Close combat skills, Why clubs is the best group. Options

[FuelDrop]

To a non-melee-master it's still worth dropping a point or two into a close combat skill in case the worst should happen and you find yourself going toe to toe with a thug when the tides of the run sweep you together. So, which skill do you go for?

Now, if this was firearms then the obvious choice would be automatics, a skill that can fill almost any role on the battlefield. for close combat...


Blades:
The blades group is extremely versatile, going from the cheap and extremely cheerful ceramic knife to the Apocalypse WOW that is the Nadachi. If you want someone dead up close and personal for minimal investment then this is the skill for you.

Right now you're wondering what's the catch? If blades are so badass, why isn't this the go-to skill for all runners? It's simple, their greatest strength is also their greatest weakness. Simply put, blades kill people. This group has no non-lethal options, which means that if it's your only skill then your only option is to kill people.

Unarmed:
To be truly good at unarmed combat takes a lot of investment. Be it martial arts, bone lacing, or magical powers, unarmed combat isn't something you just put a few skill points in and call it a day if you want to take a professional opponent down. However... unarmed combat has 2 strengths:

1) Convenience. No security guard in the world is going to confiscate your hands... well, unless you have a detachable cyberlimb or something. As a result, this is the one combat skill which will always be at your disposal.
2) Minimal investment. In order to be good at unarmed combat you need to put a lot of effort in. in order to be passable and flexible you need a pair of hardliner gloves and a pair of shock gloves. That's it, and it's very cheap.

Unarmed also has a big weakness... reach. Specifically, it doesn't have any. This is a serious disadvantage when you've only got a point or two of skill, as superior reach can be both an offensive and a defensive advantage. By focusing on unarmed you're effectively forfeiting this advantage.

Clubs:
The holy grail of close combat skills, clubs is the skill that covers the most tactical situations well. Here are a couple of the highlights:
1) Portable reach. a telescoping staff is a reach two weapon that is extremely easy to conceal and has no restrictions on ownership.
2) Power for the weak. If your strength is low then your best melee weapon is some form of stun baton or derivative, all of which (with the exception of shock gloves) are covered by clubs.
3) Pick up battles: Improvised clubs are one of the easiest things to get your hands on, including the butt of your rifle and the bar stool. if you can't smuggle a club into your destination it's unlikely to matter, as unless you're in a bare room then there's almost certain to be something to hit someone with.

The only areas that clubs are truly inferior to blades is that they are a) often slightly less damaging and b) non-electrical clubs tend to fare poorly against armour.


Because of the flexibility and ubiquity of club-like weapons it is MY opinion that if you're only doing a 1 to 2 point dip into a close combat skill, clubs is the way to go.

Or am I wrong...?

[Lansdren]

Your logic seems pretty good although I would point out that Unarmed can be handy, with a +2 for touch attacks shock gloves can be very nice with limited investment and if a troll no issue with reach and if they are pan enabled you can control when you use them with a thought.

[Makki]

if you're going for one melee skill only, why not take Exotic Melee (Sai)?
1) they're legal
2) they're lethal
3) they're non-lethal
4) they're The best weapon for disarming your opponent, negating his reach bonus, if any.

[Stahlseele]

Why not Whips?
Added utility for binding people or swinging around on and stuff.
Come in both lethal and nonlethal.
Use Agility instead of STR, so compliment gun skills . .
Easy to hide in both lethal and nonlethal variant.
Lethal in your fingertip and nonlethal is a belt.

[Aerospider]

Why not Whips?
Added utility for binding people or swinging around on and stuff.
Come in both lethal and nonlethal.
Use Agility instead of STR, so compliment gun skills . .
Easy to hide in both lethal and nonlethal variant.
Lethal in your fingertip and nonlethal is a belt.

In what way do you use Agility instead of Strength?

The two reasons for why not whips is the danger of glitches and that they need their own skill where the world of whips is much smaller than the world of clubs or the world of blades.

[Stahlseele]

isn't the used attribute for the whip skill agility instead of str?
under SR3 it was qck at least.
a whip does not need and strength, technically speaking.
it just needs a fast wrist and the physics do the rest.
and so the world of whips is smaller, who cares?
if you can do everything you need with 2 weapons that you can do with 20 weapons, why would you ever need 20 weapons instead of just 2?

[Halinn]

isn't the used attribute for the whip skill agility instead of str?

All the weapon skills use agility. Strength is only for determining damage with regards to those.

[Stahlseele]

d'oh yeah, right, i forgot x.x

[Dakka Dakka]

Well the Monofilament Whip has a fixed damage of 8P AP-4. No STR there.

