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FuelDrop
To a non-melee-master it's still worth dropping a point or two into a close combat skill in case the worst should happen and you find yourself going toe to toe with a thug when the tides of the run sweep you together. So, which skill do you go for?

Now, if this was firearms then the obvious choice would be automatics, a skill that can fill almost any role on the battlefield. for close combat...


Blades:
The blades group is extremely versatile, going from the cheap and extremely cheerful ceramic knife to the Apocalypse WOW that is the Nadachi. If you want someone dead up close and personal for minimal investment then this is the skill for you.

Right now you're wondering what's the catch? If blades are so badass, why isn't this the go-to skill for all runners? It's simple, their greatest strength is also their greatest weakness. Simply put, blades kill people. This group has no non-lethal options, which means that if it's your only skill then your only option is to kill people.

Unarmed:
To be truly good at unarmed combat takes a lot of investment. Be it martial arts, bone lacing, or magical powers, unarmed combat isn't something you just put a few skill points in and call it a day if you want to take a professional opponent down. However... unarmed combat has 2 strengths:

1) Convenience. No security guard in the world is going to confiscate your hands... well, unless you have a detachable cyberlimb or something. As a result, this is the one combat skill which will always be at your disposal.
2) Minimal investment. In order to be good at unarmed combat you need to put a lot of effort in. in order to be passable and flexible you need a pair of hardliner gloves and a pair of shock gloves. That's it, and it's very cheap.

Unarmed also has a big weakness... reach. Specifically, it doesn't have any. This is a serious disadvantage when you've only got a point or two of skill, as superior reach can be both an offensive and a defensive advantage. By focusing on unarmed you're effectively forfeiting this advantage.

Clubs:
The holy grail of close combat skills, clubs is the skill that covers the most tactical situations well. Here are a couple of the highlights:
1) Portable reach. a telescoping staff is a reach two weapon that is extremely easy to conceal and has no restrictions on ownership.
2) Power for the weak. If your strength is low then your best melee weapon is some form of stun baton or derivative, all of which (with the exception of shock gloves) are covered by clubs.
3) Pick up battles: Improvised clubs are one of the easiest things to get your hands on, including the butt of your rifle and the bar stool. if you can't smuggle a club into your destination it's unlikely to matter, as unless you're in a bare room then there's almost certain to be something to hit someone with.

The only areas that clubs are truly inferior to blades is that they are a) often slightly less damaging and b) non-electrical clubs tend to fare poorly against armour.


Because of the flexibility and ubiquity of club-like weapons it is MY opinion that if you're only doing a 1 to 2 point dip into a close combat skill, clubs is the way to go.

Or am I wrong...?
Lansdren
Your logic seems pretty good although I would point out that Unarmed can be handy, with a +2 for touch attacks shock gloves can be very nice with limited investment and if a troll no issue with reach and if they are pan enabled you can control when you use them with a thought.
Makki
if you're going for one melee skill only, why not take Exotic Melee (Sai)?
1) they're legal
2) they're lethal
3) they're non-lethal
4) they're The best weapon for disarming your opponent, negating his reach bonus, if any.
Stahlseele
Why not Whips?
Added utility for binding people or swinging around on and stuff.
Come in both lethal and nonlethal.
Use Agility instead of STR, so compliment gun skills . .
Easy to hide in both lethal and nonlethal variant.
Lethal in your fingertip and nonlethal is a belt.
Aerospider
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Oct 26 2012, 02:11 PM) *
Why not Whips?
Added utility for binding people or swinging around on and stuff.
Come in both lethal and nonlethal.
Use Agility instead of STR, so compliment gun skills . .
Easy to hide in both lethal and nonlethal variant.
Lethal in your fingertip and nonlethal is a belt.

In what way do you use Agility instead of Strength?

The two reasons for why not whips is the danger of glitches and that they need their own skill where the world of whips is much smaller than the world of clubs or the world of blades.
Stahlseele
isn't the used attribute for the whip skill agility instead of str?
under SR3 it was qck at least.
a whip does not need and strength, technically speaking.
it just needs a fast wrist and the physics do the rest.
and so the world of whips is smaller, who cares?
if you can do everything you need with 2 weapons that you can do with 20 weapons, why would you ever need 20 weapons instead of just 2?
Halinn
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Oct 26 2012, 05:14 PM) *
isn't the used attribute for the whip skill agility instead of str?

