Trolls and the duel wield rule Options

[Raiden]

So someone was asking wether or not a troll was allowed to dual wield two assualt rifles /drums at the same time. and lay down supprisive fire/semi focused fire with them. or if this would work with LMGs. he has a str of 9. Is it possible? if so, how does the recoil get modified? would it be the same as dual wielding two pistols recoil wise? (I would hope not)

[Modular Man]

"Arsenal" features some expanded combat rules (and a lot of people play with them, I think they're good).
One of them is that a person who tries to fire a normally two-handed weapon with one hand gets a -2 modifier to that check. Trolls get only -1 (due to bigger hands and arms, probably). Another rule is that characters with exceptionally high Strength attributes get additional recoil compensation.
So, technically, a troll might be able to pull this off and still have dice left for those shooting tests. These rules are on pp. 161-163, "Arsenal".
Also take into account that suppressive fire requires a complex action, whereas most focused shots only need simple actions (all but full auto bursts). I've got no idea how that works together.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Also take into account that suppressive fire requires a complex action, whereas most focused shots only need simple actions (all but full auto bursts). I've got no idea how that works together.

They don't...
You either take your Complex Action (which uses up any others) or you take a Simple+ (whcih precludes any Complex Actions). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Daier Mune]

when dual wielding you have to use the same type of attack with both weapons, so you can't suppress with one and focus fire with the second. either both have to be focused, or both could be suppressive (altough I suppose you could supress on two seperate firing arcs)

[Raiden]

awesome, so we now have a troll dual wielding battle rifles, at basically no addition recoil comp. T.T dear god the dakka (he has ammo drums, and firing selection mods) has about 8-10 dice per rifle.. its scary.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Per RAW, this is not allowed.

Attacker Using a Second Firearm
Characters can use two pistol- or SMG-class weapons, one in each hand, firing both with a single Simple Action.

1. Only pistol or SMGs
2. Only for Simple Actions

[Raiden]

Large firearms (anything rifl e-sized and larger) are typically
used with two hands. A character wielding a large fi rearm with only
one hand will suff er a –2 dice pool modifi er to ranged attacks (–1
for trolls).

Arsenal page 162. this seems to imply they could use two.

Only SMG or smaller-sized weapons that can be fi red with
a Simple Action can be fi red simultaneously. Th is means that you
may not fi re a full burst (which requires a Complex Action) while
simultaneously fi ring another weapon. It is possible, however, to
fi re a full-auto long burst simultaneously with another weapon, or
even to fire long bursts with two weapons at the same time.


page 163, note, one can fire two long bursts with two of said weapons at the same time.


now after reading this I believe it would be silly to not allow the guy doing this to fire suppressive fire. since a full auto long burst is essentially aimed suppressive fire.

[SpellBinder]

Thematically speaking, I think it'd be crazy funny to see a burly troll with an LMG tucked into each arm unloading bullets from each at roughly 1,200 rounds per minute. I'd probably even allow it to happen, as long as both weapons are being fired in the same general area and with all the usual penalties the firing mode may entail.

[Raiden]

Thematically speaking, I think it'd be crazy funny to see a burly troll with an LMG tucked into each arm unloading bullets from each at roughly 1,200 rounds per minute. I'd probably even allow it to happen, as long as both weapons are being fired in the same general area and with all the usual penalties the firing mode may entail.

thats basically what seems to be what would happen. cept its battle rifles lol with EX-explosive ammo. wide burst with a base 8 damage is insane... course if they just take full cover that -6 hurts that dice pool alot. but I forget, if you get no hits one you roll, but the defender cant roll due to modifiers, is that a glancing blow or??

[almost normal]

Raiden, I don't believe it indicates the acceptability of using two assault weapons, merely that you could wield an assault rifle in one hand and leave the second free, perhaps wielding a melee weapon or shield with it.

[Raiden]

the wording is terrible in Arsenal, but common sense wise someone wielding two assault rifles is actually better then two pistols simultaneously IRL and IG and far from improbable . if you have to house rule it I would say, you can, but it takes a complex action to fire both simultaneously IE suppressive fire or full round burst. also must be facing the same general direction and bracing them on your hip. in the end its more for thematic purposes, 2 SMGs with the right mods and ammo are just as deadly as the rifles in this game. Imagine a troll in a trench coat and hat/shades rounding the corner into a room full of mobsters, pulling out from under his coat two drum loaded assault rifles, saying "say ello to meh litteh friends" (cliche yea yea) or imagine him going "RAWHAHAHA, I AM BULLET PROOFFF!!!!" or he just doesn't say anything at all, and opening fire. now imagine they are uzi's. still just about as deadly, but less effective in the thematic purpose. but perhaps they really do only want SMGs to be dual wielded bleh.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Terminator, ala the Police Station Scene. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Medicineman]

ansd don't Forget Nartakis or Surged Ones with 4 Arms
They could easily wield 2 Assault Rifles
....And Surged Trolls could wield 4 Assault Rifles (or 4 Assault Shotguns) with only -1 to each......

