Edge and Glitches Options

[StealthSigma]

No, the critical glitch is dependent on rolling not a single hit. One hit, the rest of the dice pool showing 1s would never be a critical glitch, but if the threshold is 2 or more the test would still be failed and you yould suffer the consequences of a regular glitch.

How is that different from what he said. A critical glitch, by definition, requires no hits. A test with no hits will be a failed test. Thus a critical glitch will always be a failed test.

Likewise, a critical success typically requires 4 successes beyond what is required for the test so a critical success can only occur on a successful test.

--

You're fine having a different opinion. Bull, who as far as I know is the closest thing we have to a rules arbiter as he runs the missions, has said in the past that edge is *not* a DPM.

Not really. Missions requires a uniform interpretation of the rules. Anything that is vague needs to have an interpretation in order to be properly taken care of by GMs for Missions. This has no bearing on whether the interpretation is right or wrong, it's just a matter of necessity that a uniform interpretation be used which necessitates a single arbiter.

[Dakka Dakka]

How is that different from what he said. A critical glitch, by definition, requires no hits. A test with no hits will be a failed test. Thus a critical glitch will always be a failed test.

That is true but a test with hits can still be a failed test, if the threshold is higher than the number of hits. If there is a single hit the test can never be a critical glitch, no matter whether the test is failed or not. So failure is necessary but not sufficient. What makes the glitch critical is the absence of hits.

Likewise, a critical success typically requires 4 successes beyond what is required for the test so a critical success can only occur on a successful test.

This is also true, but a critical success can still be a glitch.

[Draco18s]

That is true but a test with hits can still be a failed test, if the threshold is higher than the number of hits.

And that's why a glitch shouldn't rule out the reroll-failed-dice option. There should always be the possibility of generating additional hits.

[Thanee]

There should always be the possibility of generating additional hits.

If that would be true, there would be no point in rolling in the first place, since you auto-succeed at every task.

Besides, earlier in this thread someone asked you the question already... why?

Why should it always be possible?

Bye
Thanee

[almost normal]

And that's why a glitch shouldn't rule out the reroll-failed-dice option. There should always be the possibility of generating additional hits.

Except that under the rules for a critical glitch, it specifically states that using edge will still have the result of failure. This further reinforces the fact that the only legitimate use for edge in a glitch situation is to downgrade the glitch type. If you could just pick up dice and reroll a crit glitch, then a success result would be possible.

[Dakka Dakka]

No, that is not what the rules say, they say that you are allowed to use Edge to downgrade a critical glitch to a regular glitch, and that you still fail if you do so. This only means that this use of Edge does not generate any hits. It does not mean that this is the only option to use Edge, nor that it is impossible to still succeed on the test.
For your convenience:

Note that characters may spend Edge to downgrade a critical glitch to a regular non-catastrophic glitch (p. 74; note that the character still fails).

[Draco18s]

If that would be true, there would be no point in rolling in the first place, since you auto-succeed at every task.

Not every task. Edge is a limited resource. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Aerospider]

No, that is not what the rules say, they say that you are allowed to use Edge to downgrade a critical glitch to a regular glitch, and that you still fail if you do so. This only means that this use of Edge does not generate any hits. It does not mean that this is the only option to use Edge, nor that it is impossible to still succeed on the test.
For your convenience:

Quite so. It is this passage that implies glitches are not a definition of a subset of roll results but a separate event caused by them. You can have a standard glitch without any hits, so it is not unthinkable that you could allow a critical glitch with a successful roll (having used Edge to re-roll).

[almost normal]

No, that is not what the rules say.

Yes, it is. You're not even arguing RAI here, you're arguing unwritten rules as possibly intended. URAPI.

URAPI. I should probably come up with a better sounding acronym. Making Unwarranted Claims Known. MUCK! There we go. You're MUCKing things up.

Anyway, back to the facts.