All the weapon skills use agility. Strength is only for determining damage with regards to those.
Stahlseele
d'oh yeah, right, i forgot x.x
Dakka Dakka
Well the Monofilament Whip has a fixed damage of 8P AP-4. No STR there.

Don't forget that any melee weapon (even those that do P damage) can be used to subdue people, and thus do S damage.

The main advantage I see for clubs over blades is that you can make your firearms into melee weapons without needing to have a bayonet.
Neraph
QUOTE (Lansdren @ Oct 26 2012, 06:12 AM) *
Your logic seems pretty good although I would point out that Unarmed can be handy, with a +2 for touch attacks shock gloves can be very nice with limited investment and if a troll no issue with reach and if they are pan enabled you can control when you use them with a thought.

You can get that same +2 for Touch Only with a stun baton.
bannockburn
Don't forget hitting people with the butt of your automatic weapon! Also Clubs skill ^^
Edit: Ah, d'oh. Need to learn how to read. -.-

On a related note:
Says one baby seal to the other: "Let's go clubbing"
Falconer
I disagree on the bits about unarmed combat. The nice thing about unarmed is like you say it can't be taken away... no one looks twice at you as you go through the security scanners with your bare knuckles. In many cases, your goal isn't to inflict harm with the skill... it's to prevent others from inflicting harm on you using their melee skill in the opposed test.

Two, I disagree with the assertion that it takes a ton of investment to get good results.

For the cost of 2 ranks in everything with the group... you can get 5 ranks in unarmed (more likely 4). Toss on a specialization like (+2 Defense). And you've got a passable skill you can always use when someone comes at you in melee for defense. If that happens to be a mage... weapon focus hardliner gloves are a nasty surprise when you suddenly start dropping a pile of 20 dice on defense when a spirit materilizes next to you or that street sam thinks he'll easily be able to slice you in twain.


Three, I disagree with the people who say you can't use things like two weapon defense while unarmed... fists are considered weapons with a reach of 0 or 1. It makes no sense to gimp one melee option when it's available to the other two... and the other two do it better to boot.


Not to take too much from the rest... blades big thing is that it is the large amount of damage it can do with minimal investment. Fire axe anyone... swords... etc.


Clubs definitely the most flexible for improvised weapons... and grab and go. Guns and all the rest... Not arguing any of that. I merely disagree with the comments as regards unarmed and it's investment needs.

UmaroVI
There's an argument for all three weapons skills as a "secondary" weapon - meaning, not what you are primarily focused on, but rather something you have 1(specialization +2) in as a backup.

Blades has a few selling points here. Spurs are very good (nothing else is both highly concealable and S/2+3). If you were already going to be really strong - or can put them in a high-strength cyberlimb - spurs are a solid backup weapon. The other selling point is bayonets - you can attach blades to any or all of your guns, to ensure you can always add Blades to melee defense. Also, Nodachi are mostly for silly; the pink mohawk blades weapon is the vibroblade sword.

The main drawbacks are no fixed-damage weapons.

Clubs you already pointed out the advantages of.

Unarmed, the big selling point is that you can't be disarmed of it, which is quite important if it is your backup weapon. If you can get a stun baton into somewhere, you could probably also have brought a taser. Shock Gloves aren't as good as electric clubs, but they are alright. Also, Subduing is really, really good, if situational.

DenverDoc
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Oct 26 2012, 11:07 AM) *
To a non-melee-master it's still worth dropping a point or two into a close combat skill in case the worst should happen and you find yourself going toe to toe with a thug when the tides of the run sweep you together. So, which skill do you go for?

Now, if this was firearms then the obvious choice would be automatics, a skill that can fill almost any role on the battlefield. for close combat...


Blades:
The blades group is extremely versatile, going from the cheap and extremely cheerful ceramic knife to the Apocalypse WOW that is the Nadachi. If you want someone dead up close and personal for minimal investment then this is the skill for you.