He who dances like Shiva
Medicineman

[Dolanar]

ala Matrix style?

[Lionhearted]

I take your ratatat! and raise it with a Fomp!

This discussion do need more dakka

[Raiden]

I take your ratatat! and raise it with a Fomp!

This discussion do need more dakka

SURGED troll with 6 arms wielding 3 semi auto rocket launchers with an amo cap. of 4 rockets each?

[Lionhearted]

SURGED troll with 6 arms wielding 3 semi auto rocket launchers with an amo cap. of 4 rockets each?

Now that's thematic!

[almost normal]

SURGED troll with 6 arms wielding 3 semi auto rocket launchers with an amo cap. of 4 rockets each?

No no no no no.

6 arms wielding MGL-6's, eye lasers, mouth gun, and leg LAWs, combined with the lightning reflexes quality.

I'm torn between calling it the 'First Strike' and the 'I'm so sorry, I swear this never happens to me'

[FuelDrop]

Can you fire the gun you're holding and the integrated weapon in the cyber arm holding it at the same time?

[Christian Lafay]

No no no no no.

6 arms wielding MGL-6's, eye lasers, mouth gun, and leg LAWs, combined with the lightning reflexes quality.

I'm torn between calling it the 'First Strike' and the 'I'm so sorry, I swear this never happens to me'

At that point I would, as the character, think that recoil would be a good thing. Or at least interesting. Point your weapons in the right direction, stand on a tip toe, and go for a spin. Become like the Death Blossom.

[Falconer]

The text in arsenal is quite clear... it's only by not understanding the terminology that it isn't clear. 'Long burst' is a simple action just like a 'short burst' (6rounds vs 3round burst... you're only allowed to make 1 long as a simple action each action phase).

So the rules in arsenal are 100% in synch with the main book. Only SMG's or pistols and firing both at once requires a simple action (no complex actions allowed) and splitting the attack pool. No laying down suppression fire with one gun while picking off targets with the other. Though you can still fire one gun with one hand, then fire the second with your second action and the other. Cinematically who cares if you say you fire both at once or not... just provided you follow the rules for balance reasons.

[Cabral]

No no no no no.

6 arms wielding MGL-6's, eye lasers, mouth gun, and leg LAWs, combined with the lightning reflexes quality.

I'm torn between calling it the 'First Strike' and the 'I'm so sorry, I swear this never happens to me'

You forgot Articulated Weapon Arms and External Mounts...

[Raiden]

what I am saying is its not that much more broken allowing them to dual ARs or BRs with long bursts. (1 damage more? manye 1 more -1ap?) at a -2 recoil loss seems fair. but read the way I house ruled the whole supresive fire thing.

and at the troll with 6 arms do not forget he is riding a Steel lynx that has been upgraded with 3 more weapon mounts :3

[The Jopp]

Amateurs

Troll changeling with 6 arms

6 lower obvious cyberlims
6 gun mounts
6 LMG,s with underbarrel LMG's mounted on arms
6 lmg's as above in his hands
Pilot software with targeting in guns

Everyone fire as one in one giant dicepool co-op test wit 24 full auto covering fire lmg's.

[Byrel]

Let's just run the numbers on that one. Take a modern LMG, the M249. It fires 5.56 NATO rounds, with a bullet weight of around 63 gr (varies a bit based on which military.) The powder load varies a bit more, but 25 grains is on the low side. A lower estimate for muzzle velocity is 900m/s. All told, this means a momentum transfer of about 5.9 mkg/s/bullet. Each gun fires 20 rounds per combat turn. Let's assume our troll has a couple initiative enhancers, for an easy 1s/combat turn. Mr. Dakka here will feel a force of 640 lbf of recoil from just the LMGs. Continuously.

Assuming our troll weighs in at around 10 slugs, and is standing on a reasonably good surface (dry concrete), wearing, say, run flats, that's a net backwards acceleration of 32 ft/s^2. That's right, even assuming he's mounted on rails so he doesn't fall over backwards, and has his feet braced, he's accelerating a a full gravity while firing.

To be honest, this suggests a novel approach. Rather than firing your puny 24 LMGs at the opposition, why not just turn around? At one gravity acceleration (I'm assuming the troll is actually an unwilling participant in this act, and is still dragging his heels) He'll reach about 55 mph in 2.5 seconds, in less than a football field of length. I'm pretty sure the enemies cover won't survive a 320 lb troll hitting them at highway speeds.

Now it might be a touch painful for the troll as well, but hey! think how much you can make off his 'ware!