Edge and Glitches Options

[Dakka Dakka]

I have no objection to use Edge to get vitally needed hits on a crit glitched test, and have no objection that you could get a crit glitch with hits. It's no stranger than a glitch with no hits.

It is not an issue whether doing that is strange or not. The issue is that it is not allowed by the rules. A critical glitch cannnot have hits much less be a successful roll.

All uses of Edge are exceptions to the normal rules. Longshot gives you a chance where the rules say you have none. Going first in initiative lets the REA 3 INT 3 guy impossibly act before the REA 9 INT 5 bad guy. Downgrading a crit glitch we have already covered.

Yes, but these are explicit exceptions. You create exceptions that are not in the rules.

Reroll: I do not see a crit glitch with hits as "illegal".

A critical glitch is defined as at least half the dice pool of 1s and not a single hit. If the rerolls generate hits this is obviously not a critical glitch. It can't be a regular glitch either, if you determined the critical glitch beforehand, since a roll cannot be a regular glitch and a critical glitch at the same time.

Edge Dice: "May modify the outcome of a test" does not mean DPM. The reroll is a separate roll alltogether.

The reroll most likely should not be a dice pool modifier, but the rules are unclear on that. Classifying the reroll as Dice pool modifier would not cause any troubles though, as far as I can tell. Using edge to add extra dice (either initially or after the normal roll) however, is neither an attribute modifier, a skill modifier nor a threshold modifier, so it must be a dice pool modifier. (See p. 61 A note on modifiers)

An adjacent question, what happens if for example someone rolls one hit and not a single 1 on a dice pool of 10? Since you determine the glitch after the initial roll this is not a glitch. What happens if the player opts to reroll the non-hits and gets 5 or more 1s? According to you it has already been determined that the test is not a glitch so the ones are meaningless? Redetermining the status is not in the rules.

If a glitch reroll is a separate roll, the ones are still there, and nixing the original roll is never mentioned in the rules either. The rules say that hits from the edge reroll are added to hits from the original test, which also completely fits my interpretation of events.

If a reroll is a separate test, the 1s cannot count. Saying they do is like saying the result of defense test will modify the subsequent attack test. For this to happen you need explicit permission to do so (like with the counter strike adept power). Keeping the 1s is not mentioned, keeping the hits however is.

Conclude the test before determining the result, and then, if necessary, use Edge to subvert the results before determination of outcome.

The thing is a test need not be concluded after a single roll (Extended test are another example where this is the case).

[Midas]

As for the rest of it:
We've made our arguments and they are sound.

What we're doing in even discussing RAW versus RAI has clear analogues to constitutional textualism versus originalism. I stand by my assertions.

@Draco
Along with Dakka, you have been active on these forums long enough to know what a RAW discussion is. In regard to using Edge for rerolls, you have made your arguments, and with the exception of almost normal, I do not see anyone claiming that your interpretationis not RAW-valid (although RAI is another matter).
For you to show my side's interpretation is wrong, you have to quote the RAW that unambiguously debunks our position. This you have not done, and until you do our interpretation is also RAW-valid and our arguments sound.

@Tsuyoshi
You can look at underlying principles, similar rules and the text in other rules to add RAI justifications to your position if you can find them. This is what I did in exploring what happens to the original 6 in the only other dice reroll mechanic in the game. But in an argument about the pure RAW, these justifications mean squat as they do not explicitly contradict the opposing view - it is easy to counter with "this rule and that rule are different", which is exactly how Dakka contradicted my comparison of Edge rerolls with the exploding 6's reroll mechanic.
Our interpretation is valid by RAW and supported by RAI evidence (what happens to the original 6 when it explodes in the game's only other reroll mechanic, the other rule for using Edge to negate a glitch, and the grammatical construction of both Edge reroll and glitch negating rules imply that hits and glitches have to been determined before Edge is used).
You are entitled to stand by your assertions, and express your opinion that our interpretation is wrong and or yours is right, but unless you can conclusively disprove our interpretations with the black and white of RAW, then our position is necessarily valid by RAW, whether you think you are right and we are wrong or not.