Right now you're wondering what's the catch? If blades are so badass, why isn't this the go-to skill for all runners? It's simple, their greatest strength is also their greatest weakness. Simply put, blades kill people. This group has no non-lethal options, which means that if it's your only skill then your only option is to kill people.

Unarmed:
To be truly good at unarmed combat takes a lot of investment. Be it martial arts, bone lacing, or magical powers, unarmed combat isn't something you just put a few skill points in and call it a day if you want to take a professional opponent down. However... unarmed combat has 2 strengths:

1) Convenience. No security guard in the world is going to confiscate your hands... well, unless you have a detachable cyberlimb or something. As a result, this is the one combat skill which will always be at your disposal.
2) Minimal investment. In order to be good at unarmed combat you need to put a lot of effort in. in order to be passable and flexible you need a pair of hardliner gloves and a pair of shock gloves. That's it, and it's very cheap.

Unarmed also has a big weakness... reach. Specifically, it doesn't have any. This is a serious disadvantage when you've only got a point or two of skill, as superior reach can be both an offensive and a defensive advantage. By focusing on unarmed you're effectively forfeiting this advantage.

Clubs:
The holy grail of close combat skills, clubs is the skill that covers the most tactical situations well. Here are a couple of the highlights:
1) Portable reach. a telescoping staff is a reach two weapon that is extremely easy to conceal and has no restrictions on ownership.
2) Power for the weak. If your strength is low then your best melee weapon is some form of stun baton or derivative, all of which (with the exception of shock gloves) are covered by clubs.
3) Pick up battles: Improvised clubs are one of the easiest things to get your hands on, including the butt of your rifle and the bar stool. if you can't smuggle a club into your destination it's unlikely to matter, as unless you're in a bare room then there's almost certain to be something to hit someone with.

The only areas that clubs are truly inferior to blades is that they are a) often slightly less damaging and b) non-electrical clubs tend to fare poorly against armour.


Because of the flexibility and ubiquity of club-like weapons it is MY opinion that if you're only doing a 1 to 2 point dip into a close combat skill, clubs is the way to go.

Or am I wrong...?


I like your break down of the options and I feel they are very well thought out. My only thought on why unarmed is superior is that when combat starts chances are you aren't going to have anything in your hands to defend with, club wise. Which is why I have to recommend unarmed. That and if you are using a weapon that is not suited to be a club you have to draw the darn thing to use it in combat, taking a simple action and then you are either off hand penalty defending if you drew the club off hand or attacking with whatever your primary weapon is going to be if that instead is in your off hand. Of course if your planning is very superior and you rarely find yourself defending then perhaps club is the way to go.
Elfenlied
QUOTE (Falconer @ Oct 27 2012, 12:21 AM) *
Three, I disagree with the people who say you can't use things like two weapon defense while unarmed... fists are considered weapons with a reach of 0 or 1. It makes no sense to gimp one melee option when it's available to the other two... and the other two do it better to boot.


The rules actually say that you cannot use the two-weapon fighting rules for unarmed. It doesn't explicitly forbid the use of the two weapon defense maneuver, although it is highly implied.

That said, for me it boilds down to:
Unarmed: The holy grail of melee fighting, IF you have the resources to improve it. A single rank with spec makes shock gloves a viable backup weapon.
EW(Monowhip): Great weapon for high agility, low strengh characters, e.g. your typical Elf sam. Has a lower DP that can be somewhat compensated by reach.
Lionhearted
Out of curiousity, if you're holding a weapon in both hands can you still use your other limbs for unarmed combat? (not all at once obviously)
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Oct 27 2012, 10:31 AM) *
Out of curiousity, if you're holding a weapon in both hands can you still use you're other limbs for unarmed combat? (not all at once obviously)
There is nothing explicit in the rules, but I'd say given the abstract nature of SR's combat system it's OK, possibly with a dice pool modifier. But then again, I'd rule that combat always is a full body action so high attributes in one cyberlimb would not work.

