure profit), as just one example. That's 10 months of High lifestyle.

I get that y'all play fast and loose with the rules, which is your right. Do whatever and play however you want. Paint yourself yellow and call yourself Banana Man for all I care. But don't say "This is how Shadowrun should be" when clearly it's not how it was written, intended or played by anyone but you.

You are the one playing fast and loose with the rules. And what I have said is how shadow run is written both in the rules and in a good chunk of the fluff.

Especially from a group that's not good enough to pull off a single run from Missions.

And you get this idea where?

Meh ? That's completely absurd - Ares might be a big and nasty corp, but there'd 9 others just about as big - there's simply not enough room, ressources and money on the planet to support anything like that sort of cash flow, the various AA and lesser corps and the governments all at the same time''today the USA's PIB is about 15% of the world's econmy, which would make the AAA alone 150% of it. Something's fishy here).

I grant you that on paper Ares and it's ilk might show that much value, but if today's economy is anything to judge by, most of that will be esoteric financial assets that translates as far less at ground level in hardware, peoples and places. Basicaly a lot of big numbers bouncing around the computerizd finance system with a relevance on the phyical world close to that aof a hamster running in it's wheel (i'm exagerating here of course, but that's the idea)

And yet that is what the books place their wealth and revenues at.

That said, I think the 'sweet spot' for pay--let's use the starting 400 BP characters--should be somewhere between 12 thousand and 25 thousand per run, going up from there as they get more experienced. This gives enough for all those little expenses--which can add up quick--lifestyle costs and enough to seriously save for gear upgrades (which is character advancement just as much as karma spending for skills. Karma awards, in my opinion, should be 5 karma per session--not per run (in case a run spans more than one session).

Our average profit per runner is around that level. Most of the mission price ends up eaten by consumables. If you are only spending 25K per run total (and not just as the characters profits) then you can't even afford a high end fake SIN for everyone in a team of 5.

[Mäx]

Hacking a lifestyle is allowed under the rules and what you discuss is what happens on a glitch or critical glitch; which buying hits prevents from occurring.

Meaning you should not be allowed to buy those hits as buying hits is only supposed to be used for stuff that doesn't have negative consequences for failing.

[Emperor Tippy]

Meaning you should not be allowed to buy those hits as buying hits is only supposed to be used for stuff that doesn't have negative consequences for failing.

Everything has negative consequences for glitching. There would have to be negative consequences to not meeting the test threshold for buying hits to be against the rules, and there aren't (you simply don't get the benefit).

[KarmaInferno]

Buying hits should generally be used to speed up gameplay, not merely to avoid things like glitches.

It's also only supposed to be available when the GM says it is, not when the player WANTS to use it.

Again, the reason you're getting these responses is because your game operates at a LOT higher level than most other folks, with a GM that seems to be overly generous and permissive, then you act as if this were the norm.

It's not.



-k

[Chance359]

Don't feed the troll.

To answer the original question, as with most things the quicker it needs to be done the more it costs. About 20% or more depending on how quick the Johnson wants the job done.

[Fortinbras]

And you get this idea where?

You said you can't do a run in under a week, which is how long a Missions run takes at minimum. Let's look at Season 2, because it's free. You couldn't do Parliament of Thieves, Best Served Cold, The Grab, Thrash the Body Electric or any of them, really because they all have time limits. You'd pass on those missions or insist on getting paid 40 times more, which isn't in the budget of those Johnsons. In the world of Shadowrun, your team just isn't good enough to do those runs.

It's understandable. Shadowrun is meant to be a hard game and if you just aren't at that experience level, I get it. Some people just need to take more time to learn things than others. Your team isn't capable of running any of published adventures. That's nothing to be ashamed of. Sometimes we all need a little help, and in this case your GM gives you free money and makes the runs super easy because y'all just aren't at the level that some of the rest of us are at, but he doesn't want to discourage you from playing the game. I think that's commendable.
Just understand that the rest of us play with, let's call it the difficulty set on a higher level. The GM doesn't give us millions of nuyen for free and plays using a stricter version of the rules. Some even play RAW. No one is saying that your way is wrong, it's just not the way the rest of the world plays the game.
Best of luck with your millions of nuyen, though.

[Thanee]

That is fully fluff supported shadowrun in the Sixth World. Now think about what you would have to do to be remotely safe and independent running in that world.

I like to say there is one simple rule in Shadowrun.

Rule #1 There are Shadowrunners.

Anything that breaks rule #1 has to be considered with extreme care and is likely not quite as strict as it might look at first glance. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So, if you find something, and think it through, and it basically ends in "Shadowrunners could never exist like that!", you break rule #1, so your assumptions must be wrong, because rule #1 definitely isn't.

Bye
Thanee

[Lord Ben]

Requires saying "I don't like you following the rules so I'm going to just arbitrarily throw shit at you.". Hacking a lifestyle is allowed under the rules and what you discuss is what happens on a glitch or critical glitch; which buying hits prevents from occurring.

So your GM is arbitrarily allowing enemies to track you/find you outside the rules? Nice. If the enemy can, under the rules, track or find you then the GM should let them and they should deal with you accordingly; but they have to be able to do that tracking under the rules.