[Cain]

Look, this is beyond silly.

The question is: if you roll a fumble or critical fumble, are you allowed to reroll the failed dice to try and negate it? RAW is somewhat ambiguous on this one, but RAI is clear: the answer is no, otherwise there would be no need for the rule to spend Edge to directly negate it. All this nonsense about a critical fumble with successes (that's just an ordinary fumble) is unnecessarily confusing and complex.

[FuelDrop]

Look, this is beyond silly.

The question is: if you roll a fumble or critical fumble, are you allowed to reroll the failed dice to try and negate it? RAW is somewhat ambiguous on this one, but RAI is clear: the answer is no, otherwise there would be no need for the rule to spend Edge to directly negate it. All this nonsense about a critical fumble with successes (that's just an ordinary fumble) is unnecessarily confusing and complex.

Silly?!? are you suggesting that a board as intelligent and sophisticated as Dumpshock would waste 12 pages worth of posts with... silly arguments?
I, sir, am deeply shocked that you would even consider such a thing! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[tsuyoshikentsu]

RAW is somewhat ambiguous on this one, but RAI is clear: the answer is no, otherwise there would be no need for the rule to spend Edge to directly negate it.

We on the other side have provided several counterexamples and alternatives to show why this is false; the simplest is that a player might want a sure thing against an uncertainty. (Since you can't Edge twice, if you reroll or add more dice and get a glitch again, tough.)

[Midas]

It is not an issue whether doing that is strange or not. The issue is that it is not allowed by the rules. A critical glitch cannnot have hits much less be a successful roll.
Yes, but these are explicit exceptions. You create exceptions that are not in the rules.
A critical glitch is defined as at least half the dice pool of 1s and not a single hit. If the rerolls generate hits this is obviously not a critical glitch. It can't be a regular glitch either, if you determined the critical glitch beforehand, since a roll cannot be a regular glitch and a critical glitch at the same time.

Use of Edge is an exceptional circumstance in which the normal rules are superceded, so if Edge is used to reroll on a crit glitch, the rules are not clear on which trumps which. Either use of Edge to reroll allows a crit glitch with hits (Edge rules trump glitch rules), or the rule that crit glitches cannot have hits precludes the use of Edge for rerolling in the case of crit glitches (crit glitch rules trump Edge rules). The RAW is not clear on which rule takes precedence in this case, so this neither confirms or denies the validity of our position.

The RAW also doesn't explicitly limit Edge-trumps-normal-rules exceptions to those noted in the Edge rules, and your assumption that this is the case is a RAI argument. Please note that if you use this RAI assumption, use of Edge to reroll a crit glitch arguably becomes invalidated because a crit glitch by definition has no hits, so you cannot use Edge to create hits and thereby create an "illegal crit glitch" because the Edge reroll rules do not make an explicit exception for this circumstance ... which takes us nicely to Cain and almost normal's position.

The reroll most likely should not be a dice pool modifier, but the rules are unclear on that. Classifying the reroll as Dice pool modifier would not cause any troubles though, as far as I can tell. Using edge to add extra dice (either initially or after the normal roll) however, is neither an attribute modifier, a skill modifier nor a threshold modifier, so it must be a dice pool modifier. (See p. 61 A note on modifiers)

If the reroll is considered a separate roll, the rerolled dice are not DPM or anything to do with the initial roll. I don't see how this is hard to understand.

An adjacent question, what happens if for example someone rolls one hit and not a single 1 on a dice pool of 10? Since you determine the glitch after the initial roll this is not a glitch. What happens if the player opts to reroll the non-hits and gets 5 or more 1s? According to you it has already been determined that the test is not a glitch so the ones are meaningless? Redetermining the status is not in the rules.
If a reroll is a separate test, the 1s cannot count. Saying they do is like saying the result of defense test will modify the subsequent attack test. For this to happen you need explicit permission to do so (like with the counter strike adept power).