Don't forget that any melee weapon (even those that do P damage) can be used to subdue people, and thus do S damage.

The main advantage I see for clubs over blades is that you can make your firearms into melee weapons without needing to have a bayonet.

[Neraph]

Your logic seems pretty good although I would point out that Unarmed can be handy, with a +2 for touch attacks shock gloves can be very nice with limited investment and if a troll no issue with reach and if they are pan enabled you can control when you use them with a thought.

You can get that same +2 for Touch Only with a stun baton.

[bannockburn]

Don't forget hitting people with the butt of your automatic weapon! Also Clubs skill ^^
Edit: Ah, d'oh. Need to learn how to read. -.-

On a related note:
Says one baby seal to the other: "Let's go clubbing"

[Falconer]

I disagree on the bits about unarmed combat. The nice thing about unarmed is like you say it can't be taken away... no one looks twice at you as you go through the security scanners with your bare knuckles. In many cases, your goal isn't to inflict harm with the skill... it's to prevent others from inflicting harm on you using their melee skill in the opposed test.

Two, I disagree with the assertion that it takes a ton of investment to get good results.

For the cost of 2 ranks in everything with the group... you can get 5 ranks in unarmed (more likely 4). Toss on a specialization like (+2 Defense). And you've got a passable skill you can always use when someone comes at you in melee for defense. If that happens to be a mage... weapon focus hardliner gloves are a nasty surprise when you suddenly start dropping a pile of 20 dice on defense when a spirit materilizes next to you or that street sam thinks he'll easily be able to slice you in twain.


Three, I disagree with the people who say you can't use things like two weapon defense while unarmed... fists are considered weapons with a reach of 0 or 1. It makes no sense to gimp one melee option when it's available to the other two... and the other two do it better to boot.


Not to take too much from the rest... blades big thing is that it is the large amount of damage it can do with minimal investment. Fire axe anyone... swords... etc.


Clubs definitely the most flexible for improvised weapons... and grab and go. Guns and all the rest... Not arguing any of that. I merely disagree with the comments as regards unarmed and it's investment needs.

[UmaroVI]

There's an argument for all three weapons skills as a "secondary" weapon - meaning, not what you are primarily focused on, but rather something you have 1(specialization +2) in as a backup.

Blades has a few selling points here. Spurs are very good (nothing else is both highly concealable and S/2+3). If you were already going to be really strong - or can put them in a high-strength cyberlimb - spurs are a solid backup weapon. The other selling point is bayonets - you can attach blades to any or all of your guns, to ensure you can always add Blades to melee defense. Also, Nodachi are mostly for silly; the pink mohawk blades weapon is the vibroblade sword.

The main drawbacks are no fixed-damage weapons.

Clubs you already pointed out the advantages of.

Unarmed, the big selling point is that you can't be disarmed of it, which is quite important if it is your backup weapon. If you can get a stun baton into somewhere, you could probably also have brought a taser. Shock Gloves aren't as good as electric clubs, but they are alright. Also, Subduing is really, really good, if situational.

[DenverDoc]

To a non-melee-master it's still worth dropping a point or two into a close combat skill in case the worst should happen and you find yourself going toe to toe with a thug when the tides of the run sweep you together. So, which skill do you go for?

Now, if this was firearms then the obvious choice would be automatics, a skill that can fill almost any role on the battlefield. for close combat...


Blades:
The blades group is extremely versatile, going from the cheap and extremely cheerful ceramic knife to the Apocalypse WOW that is the Nadachi. If you want someone dead up close and personal for minimal investment then this is the skill for you.

Right now you're wondering what's the catch? If blades are so badass, why isn't this the go-to skill for all runners? It's simple, their greatest strength is also their greatest weakness. Simply put, blades kill people. This group has no non-lethal options, which means that if it's your only skill then your only option is to kill people.

Unarmed:
To be truly good at unarmed combat takes a lot of investment. Be it martial arts, bone lacing, or magical powers, unarmed combat isn't something you just put a few skill points in and call it a day if you want to take a professional opponent down. However... unarmed combat has 2 strengths:

1) Convenience. No security guard in the world is going to confiscate your hands... well, unless you have a detachable cyberlimb or something. As a result, this is the one combat skill which will always be at your disposal.
2) Minimal investment. In order to be good at unarmed combat you need to put a lot of effort in. in order to be passable and flexible you need a pair of hardliner gloves and a pair of shock gloves. That's it, and it's very cheap.

Unarmed also has a big weakness... reach. Specifically, it doesn't have any. This is a serious disadvantage when you've only got a point or two of skill, as superior reach can be both an offensive and a defensive advantage. By focusing on unarmed you're effectively forfeiting this advantage.

