So someone was asking wether or not a troll was allowed to dual wield two assualt rifles /drums at the same time. and lay down supprisive fire/semi focused fire with them. or if this would work with LMGs. he has a str of 9. Is it possible? if so, how does the recoil get modified? would it be the same as dual wielding two pistols recoil wise? (I would hope not)

"Arsenal" features some expanded combat rules (and a lot of people play with them, I think they're good).
One of them is that a person who tries to fire a normally two-handed weapon with one hand gets a -2 modifier to that check. Trolls get only -1 (due to bigger hands and arms, probably). Another rule is that characters with exceptionally high Strength attributes get additional recoil compensation.
So, technically, a troll might be able to pull this off and still have dice left for those shooting tests. These rules are on pp. 161-163, "Arsenal".
Also take into account that suppressive fire requires a complex action, whereas most focused shots only need simple actions (all but full auto bursts). I've got no idea how that works together.

They don't...
You either take your Complex Action (which uses up any others) or you take a Simple+ (whcih precludes any Complex Actions).

when dual wielding you have to use the same type of attack with both weapons, so you can't suppress with one and focus fire with the second. either both have to be focused, or both could be suppressive (altough I suppose you could supress on two seperate firing arcs)

awesome, so we now have a troll dual wielding battle rifles, at basically no addition recoil comp. T.T dear god the dakka (he has ammo drums, and firing selection mods) has about 8-10 dice per rifle.. its scary.

Per RAW, this is not allowed.

1. Only pistol or SMGs
2. Only for Simple Actions

Large firearms (anything rifl e-sized and larger) are typically
used with two hands. A character wielding a large fi rearm with only
one hand will suff er a –2 dice pool modifi er to ranged attacks (–1
for trolls).

Arsenal page 162. this seems to imply they could use two.

Only SMG or smaller-sized weapons that can be fi red with
a Simple Action can be fi red simultaneously. Th is means that you
may not fi re a full burst (which requires a Complex Action) while
simultaneously fi ring another weapon. It is possible, however, to
fi re a full-auto long burst simultaneously with another weapon, or
even to fire long bursts with two weapons at the same time.


page 163, note, one can fire two long bursts with two of said weapons at the same time.


now after reading this I believe it would be silly to not allow the guy doing this to fire suppressive fire. since a full auto long burst is essentially aimed suppressive fire.

Thematically speaking, I think it'd be crazy funny to see a burly troll with an LMG tucked into each arm unloading bullets from each at roughly 1,200 rounds per minute. I'd probably even allow it to happen, as long as both weapons are being fired in the same general area and with all the usual penalties the firing mode may entail.

thats basically what seems to be what would happen. cept its battle rifles lol with EX-explosive ammo. wide burst with a base 8 damage is insane... course if they just take full cover that -6 hurts that dice pool alot. but I forget, if you get no hits one you roll, but the defender cant roll due to modifiers, is that a glancing blow or??

Raiden, I don't believe it indicates the acceptability of using two assault weapons, merely that you could wield an assault rifle in one hand and leave the second free, perhaps wielding a melee weapon or shield with it.

the wording is terrible in Arsenal, but common sense wise someone wielding two assault rifles is actually better then two pistols simultaneously IRL and IG and far from improbable . if you have to house rule it I would say, you can, but it takes a complex action to fire both simultaneously IE suppressive fire or full round burst. also must be facing the same general direction and bracing them on your hip. in the end its more for thematic purposes, 2 SMGs with the right mods and ammo are just as deadly as the rifles in this game. Imagine a troll in a trench coat and hat/shades rounding the corner into a room full of mobsters, pulling out from under his coat two drum loaded assault rifles, saying "say ello to meh litteh friends" (cliche yea yea) or imagine him going "RAWHAHAHA, I AM BULLET PROOFFF!!!!" or he just doesn't say anything at all, and opening fire. now imagine they are uzi's. still just about as deadly, but less effective in the thematic purpose. but perhaps they really do only want SMGs to be dual wielded bleh.