You never get found? WTF? Corporate hit squads never have knowledge skills of knowing what's going on in the shadows and who is capable of what yet corporate Johnsons know who to contact when they have 4 million sitting around in their sock drawer? People are capable of putting 2+2 together even without leaving evidence behind.

If it's so easy to hack a lifestyle why not have the runners show up at home and all their stuff is missing because someone stole from them to hack their own, it's not breaking the rules to throw challenges at your players. They're not the only ones in the world who take initiative and try to tackle problems.

[thorya]

And how are you any better for attacking him and saying he's "having fun wrong" just because it isn't the exact same way you do? Glasses houses. Stones.

I wasn't trying to attack Tippy and I didn't say he was "having fun wrong". He's welcome to have games where a million nuyen or even a billion is thrown out by a Johnson. I was just trying to point out that he plays a very different game than most people on here and that usually isn't clear until about ten posts in, when the criticism has already started.

To use an analogy from the other game, Tippy plays (as I understand it) at Epic levels where everything is save or die and everyone is min-maxed to the extreme and the goal is not to clear a dungeon and get rich but kill the St. Cuthbert and take his place among the gods. And I think most people on here are playing closer to level 10, where they could just retire by crafting things for a profit for the rest of their lives, but part of the suspension of disbelief is ignoring and the other limits of the rules. I agree with him that if you step back and think about it, shadowrunners at a certain level aren't in it for the money (it's why my last game was 300 BP) and there are rules that let you essentially get infinite money given enough time. It's because Shadowrun is a game world and would not actually function the way most of the missions and setting says it does.

[Mäx]

You said you can't do a run in under a week, which is how long a Missions run takes at minimum. Let's look at Season 2, because it's free. You couldn't do Parliament of Thieves, Best Served Cold, The Grab, Thrash the Body Electric or any of them, really because they all have time limits. You'd pass on those missions or insist on getting paid 40 times more, which isn't in the budget of those Johnsons. In the world of Shadowrun, your team just isn't good enough to do those runs.

It's understandable. Shadowrun is meant to be a hard game and if you just aren't at that experience level, I get it. Some people just need to take more time to learn things than others. Your team isn't capable of running any of published adventures. That's nothing to be ashamed of. Sometimes we all need a little help, and in this case your GM gives you free money and makes the runs super easy because y'all just aren't at the level that some of the rest of us are at, but he doesn't want to discourage you from playing the game. I think that's commendable.
Just understand that the rest of us play with, let's call it the difficulty set on a higher level. The GM doesn't give us millions of nuyen for free and plays using a stricter version of the rules. Some even play RAW. No one is saying that your way is wrong, it's just not the way the rest of the world plays the game.
Best of luck with your millions of nuyen, though.

Could you be any more condesending.
His team could most likely do any of missions adventures in their sleep as those aren't that hard, but they wouldn't like to,as they can't for sure to know that the mission would be that easy and thus refer to have more planning time.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Could you be any more condesending.
His team could most likely do any of missions adventures in their sleep as those aren't that hard, but they wouldn't like to,as they can't for sure to know that the mission would be that easy and thus refer to have more planning time.

The point was that the team COULD NOT do those runs in their sleep. They would be so far out of their comfort zone that they would be paralytzed with indecision. And it is so very hard to argue that point, as they cannot even go to the stuffer shack without taking 97 different precautions, along with having their hacker hack everything between their doss and the shack and then along their evasion routes to get back to their doss. Sheer Lunacy amounts of paranoia at work there.

They would spend so much time dealing with their paranoia that the mission would go completely unfulfilled.

[Shemhazai]

Emperor Tippy: I admire your knowledge. I only disagree with a minority of what you've written in this thread. If you tried your hand at writing Shadowrun material, I would take a look at it.

Originally, I wrote that the Johnson should give you a final offer of four times the original amount. That was mostly because I thought that 100K was a little low for a seven person team with an excellent reputation. Now that you've gone into more detail about how this hotel was built like a nearly impregnable fortress, I think that the original offer was a lowball. If the Johnson was really testing you to see if you would take the job for a song, then I understand how getting a far higher price without negotiation could be possible.

If the Johnson wasn't trying to pull a fast one, maybe a better original offer would have been 400K. Then do negotiation as normal, with a premium for the 27-hour deadline. If his ass was really on the line, then maybe a reasonable final offer would have been a cool million. The premium would depend on the situation and what the Johnson was able and willing to pay.

Personally, I think 4M was way too much, but you did say the Johnson's life was on the line, and he had access to millions. However your GM wants to have things is fine with me.

A few more quick questions: what would have been the consequences of accidentally exploding the roof directly on top of the celeb, killing or badly disfiguring the star in the process? What percent of the suite collapsed? Would a reasonable critical glitch have been the death of the target?

[Mäx]

A few more quick questions: what would have been the consequences of accidentally exploding the roof directly on top of the celeb, killing or badly disfiguring the star in the process? What percent of the suite collapsed? Would a reasonable critical glitch have been the death of the target?

Not Tippy, but i would assume his team has a professional demolitions expert, so the hole on the proof most likely wasn't much bigger then what a man in full military gear needs to drop through with out hassle(if you have seen the first Underworld, think of the scene where Selene cuts a hole around her in the floor to get to the bottom floor, thats about the size i'm picturing for what they did whit the breaching charges)