Edge and Glitches Options

[Draco18s]

Every time the DV+net hits>remaining hitboxes+overflow, the next roll is pass or die.

Precisely.

[Thanee]

Of course, Shadowrunning is a dangerous business and Shadowrun is a deadly system. There should be plenty situations where the players have to fear for their characters. Otherwise, where would be the excitement. Where would be the foundation for heroic deeds, that the bards will sing ab... oh, wait, wrong system here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Glitches are a storytelling tool, and should be used as such.

Bye
Thanee

[Cain]

Remember, I have an unbroken string of critical failures, at least one per session for every time I've GM'd Shadowrun...for over 22 years.

Anyone want to calculate the odds on that?

The point being, even though it's rare, it happens, and can be dealt with using special case house rules. I allow rerolls on a botch, but only negations on criticals.

As for the question that sparked all this, there are four possible results that the dice can throw at you: Success, Failure, Success with too many 1's (botch), and failure with too many 1's (critical). Downgrading a critical makes it a normal failure.

[Thanee]

The point being, even though it's rare, it happens, and can be dealt with using special case house rules.

Why would you need house rules to deal with those critical failures?

Bye
Thanee

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Because you need more house rules to compensate for the house rule of not allowing rerolls on glitches?

[almost normal]

Because you need more house rules to compensate for the house rule of not allowing rerolls on glitches?

You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Thanee]

... the house rule of not allowing rerolls on glitches?

Is that really a house rule? It might be. I'm not entirely sure here. It's certainly not crystal clear.

But that is also kinda irrelevant.

Bye
Thanee

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Is that really a house rule? It might be. I'm not entirely sure here. It's certainly not crystal clear.

False. The availability of strictly worse options in no way implies that it's not legal to do. A sufficient counterargument has not been presented.

But that is also kinda irrelevant.

Can you use Edge to re-roll 8 dice, in order to increase the number of hits you get (but still suffer the Glitch)?

Or does a Glitch automatically negate all other Edge-options (apart from negating the Glitch, that is)?

[Aerospider]

As for the question that sparked all this, there are four possible results that the dice can throw at you: Success, Failure, Success with too many 1's (botch), and failure with too many 1's (critical). Downgrading a critical makes it a normal failure.

You missed one - failure with too many ones, but at least one hit.

Also, depends on whether you go with the Critical Glitch rules on p.62 (downgrade to normal glitch) or the Edge rules on p. 74 (ignore critical glitch).

[Thanee]

The availability of strictly worse options in no way implies that it's not legal to do. A sufficient counterargument has not been presented.

Yeah, as I said, disallowing rerolls on a Glitch could be considered a house rule.

If you go by a very strict reading, it certainly would be (since there is nothing disallowing the rerolling).

If you go by the so-called RAI, then it is unclear. Because, then, that "strictly worse option" part actually is a valid argument.

I am (or was) mostly interested in getting a better understanding of these two options to weigh them against each other, and have by now (which is kinda obvious, I guess) made up my opinion about it.

Bye
Thanee

[FriendoftheDork]

You should have spent Edge... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

He already did obviously, his computer was gonna crash, explode, and burn down his apartment. Luckily he spent Edge and got away with a double post (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) =

[FriendoftheDork]

False. The availability of strictly worse options in no way implies that it's not legal to do. A sufficient counterargument has not been presented.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/26910409.jpg

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Midas]

False. The availability of strictly worse options in no way implies that it's not legal to do. A sufficient counterargument has not been presented.

Yeah, as I said, disallowing rerolls on a Glitch could be considered a house rule.
If you go by a very strict reading, it certainly would be (since there is nothing disallowing the rerolling).
If you go by the so-called RAI, then it is unclear. Because, then, that "strictly worse option" part actually is a valid argument.

In the case of a glitched test, Edge can be used to (1) negate/downgrade the glitch, or (2) reroll failures, according to the RAW everyone is looking at. If you take the second option, the rules tell you what to do, but they do not tell you that the glitch on the original roll gets expunged. This is an assumption that may or may not be correct.

Disallowing rerolls on a glitch would be a house rule. Whether or not the glitch would be negated if a player elects to use Edge for a reroll is a grey area that is not specifically addressed either way, and is therefore open to interpretation.

[Midas]

You should have spent Edge... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Heh! Nah, saving my Edge for important stuff, like leaping over that Chasm'o'Doom on the way home!

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Whether or not the glitch would be negated if a player elects to use Edge for a reroll is a grey area that is not specifically addressed either way, and is therefore open to interpretation.

I consider the proposition that the glitch carries on too ridiculous to bear further discussion.

[StealthSigma]

I consider the proposition that the glitch carries on too ridiculous to bear further discussion.

I consider the proposition that you can critically glitch and succeed at the same time too ridiculous for further discussion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

I consider the proposition that you can critically glitch and succeed at the same time too ridiculous for further discussion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This cannot happen, with any of the previously mentioned interpretations. If you are allowed to reroll, you reroll. The numbers the dice showed before being rerolled are irrelevant. If you may only downgrade the critical glitch to a regular failure, you get neither a critical glitch nor a success.