Terminator, ala the Police Station Scene.

ansd don't Forget Nartakis or Surged Ones with 4 Arms
They could easily wield 2 Assault Rifles
....And Surged Trolls could wield 4 Assault Rifles (or 4 Assault Shotguns) with only -1 to each......

He who dances like Shiva
Medicineman

ala Matrix style?

I take your ratatat! and raise it with a Fomp!

This discussion do need more dakka

SURGED troll with 6 arms wielding 3 semi auto rocket launchers with an amo cap. of 4 rockets each?

Now that's thematic!

No no no no no.

6 arms wielding MGL-6's, eye lasers, mouth gun, and leg LAWs, combined with the lightning reflexes quality.

I'm torn between calling it the 'First Strike' and the 'I'm so sorry, I swear this never happens to me'

Can you fire the gun you're holding and the integrated weapon in the cyber arm holding it at the same time?

At that point I would, as the character, think that recoil would be a good thing. Or at least interesting. Point your weapons in the right direction, stand on a tip toe, and go for a spin. Become like the Death Blossom.

The text in arsenal is quite clear... it's only by not understanding the terminology that it isn't clear. 'Long burst' is a simple action just like a 'short burst' (6rounds vs 3round burst... you're only allowed to make 1 long as a simple action each action phase).

So the rules in arsenal are 100% in synch with the main book. Only SMG's or pistols and firing both at once requires a simple action (no complex actions allowed) and splitting the attack pool. No laying down suppression fire with one gun while picking off targets with the other. Though you can still fire one gun with one hand, then fire the second with your second action and the other. Cinematically who cares if you say you fire both at once or not... just provided you follow the rules for balance reasons.

You forgot Articulated Weapon Arms and External Mounts...

what I am saying is its not that much more broken allowing them to dual ARs or BRs with long bursts. (1 damage more? manye 1 more -1ap?) at a -2 recoil loss seems fair. but read the way I house ruled the whole supresive fire thing.

and at the troll with 6 arms do not forget he is riding a Steel lynx that has been upgraded with 3 more weapon mounts :3

Amateurs

Troll changeling with 6 arms

6 lower obvious cyberlims
6 gun mounts
6 LMG,s with underbarrel LMG's mounted on arms
6 lmg's as above in his hands
Pilot software with targeting in guns

Everyone fire as one in one giant dicepool co-op test wit 24 full auto covering fire lmg's.

Let's just run the numbers on that one. Take a modern LMG, the M249. It fires 5.56 NATO rounds, with a bullet weight of around 63 gr (varies a bit based on which military.) The powder load varies a bit more, but 25 grains is on the low side. A lower estimate for muzzle velocity is 900m/s. All told, this means a momentum transfer of about 5.9 mkg/s/bullet. Each gun fires 20 rounds per combat turn. Let's assume our troll has a couple initiative enhancers, for an easy 1s/combat turn. Mr. Dakka here will feel a force of 640 lbf of recoil from just the LMGs. Continuously.

Assuming our troll weighs in at around 10 slugs, and is standing on a reasonably good surface (dry concrete), wearing, say, run flats, that's a net backwards acceleration of 32 ft/s^2. That's right, even assuming he's mounted on rails so he doesn't fall over backwards, and has his feet braced, he's accelerating a a full gravity while firing.

To be honest, this suggests a novel approach. Rather than firing your puny 24 LMGs at the opposition, why not just turn around? At one gravity acceleration (I'm assuming the troll is actually an unwilling participant in this act, and is still dragging his heels) He'll reach about 55 mph in 2.5 seconds, in less than a football field of length. I'm pretty sure the enemies cover won't survive a 320 lb troll hitting them at highway speeds.

Now it might be a touch painful for the troll as well, but hey! think how much you can make off his 'ware!

Stop using fissics and logic, that has no place here.

Besides, all of them has GV4 and heavy barrel so all he needs is a good backpack for all the belt ammo to give him a counterweight.

Let's look at the same character with 30 fingertip Monowhips instead...