I don't see though why you would want to do that. If you have weapons in your hand, they are almost always better than your bare limbs. If they're not, why are you holding them in the first place?
Lionhearted
Kicking the charging orc straight in the jaw while your AR needs reloading?
Makki
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 27 2012, 10:39 AM) *
There is nothing explicit in the rules, but I'd say given the abstract nature of SR's combat system it's OK, possibly with a dice pool modifier. But then again, I'd rule that combat always is a full body action so high attributes in one cyberlimb would not work.

I don't see though why you would want to do that. If you have weapons in your hand, they are almost always better than your bare limbs. If they're not, why are you holding them in the first place?

Kicking is actually better, than using your hands, because you can get a reach modifier with the appropriate maneuver and bonus damage with Raptor legs.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Oct 27 2012, 10:51 AM) *
Kicking the charging orc straight in the jaw while your AR needs reloading?
A rifle butt or a bayonet would achieve the same thing
Elfenlied
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Oct 27 2012, 08:51 AM) *
Kicking the charging orc straight in the jaw while your AR needs reloading?


Always remember to carry a sidearm nyahnyah.gif
Lionhearted
But Mooom, I wanna kick orks frown.gif
FuelDrop
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 27 2012, 05:25 PM) *
A rifle butt or a bayonet would achieve the same thing

Or an Ares Bravo or Sierra from the book which dare not speak it's name.
Aerospider
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Oct 26 2012, 04:14 PM) *
isn't the used attribute for the whip skill agility instead of str?
under SR3 it was qck at least.
a whip does not need and strength, technically speaking.
it just needs a fast wrist and the physics do the rest.
and so the world of whips is smaller, who cares?
if you can do everything you need with 2 weapons that you can do with 20 weapons, why would you ever need 20 weapons instead of just 2?

But if you lose your whip or get caught without it you're going to come across several knives and clubs before you find another whip.

I'm not saying they're bad, just giving you the downsides like you asked.
Stahlseele
Well, the Fingertip-Compartment-Whip is kinda hard to lose at least.
_Pax._
QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 26 2012, 03:03 PM) *
You can get that same +2 for Touch Only with a stun baton.

It's easier to slip a pair of shock-gloves into an interior jacket pocket, than it is to hide a stun baton. smile.gif
FuelDrop
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Oct 27 2012, 09:49 PM) *
It's easier to slip a pair of shock-gloves into an interior jacket pocket, than it is to hide a stun baton. smile.gif

I always wanted a telescoping stunstaff or a collapsible stun baton. You'd think that Ares would have made something to fill the niche by now...
Whipstitch
Let's not lose sight of something important though: Melee is friggin' terrible in SR4 and ironically its role is to help hard-counter the poor fraggers that over invested in melee but aren't well-optimized. It's not really a question of lethality, but of context; a knife or taser club can plausibly defeat you in SR4, but the cost of having a reasonable melee defense is for the most part lower than the cost of having a reasonably threatening melee offense. In such an environment, what I really want for most characters is comprehensive melee defense at as low of a cost as I can manage, and that's where Unarmed wins out over Clubs in my books. Clubs may have a mild advantage in the form of reach, but I consider that to be less than a wash when you consider these three points:

1. Don't have to draw your weapons, can't be disarmed short of being tied or dismembered, blah, blah, nothing to see here that hasn't been covered.

2. Again, this has been covered, but subdual is one of the few non-magical ways to immobilize someone without resorting to injury. I'm not a big fan of strength, but your bog standard ork or troll with 5 or 7 Strength after muscle augs can likely drag off your average human or elf extraction target just fine. Note that Subdual damage is also just plain Strength, not Strength/2, so in pinch it can still lap pistol whipping someone to death after a turn or two and is reasonably safe in the meantime if you're fighting one on one.

3. Oh, hey, it's subdual again. Remember when I said "comprehensive melee defense" earlier? Well, once someone establishes a lock in Subdual combat the victim must resist with Strength+Unarmed Combat before taking any actions that require physical movement. Now, I don't really advocate boosting Strength beyond being an Ork with Muscle Augmentations as a luxury buy, but taking Unarmed 4 instead of Clubs 4 and at least having 5 dice plus Edge to throw at the problem if a rent-a-cop puts you in a headlock? It's a questionable use of points, but I can tell you from personal experience that people like retelling the story of how your slick elf samurai with dumped strength got noogied unconscious by a dwarf janitor.