Right, if the reroll is a special auxilliary roll made purely for the purpose of boosting hits generated in the original roll, any 1's in the reroll are irrelevant to the glitch status of the original roll. As the rules say, "hits" are added to hits from the original roll, not "dice results". And before you ask, because the Edge reroll mechanic is a unique auxilliary roll that is not a separate "test" in itself, the reroll is not subject to glitching.

Keeping the 1s is not mentioned, keeping the hits however is.
The thing is a test need not be concluded after a single roll (Extended test are another example where this is the case).

Right, and as I keep replying nor is nixing them.
Extended tests are a different animal to normal tests, which is a good job for your position as glitches are determined after each dice roll in the extended test.

[Garvel]

RAW is somewhat ambiguous on this one, but RAI is clear: the answer is no, otherwise there would be no need for the rule to spend Edge to directly negate it.

RAI is definitely not clear on this subject, otherwise there wouldn't be three different common interpretations.

If RAI is really clear, no one cares what RAW says. (Take the Spirit Materialization Power as an example. RAW contradicts RAI, but everyone goes with RAI.)

[Midas]

We on the other side have provided several counterexamples and alternatives to show why this is false; the simplest is that a player might want a sure thing against an uncertainty. (Since you can't Edge twice, if you reroll or add more dice and get a glitch again, tough.)

Actually, it is a RAI argument against your side's interpretation because even in the case of a crit glitch with a DP of 1 (low DP have much higher chances of generating a glitch on the reroll*), then the probability that rerolling gives a result better than using Edge to downgrade the glitch is huge, and only gets bigger as the DP goes up.
(Use Edge to downgrade the glitch = no hits, automatic test failure, and a glitch; Use to reroll: Crit glitch (16.7% probability), no hits no glitch (50%), 1 hit no glitch (33.3%) = 83.3% chance of better result using rerolls)

As pointed out by your good self way upthread, the fact the glitch negating use of Edge is vastly inferior to the reroll use is not in and of itself an invalidation of your interpretation of the RAW, but it does provide RAI credence to Cain's and my positions.

*If you consider the reroll dice have anything to do with the determination of glitches, which I don't.

[Garvel]

Actually, it is a RAI argument against your side's interpretation because even in the case of a crit glitch with a DP of 1 (low DP have much higher chances of generating a glitch on the reroll*), then the probability that rerolling gives a result better than using Edge to downgrade the glitch is huge, and only gets bigger as the DP goes up.
(Use Edge to downgrade the glitch = no hits, automatic test failure, and a glitch; Use to reroll: Crit glitch (16.7% probability), no hits no glitch (50%), 1 hit no glitch (33.3%) = 83.3% chance of better result using rerolls)

As pointed out by your good self way upthread, the fact the glitch negating use of Edge is vastly inferior to the reroll use is not in and of itself an invalidation of your interpretation of the RAW, but it does provide RAI credence to Cain's and my positions.

*If you consider the reroll dice have anything to do with the determination of glitches, which I don't.

There are enough situations where a critical glitch would kill you and all other results would just be a nuisance. In that case you wont risk this 16.7% chance to die.

[mister__joshua]

As a side question, before this thread, did people even know others interpreted the rules so differently? I never once considered anyone played it any other way

[Thanee]

As a side question, before this thread, did people even know others interpreted the rules so differently? I never once considered anyone played it any other way

Well, I did consider the two options, that you can or cannot use other Edge options after initially rolling a Glitch. That's why I started this thread. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I did not initially consider that you could negate the Glitch by re-rolling, though I can see where the people who go with that interpretation are coming from.