Monowhip is reach 2 ^^

Cant you read - he's using 30, not 2.

One word: Rollerblades.

heck, with that firepower he could literally walk on air if he aimed down!

ok, lets add some things here.

12 M249: 10KG each fully loaded with 100 rounds.

That's 120 kilogram.

Fully laden troll with clothing and armor would be around 270-300 kilograms if we go by the size of Andre the Giant who weighted 270 kilograms.

Then we add 100 extra rounds per gun in a backpack for the belt rounds. That's 2,5 kilograms per gun, so 25kg.

Total weight is 415 kilograms.

Im sorry, but recoil alone will not move 4/5 of half a tonne.

The Troll will weight more around 360-380 Kilo by Itself ( 300-330 Kilo naked & Armor & Equipment)
Plus 120 Kilos for the 6 LMGs
(Which are Ingram White Knight and Fully Recoil compensated )

So its Half a Ton all in all

with a very Heavy Dance
Medicineman

How much weight do the cyberarms and milspec armour add?

Okay, I dramatically underestimated the mass of our Troll projectile. SR4A says 300kg is a common weight, so, tacking on 150-200kg for guns ammo, and armor (Like he needs it; any bullet is going to hit his ammo belts anyhow... ) he masses in at just shy of half a metric ton, or around 34 slugs. Now it's true that he won't slide if he's wearing runflats on dry concrete; he will, of course, flip over, but we're neglecting that failure mode for the sake of awesomeness.

However, lets assume this Mr. AwesomeDakkaSquared is living in Seattle. Where dry pavement is about as common as honest Lone Star cops. Then even in runflats (which I keep using 'cause tires really do have a lot of friction with concrete.) you're look at a friction coefficient of mu=0.3. Or, only being able to resist around 330 lbs out of your 640 lb recoil.

Now, admittedly, all that mass is going to make you accelerate more slowly across the wet pavement. Your trogectile's acceleration is only going to be around 2.75 m/s^2, which means it'll take it a whole nine seconds to reach our target 55 mph. At which, the trogck now has only 150 kJ of energy, or roughly that of a small CAR running at highway speeds...

Even more effective, no? Just hope he doesn't damage too many of his light machin^W^W propulsion equipment in the crash...

Edit: Oh, and just in case you were wondering how much spare ammo he needs to cart around to be stable (for some, ill-defined usage of that word) on wet concrete, it works out to 19000 rounds of ammo. Which will, of course, only hold him still until he actually starts firing his lead downrange, at which point his weight decreases steadily as he accelerates backwards... And it takes him about 48 seconds to run out of ammo completely, by which time he'll be going, oh, around 150 mph. At which point we should really start paying attention to air resistance... a Very Fast and Heavy Dance.

What about bracing then? And please, stop using physics and LOGIC here.

The question is how much force is reflected back on from the firing start until a 20 round burst is fired. We might as well add how much force is actually applied for that combat ACTION.

With Synaptic II he has 3 actions per combat turn where he uses a complex action to fire 20 rounds per gun during 1 second.

It wont be enough TIME to flip over or accelerate backwards.

this reminds me of another broken area, saw a troll roll 50+ dice to resist damage. he had a 40 armor, and an overall +13 body dice. no, he was not encumbered rule wise. he also had a reaction of 8 lol. so all in all a total of 60 dice tops, at a -1 ap. O.o how do you hurt that with normal dakka. not to menthin about 16 stun modifier boxes and either 19 or 20 physical con boxes. made out of chummer...

How do you hurt him with normal dakka? use more. I'm thinking multiple miniguns firing full auto more...

This is why i prefer SR3. Ok, we have a few custom adept powers that functions similar to Orthoskin so he has 15 damage resist and a total of 12 armor.

He can still be killed when something has (D) damage level and the TN is above 2+ because ID he takes a (S) damage it's 6 boxes of damage regardless.