Using edge is not a Dice Pool Modifier. Bull, the highest authority to have spoken on the matter has confirmed this. Edge never refers to itself as a modifier. Modifiers are situational, the use of edge is activational. Therefore edge cannot have an effect on the status of a glitch unless otherwise noted. There is only one stated exception, and that is using edge to downgrade the status of a glitch.

Unless new information can be brought to the table, (A higher authority, or a rules quote that specifically mentions edge as a dice pool modifier or rerolling as an acceptable way to negate a glitch) there really is no further point in me posting, I've clarified RAW and RAI as much as can be done. Hope this helped.

[Draco18s]

Using edge is not a Dice Pool Modifier. Bull, the highest authority to have spoken on the matter has confirmed this. Edge never refers to itself as a modifier. Modifiers are situational, the use of edge is activational. Therefore edge cannot have an effect on the status of a glitch unless otherwise noted. There is only one stated exception, and that is using edge to downgrade the status of a glitch.

You're arguing unwritten rules as possibly intended.

[almost normal]

You're arguing unwritten rules as possibly intended.

Are you trolling, or did you not read the last page of this thread?

[Draco18s]

Are you trolling, or did you not read the last page of this thread?

I did, and I still disagree with your position.

[almost normal]

Thats fine. You can disagree all you want and play your home games with whatever house rules you'd like. Free Country and all that buddy.

Just don't expect to pull that at a Missions game at a convention. Hopefully you understand that now and won't get burned/upset should you suffer a crit glitch. If you still don't understand, it's no skin off my back.

[Draco18s]

Just don't expect to pull that at a Missions game at a convention.

Oh, if I show up to a missions game, I'll be playing a demolitions expert.

With a 30 point hatred of furniture.

("What do you mean, I can't lob my grenade at a location? I'm trying to hit that dining set!")

[Cain]

No, the critical glitch is dependent on rolling not a single hit. One hit, the rest of the dice pool showing 1s would never be a critical glitch, but if the threshold is 2 or more the test would still be failed and you yould suffer the consequences of a regular glitch.

By definition, a roll without any successes is a failure.

I was never making any argument about RAW or RAI. You put forward the notion that a critical glitch occurring in conjunction with a success or a critical success was absurd, thereby implying that it should not be allowed. My suggestion was contending that they are not mutually exclusive events due to absurdity. They might be mutually exclusive if that's how you interpret the rules (and it's clear they are open to interpretation) but if so then to claim absurdity would be redundant.

Actually, I'm pointing out that if you allow for a critical success along with a critical failure, the net result is a normal botch. There's no need to make up a special rule for that, making your point redundant.

No, that is not what the rules say, they say that you are allowed to use Edge to downgrade a critical glitch to a regular glitch, and that you still fail if you do so. This only means that this use of Edge does not generate any hits. It does not mean that this is the only option to use Edge, nor that it is impossible to still succeed on the test.

That's why I allow rerolls on a normal botch, but not on criticals. Really, making criticals and non-criticals follow different rules isn't such a difficult thing, and neatly handles all the edge cases being thrown about.

[Aerospider]

Actually, I'm pointing out that if you allow for a critical success along with a critical failure, the net result is a normal botch. There's no need to make up a special rule for that, making your point redundant.

That's not what you implied however many posts back. You said a critical success and a critical failure co-occurring is absurd. I said it isn't, which is only redundant if you recant your previous claim.

If you want to further discuss your previous claim I'm more than happy to do so, but I have no qualms with this new claim.

[Dakka Dakka]

Quite so. It is this passage that implies glitches are not a definition of a subset of roll results but a separate event caused by them.

I don't see that implication.

You can have a standard glitch without any hits,

Only if you used edge to downgrade a critical glitch to a regular glitch.

so it is not unthinkable that you could allow a critical glitch with a successful roll (having used Edge to re-roll).

Not unthinkable but against the rules. The roll that is judged as a critical glitch can never have any hits, by definition. Additionally there is no rule to keep 1s that are rerolled, nor do the rules permit to calculate the result of the test before the test is concluded.

Using edge is not a Dice Pool Modifier.