Clubs:
The holy grail of close combat skills, clubs is the skill that covers the most tactical situations well. Here are a couple of the highlights:
1) Portable reach. a telescoping staff is a reach two weapon that is extremely easy to conceal and has no restrictions on ownership.
2) Power for the weak. If your strength is low then your best melee weapon is some form of stun baton or derivative, all of which (with the exception of shock gloves) are covered by clubs.
3) Pick up battles: Improvised clubs are one of the easiest things to get your hands on, including the butt of your rifle and the bar stool. if you can't smuggle a club into your destination it's unlikely to matter, as unless you're in a bare room then there's almost certain to be something to hit someone with.

The only areas that clubs are truly inferior to blades is that they are a) often slightly less damaging and b) non-electrical clubs tend to fare poorly against armour.


Because of the flexibility and ubiquity of club-like weapons it is MY opinion that if you're only doing a 1 to 2 point dip into a close combat skill, clubs is the way to go.

Or am I wrong...?

I like your break down of the options and I feel they are very well thought out. My only thought on why unarmed is superior is that when combat starts chances are you aren't going to have anything in your hands to defend with, club wise. Which is why I have to recommend unarmed. That and if you are using a weapon that is not suited to be a club you have to draw the darn thing to use it in combat, taking a simple action and then you are either off hand penalty defending if you drew the club off hand or attacking with whatever your primary weapon is going to be if that instead is in your off hand. Of course if your planning is very superior and you rarely find yourself defending then perhaps club is the way to go.

[Elfenlied]

Three, I disagree with the people who say you can't use things like two weapon defense while unarmed... fists are considered weapons with a reach of 0 or 1. It makes no sense to gimp one melee option when it's available to the other two... and the other two do it better to boot.

The rules actually say that you cannot use the two-weapon fighting rules for unarmed. It doesn't explicitly forbid the use of the two weapon defense maneuver, although it is highly implied.

That said, for me it boilds down to:
Unarmed: The holy grail of melee fighting, IF you have the resources to improve it. A single rank with spec makes shock gloves a viable backup weapon.
EW(Monowhip): Great weapon for high agility, low strengh characters, e.g. your typical Elf sam. Has a lower DP that can be somewhat compensated by reach.

[Lionhearted]

Out of curiousity, if you're holding a weapon in both hands can you still use your other limbs for unarmed combat? (not all at once obviously)

[Dakka Dakka]

Out of curiousity, if you're holding a weapon in both hands can you still use you're other limbs for unarmed combat? (not all at once obviously)

There is nothing explicit in the rules, but I'd say given the abstract nature of SR's combat system it's OK, possibly with a dice pool modifier. But then again, I'd rule that combat always is a full body action so high attributes in one cyberlimb would not work.

I don't see though why you would want to do that. If you have weapons in your hand, they are almost always better than your bare limbs. If they're not, why are you holding them in the first place?

[Lionhearted]

Kicking the charging orc straight in the jaw while your AR needs reloading?

[Makki]

There is nothing explicit in the rules, but I'd say given the abstract nature of SR's combat system it's OK, possibly with a dice pool modifier. But then again, I'd rule that combat always is a full body action so high attributes in one cyberlimb would not work.

I don't see though why you would want to do that. If you have weapons in your hand, they are almost always better than your bare limbs. If they're not, why are you holding them in the first place?

Kicking is actually better, than using your hands, because you can get a reach modifier with the appropriate maneuver and bonus damage with Raptor legs.

[Dakka Dakka]

Kicking the charging orc straight in the jaw while your AR needs reloading?

A rifle butt or a bayonet would achieve the same thing

[Elfenlied]

Kicking the charging orc straight in the jaw while your AR needs reloading?

Always remember to carry a sidearm (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Lionhearted]

But Mooom, I wanna kick orks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[FuelDrop]

A rifle butt or a bayonet would achieve the same thing

Or an Ares Bravo or Sierra from the book which dare not speak it's name.

[Aerospider]

isn't the used attribute for the whip skill agility instead of str?
under SR3 it was qck at least.
a whip does not need and strength, technically speaking.
it just needs a fast wrist and the physics do the rest.
and so the world of whips is smaller, who cares?
if you can do everything you need with 2 weapons that you can do with 20 weapons, why would you ever need 20 weapons instead of just 2?

But if you lose your whip or get caught without it you're going to come across several knives and clubs before you find another whip.

I'm not saying they're bad, just giving you the downsides like you asked.

[Stahlseele]

Well, the Fingertip-Compartment-Whip is kinda hard to lose at least.