SR4 system is simply a number of Dice which makes the threat level of even a heavy pistol miniscule, a weapon that CAN kill a troll if handled properly but is almost impossible to kill a troll with in SR4.

the guy survived and walked away from basically the equivalent of a tank round . (yes he was an aug. adept.) and my bad was only 11 body. plus he had a straight up -1 damage red. he was not the best shot but.. he doesn't need to be lol. but yes, perhaps multiple miniguns firing APDS or EX/ex. ammo narrow burst could force him back lol.

Oh, I thought you meant normal ammo.
Holdout pistol with capsule rounds full of fun nasty stuff will do the job. Pepper punch can probably cut it. Breathtaker grenades are also nice. If he's running a chem seal then injection darts would do the job, and if he's shielded from that as well (Milspec armour springs to mind) then a HMG with anti-tank rounds (from that book) might cut it.
Of course, if he's running a chem seal then just get your hacker to take control and purge his air supply before unleashing the breathtaker/nausea gas.

SnS ammo, broken ammo is SnS ammo. lol

I stayed away from that on purpose

In SR3 my troll gets...annoyed by burst SMG's and worried by LMG's on full auto. He took a full auto 10 round to the chest and then told then rigger to shoot a great dragon ATM at the garage opening where he was standing to take out the multiple red samurais and cybermonster - he could take the edge of the blast, the samurai's would not.

In SR4 he would not even CARE about the LMG if I made him right.

Hey! I thought specializing was a GOOD thing! I just took bod, str, rea, cha, int, and agi as dumpstats at chargen. I mean, that and my technical knowledge skill in Physics at 6 gives me a DP of 13. What am I supposed to use here?

Anyway, if, for some reason, Sir Dakka was happy with a single initiative pass of dakka, he would still receive 640 lbs of force. Yes, for only one second, but imagine getting hit in the chest with a 16 lb sledgehammer. Travelling at 21 ft/s. THAT is what Sir Dakka is feeling. Whether he manages to recover his balance or not, I think it counts as a staggering blow.

But I can't imagine why he would settle for one pass, when he could burn through 19000 rounds of ammo, AND escape to the next county on roller blades in 45 seconds. Really now, be reasonable.

adept troll with miltech heacvy armor ballistic shield, full body suit and PPC anyone?

So, unless bracing against a wall we should do a knockdown test while anything in front of him automatically becomes swiss cheese and not allowed to dodge - after all, 24 dodge tests will fail as their reaction is dropped by each.

Gonna be expensive with APDS ammo...

Perhaps we should use FA shotguns instead with Shot rounds...

Custom gear to get it shorter. Essentially, buy one get one. With the troll reach it comes out to two at the end of the day.

Using your numbers plus what has been provided by others.

Muzzle Velocity : 900m/s
Bullet Weight : 0.063kg
x12 M249 Weight : 120kg
Troll Weight : 370kg

The force of the firing weapons is 900*0.063*12 = 680.4. Divide that by 490 and you have a movement of the troll of ~1.3m/s assuming all 12 weapons are firing simultaneously and we're ignoring other elements like recoil compensation, bracing, or various other effects.

Now entertain the idea that Mr Dakka got tired of zooming around town and decided to get weapons where the main source of dakka wasn't kinetic propulsion... Like say a grenade launcher (it's not the fomp that kills you its the boom!), obviously the propulsion of a grenade would require way less force!
So how much Fomp(assuming it was propelled to a distance where it didn't blow his face off) would it require to get our friend skiing again?

Now that I think about it... If Mr Dakka had the talents of the before mentioned sponge monsters, maybe he could explode in his face.

Also railguns, magnetic acceleration does a thing or too to reduce recoil no?

yeah that troll could be taken out by an Adept Master Sniper using SnS rounds pretty quickly...1/2 armor sucks for a troll who is all about the Armor

Better yet...Punch Master adept using Sonic elemental fists....no armor counts, that 40 armor is useless against something that bypasses all armor, beyond that the punch master just has to get pas the 11 body vs his likely 15ish dice to hit, add in a Called shot to increase damage....looking at easily 15+nets to soak with 11 dice.

the troll also was very competent in useing a combat axe. so dont forget the defending skills.