[StealthSigma]

This cannot happen, with any of the previously mentioned interpretations. If you are allowed to reroll, you reroll. The numbers the dice showed before being rerolled are irrelevant. If you may only downgrade the critical glitch to a regular failure, you get neither a critical glitch nor a success.

One interpretation that has been mentioned previously is that you can reroll but the glitch status is not removed by the reroll. This interpretation allows for a critical glitch and a success or even more absurdly a critical glitch and critical success.

[Midas]

I consider the proposition that the glitch carries on too ridiculous to bear further discussion.

Why? The rules do not state that it doesn't ... except in that other option for using Edge.

Sticking your nose in the air and snorting in haughty derision is one way to address an issue under debate, but it tends to be a tactic to duck the issue rather than address it directly. Show me the RAW quote that says if you use Edge to reroll non-hits that any glitch that occurred on the original dice roll dissappears. If you can't, then I guess my interpretation of the RAW is as valid as yours.

[Dakka Dakka]

Sticking your nose in the air and snorting in haughty derision is one way to address an issue under debate, but it tends to be a tactic to duck the issue rather than address it directly. Show me the RAW quote that says if you use Edge to reroll non-hits that any glitch that occurred on the original dice roll dissappears. If you can't, then I guess my interpretation of the RAW is as valid as yours.

What is a reroll? You pick up (some) dice and roll them again. There is no mention of keeping the old results, except for rerolls with the rule of six.

[Aerospider]

One interpretation that has been mentioned previously is that you can reroll but the glitch status is not removed by the reroll. This interpretation allows for a critical glitch and a success or even more absurdly a critical glitch and critical success.

I don't know that it is a necessarily absurd notion. A critical glitch is not the antithesis of a success or a critical success, they are just mutually exclusive under normal circumstances. That doesn't mean it's non-sensical for them to coexist.

So you're once again jumping that f***ing chasm. Success means you make it across. Critical success means you look awesome doing it, or you get a free attack on an opponent on the other side or something. But critical glitch doesn't mean you jumped in the opposite direction. Maybe with a success and a critical glitch combined you land safely on the other side but your ankle is seriously broken by the impact, or you lose your footing as you land and start sliding down the jagged, not-quite-vertical side of the chasm.

I have no doubt that this is not RAI, but it can be made to work.

[Cain]

I don't know that it is a necessarily absurd notion. A critical glitch is not the antithesis of a success or a critical success, they are just mutually exclusive under normal circumstances. That doesn't mean it's non-sensical for them to coexist.

So you're once again jumping that f***ing chasm. Success means you make it across. Critical success means you look awesome doing it, or you get a free attack on an opponent on the other side or something. But critical glitch doesn't mean you jumped in the opposite direction. Maybe with a success and a critical glitch combined you land safely on the other side but your ankle is seriously broken by the impact, or you lose your footing as you land and start sliding down the jagged, not-quite-vertical side of the chasm.

That's just a normal botch.

[Midas]

What is a reroll? You pick up (some) dice and roll them again. There is no mention of keeping the old results, except for rerolls with the rule of six.

Hits from the original dice roll remain, so there is no reason why glitches do not as well. And while as you say there is no mention of old results being kept, there is also no mention of old results being expunged either, the RAW only tells us that "non-hit" dice are rerolled. Glitches are not non-hit dice, and ergo it can be argued are unaffected by the scope of that particular use of Edge.

The rules on using Edge to reroll non-hits are silent on what happens if a glitch occurred on the original roll. You can argue that in picking up the "non-hit" dice for an Edge reroll, any glitch is also de facto removed ("Look ma! No 1's!"), but this assumption is neither confirmed or denied in the RAW, and it can be argued given the other use of Edge to remove a glitch, implicitly denied by the RAI.

[mister__joshua]

Hits from the original dice roll remain

Well, the hits from the original dice-roll remain because you're not re-rolling them. I think saying that 1's are not non-hits is a bit of a stretch because, well, they're not hits.

Saying that though, I'm very much a believer that everyone should play how they think works best. Since the starting of this thread, I'm starting to think that maybe not allowing re-rolls on critical glitches might be fun. I've just never read the rules that way. The reason I play re-roll all misses and take the new result is because that's how I read it, that's how I taught it to the players and I've never had any reason to think it was wrong.

[Dakka Dakka]

Hits from the original dice roll remain, so there is no reason why glitches do not as well. And while as you say there is no mention of old results being kept, there is also no mention of old results being expunged either, the RAW only tells us that "non-hit" dice are rerolled. Glitches are not non-hit dice, and ergo it can be argued are unaffected by the scope of that particular use of Edge.

There are no glitched dice or glitch results on a die. There are only the results of 1-6 on a die. Whether a roll is a glitch or not is detemined by the number of 1s in relation to the dice pool. If you reroll a die and it does not again show a 1 there is no more 1 to figure into the calculation. Hits obviously still count, because you do not reroll them if you did (as is the case with the skillwire expert system) they do no longer count either.