The discussion was definitely helpful to get a better understanding of the various options, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Aerospider]

A critical glitch is defined as at least half the dice pool of 1s and not a single hit. If the rerolls generate hits this is obviously not a critical glitch.

This is not the case. Strictly speaking RAW has it that a critical glitch is caused by such a roll, not that they are one and the same thing.

I.e.

A: (Half or more are 1s) n (None are 5s) n (None are 6s) => Critical glitch occurs

B: (Half or more are 1s) n (None are 5s) n (None are 6s) <= Critical glitch occurs

C: (Half or more are 1s) n (None are 5s) n (None are 6s) <=> Critical glitch occurs

A is RAW. B is not which means C is not.

Therefore Midas is correct in his assertion that a critical glitch with successes is not illegal. The most that can be argued (without relying on supposition) is that it is counter-intuitive, but this is subject to opinion and mine (for what it's worth, not having picked a side yet) is that it isn't counter-intuitive.

[Aerospider]

As a side question, before this thread, did people even know others interpreted the rules so differently? I never once considered anyone played it any other way

Had no idea and hadn't even thought to question my interpretation.

Also hadn't spotted that the glitch rules talk about downgrading critical glitches to normal glitches whilst the Edge rules talk about negating critical glitches. I think I've seen both sides quoted in this thread with nobody addressing the implications of playing one way as opposed to the other.

[Thanee]

Well, I'm reasonably sure, that critical glitches are downgraded, not negated. I would consider the different wording an oversight.

Bye
Thanee

[almost normal]

Right. It goes from a critical glitch to a failed test with a glitch.

[Dakka Dakka]

Right. It goes from a critical glitch to a failed test with a glitch.

Which is only ever worth doing if the failure in itself is not devastating. Since there are only very vague guidelines as to what the difference in repercussions between a failure glitch and a critical glitch is, unless the player waits until after the GM has described the potential effects, it is never worthwhile doing. Even then it is a gamble that the glitch is substantially (as in justifying the expenditure of a finite resource) less painful than the critical glitch.

Even if the critical glitch was totally negated you would only do that if the failure in itself was not the problem.

Aerospider: I assume the n stands for the logical operator AND. Where does it actually say that B is not. This interpretation hinges on the, IMHO erroneous, opinion that rolls can be glitched. Tests can be glitched, not rolls. A test is the whole process from the decision to do something to the description of the results.

[Draco18s]

I assume the n stands for the logical operator AND.

He's trying to use the Intersection operator.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersection_%28set_theory%29

So yes.

[almost normal]

Which is only ever worth doing if the failure in itself is not devastating. Since there are only very vague guidelines as to what the difference in repercussions between a failure glitch and a critical glitch is,

Just make shit up.

Critical glitch on a dodge, you slip, your helmet falls off, and you expose the top of your head to the gunfire.

Fail glitch on a dodge, the shooters hits become net hits and your armor gets damaged.

[Aerospider]

Where does it actually say that B is not. This interpretation hinges on the, IMHO erroneous, opinion that rolls can be glitched. Tests can be glitched, not rolls. A test is the whole process from the decision to do something to the description of the results.

It doesn't say not-B, but the point is that it does not say B. It does say A, but A cannot by itself prove B.

You make an interesting conjecture. Shall have to check the book again.

[almost normal]

Well, that's bullshit anyway. Neither tests nor rolls are 'glitched', it's the Dice Pool result that causes a glitch.

[Draco18s]

Well, that's bullshit anyway. Neither tests nor rolls are 'glitched', it's the Dice Pool result that causes a glitch.

If that's the case, it's easy to modify the glitched result. By changing the result. For instance, rerolling.

[almost normal]

Yes. If you re-roll, you would change the roll.

However, to reroll legally, you would need to use edge, which is not a DPM, which therefore cannot change the status of a glitch.

I'm glad we finally agree.

[Draco18s]

Yes. If you re-roll, you would change the roll.

So spending edge to reroll DOES negate glitches. I'm glad we finally agree.