I already proved from the rules in the BBB that using edge as additional dice is a dice pool modifier.

Bull, the highest authority to have spoken on the matter has confirmed this.

I'd really like to read what Bull actually wrote about this. Can you quote him?

Modifiers are situational, the use of edge is activational. Therefore edge cannot have an effect on the status of a glitch unless otherwise noted.

The use of Edge changes the situation even though this change is activated by the player. How is that not situational?

Unless new information can be brought to the table, (A higher authority, or a rules quote that specifically mentions edge as a dice pool modifier or rerolling as an acceptable way to negate a glitch) there really is no further point in me posting, I've clarified RAW and RAI as much as can be done. Hope this helped.

You do know that appealing to a higher authority is not proof, don't you?

By definition, a roll without any successes is a failure.

True, but what has been posited was that for a critical glitch to occur failure and more than half the dice pool of 1s would be sufficient. That is wrong. You need half a dice pool of 1s and not a single hit. An example: dice pool 2, threshold 2 test, the dice come up with 1 and 5. This is a failure and a glitch but not a critical glitch. For a critical glitch you would need for example 1, 4.

That's why I allow rerolls on a normal botch, but not on criticals. Really, making criticals and non-criticals follow different rules isn't such a difficult thing, and neatly handles all the edge cases being thrown about.

It might work, but you are denying your players legitimate options.

[Thanee]

Not every task. Edge is a limited resource. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Well, but that is not always then...

Ok, back to the serious part of my post... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I would still really like to know your reasons, why you think that it should "always" be allowed to generate more hits.

Bye
Thanee

[Draco18s]

I would still really like to know your reasons, why you think that it should "always" be allowed to generate more hits.

Easy.

I am given a list of uses for edge. One of them is "roll more dice."

It doesn't say I can't use it (or any of the other edge uses) when I have a glitch or critical glitch. Therefore I may use that option at any time, provided I have not already used edge on this roll and still have edge left to spend.

[FuelDrop]

Oh, if I show up to a missions game, I'll be playing a demolitions expert.

With a 30 point hatred of furniture.

("What do you mean, I can't lob my grenade at a location? I'm trying to hit that dining set!")

I like that.

I know who I'm going to call when the furniture uprising begins!

[Dakka Dakka]

Bah, furniture is harmless. It's the floors that are out to get us. Even worse, the natural ones are in league with the manufactured ones.

[Cain]

That's not what you implied however many posts back. You said a critical success and a critical failure co-occurring is absurd. I said it isn't, which is only redundant if you recant your previous claim.

If you want to further discuss your previous claim I'm more than happy to do so, but I have no qualms with this new claim.

I don't recall ever using the word "absurd".

It might work, but you are denying your players legitimate options.

I don't see it as a legitimate option. I see negating a critical as the only legitimate rule.

[Aerospider]

I don't recall ever using the word "absurd".

D'oh! No, it was StealthSigma. Sorry about that.

[Thanee]

Easy.

I am given a list of uses for edge. One of them is "roll more dice."

It doesn't say I can't use it (or any of the other edge uses) when I have a glitch or critical glitch. Therefore I may use that option at any time, provided I have not already used edge on this roll and still have edge left to spend.

That's an explanation why the RAW rules can/should be read that way.

But that's not what I meant.


I was under the impression that you think it should be that way (regardless of how the rules actually state it), because ... <enter reason here>

Or in other words, if the rules clearly spelled out, that you cannot use any other Edge options other than negating a Glitch, why would that be a bad thing in your opinion?

Bye
Thanee

[Draco18s]

Or in other words, if the rules clearly spelled out, that you cannot use any other Edge options other than negating a Glitch, why would that be a bad thing in your opinion?

Ahhh.

Now you want an opinion on a house rule.

If the rules spelled it out that way, no, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I might still object to what a "downgraded critical glitch" actually is, and how it would differ from a "glitch failure" (if at all).

But no, it is not a bad rule.

But it is a house rule not supported by RAW.