However, to reroll legally, you would need to use edge, which is not a DPM, which therefore cannot change the status of a glitch.

Nice way to conflate two different uses of edge.

[almost normal]

So spending edge to reroll DOES negate glitches. I'm glad we finally agree.

It always has. It just wasn't legal. I'm in ecstasy that we agree on this.

[Garvel]

Just make shit up.

Critical glitch on a dodge, you slip, your helmet falls off, and you expose the top of your head to the gunfire.

Fail glitch on a dodge, the shooters hits become net hits and your armor gets damaged.

I think it's not that hard to come up with situations where downgrading a glitch is better than risking a reroll.

Some GMs will kill an PC if he has a critical glitch in a situation that was dangerous anyway. After all, it's the worst possible outcome of a test that can happen. Many nice GMs will still not do it, but remember that this edge-use-option was written for all player groups and play styles, not only for the ones with nice GMs.

In reality, even a single lucky bullet fired by an untrained (and edgeless) shooter can kill instantly, if it hits the head. In shadowrun the only rule mechanism that can reflect that risk, is a critical glitch on the damage resistance test (or maybe the dodge test). As a GM I use to rule that a critical glitch on a damage resistance test is an instant kill if you dont wear a helmet, but only for NPCs. But some GMs may prefer a grittier game style and rule it this way for PCs too.

If this use of edge isn't usefull in your playstyle, that doesn't mean that it is generally useless.

And remember that NPCs can use edge too. If the barkeeper connection of a PC is hit by a bullet in a shootout, and rolls a critical glitch with his very low damage resistance dicepool, I would rather use the negate-glitch option, so the PC gets a chance to stabilize him before he dies.

But enough of my own rulings. Here are some RAW examples where downgrading a critical glitch instead of risking rerolling is a serious option. Especially if you have a low dicepool.

Climbing:

A character who rolls a critical glitch is in trouble. That character falls with no chance to catch himself and can only be saved by another character, safety equipment, or the good graces of the gamemaster

etiquette and glitches:

If a character rolls a glitch on an Etiquette Test, she’s committed some faux pas that makes her look like a fool—the NPC may be less suspi-cious, but only because she thinks the character’s an idiot and there-fore harmless. If the character gets a critical glitch, the character gives something away that shows she does not fit in, and the level of hostil-ity/suspicion is actually increased by one step (Neutral to Suspicious, Suspicious to Prejudiced, and so on).

Quick Draw:

If he glitches, the gun is stuck in the holster or dropped. On a critical glitch, it is flung across the room or misfired while still in the holster.

Destroying Barriers:

The only way a character could “miss” is if he got a critical glitch on the attack test.

vehicle test glitches:

A glitch on a vehicle test causes something to go wrong with the ve-hicle. This can be anything from accidentally turning on the wipers to getting a flat, at the gamemaster’s discretion. At its most severe, a glitch might cause a temporary loss of control; apply a –2 modifier to tests made by any characters within the vehicle. The driver must succeed in a Vehicle Test within one turn or the vehicle crashes.
If the driver gets a critical glitch on the vehicle test, then the ve-hicle crashes.

Addiction tests:

A glitch result indicates addiction is resisted, but the character suffers a bad experience with the drug (a bad trip, nasty side effects, or something similar). A critical glitch means addiction occurs and the character develops an increased tolerance to the substance.

If you have the "Gremlins" negative quality, glitches may be guaranteed if you reroll (since you need less 1s), so negating the glitch with edge may be your only option.

If a critter uses the "Accident" critter power against you to inflict a glitch or critical glitch, rerolling can often be unlikely to succeed, but using edge to negate or downgrade the glitch will always do the trick.

The same is probably true for the "Gremlins" Power of sprites. (But I don't know much about sprites.)


As you see, many uses for the negate-glitch-with-edge option. No need to forbid the rerolling option to justify its existence.