Anyway, though, yeah, clubs vs. unarmed is pretty close and if you really like the flavor of being more than a dabbler in melee than I would actually recommend Clubs over Unarmed. Problem is, being more than a dabbler isn't something I'd recommend unless your char op fu is strong and feel reasonably comfortable that your character can contribute with bp to spare.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Oct 28 2012, 02:44 AM) *
2. Again, this has been covered, but subdual is one of the few non-magical ways to immobilize someone without resorting to injury. I'm not a big fan of strength, but your bog standard ork or troll with 5 or 7 Strength after muscle augs can likely drag off your average human or elf extraction target just fine. Note that Subdual damage is also just plain Strength, not Strength/2, so in pinch it can still lap pistol whipping someone to death after a turn or two and is reasonably safe in the meantime if you're fighting one on one.
That can be done with blades or clubs as well.

Otherwise I agree with you, optimizing melee is only worth it if you have a way to avoid/resist having to run through a hail of gunfire.
Xahn Borealis
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Oct 26 2012, 10:07 AM) *
To a non-melee-master it's still worth dropping a point or two into a close combat skill in case the worst should happen and you find yourself going toe to toe with a thug when the tides of the run sweep you together. So, which skill do you go for?

Now, if this was firearms then the obvious choice would be automatics, a skill that can fill almost any role on the battlefield. for close combat...


Don't mind me, coming in and missing the point of the topic entirely.
What I say is, Automatics is perfect to use on the battlefield, but on the streets you want Pistols. A Heavy Pistol is likely to be less restricted than a Machine Pistol, which uses Automatics, and does more damage per shot. Also, weapons that use Automatics tend to be harder to conceal, and recoil is always gonna be a concern. With a handgun, you can just add Electronic Firing or a Personalised Grip and call it a day, leaving room for other mods, whereas getting a recoil compensation rating up to 9 (allowing two Full Bursts or one Long Burst with no recoil modifier) would not only use up all your mod slots, but also result in a heavily customised and noticable weapon. If you have a pistol in a concealable holster, I may never be able to tell, even with a close look, that you could shoot down up to 20 people in about 10 seconds. But I can see your assault rifle poking out there, and you couldn't add a chameleon coating, because you needed that auto-adjusting underbarrel weight.

When you bring a gun to a knife fight, make sure you bring the right one. nyahnyah.gif
Lionhearted
QUOTE (Xahn Borealis @ Oct 28 2012, 06:39 PM) *
When you bring a gun to a knife fight, make sure you bring the right one. nyahnyah.gif

A gunblade? *Noise of every gun in the thread getting pointed this way*
Xahn Borealis
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Oct 28 2012, 06:36 PM) *
A gunblade? *Noise of every gun in the thread getting pointed this way*

*Hands you an Ares Bravo* Go on, get cracking.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Xahn Borealis @ Oct 28 2012, 06:39 PM) *
A Heavy Pistol is likely to be less restricted than a Machine Pistol,
There is no rule for this. there are only three states an item can have. Freely available, Restricted and Forbidden. AFAIK There is no SR4 publication that further distinguishes in the Restricted group.

QUOTE (Xahn Borealis @ Oct 28 2012, 06:39 PM) *
Also, weapons that use Automatics tend to be harder to conceal, and recoil is always gonna be a concern.
The skill is not responsible but the Firing Mode. A BF or FA modded Pistol will have even more problems with recoil than a machine pistol.

QUOTE (Xahn Borealis @ Oct 28 2012, 06:39 PM) *
With a handgun, you can just add Electronic Firing or a Personalised Grip and call it a day,
If you restrict yourself to SA this is true.

QUOTE (Xahn Borealis @ Oct 28 2012, 06:39 PM) *
whereas getting a recoil compensation rating up to 9 (allowing two Full Bursts or one Long Burst with no recoil modifier) would not only use up all your mod slots, but also result in a heavily customised and noticable weapon.
That is why you use two SMGs with 5 RC each in a short range firefight. Easy to get not very noticeable and packs enough punch.
Xahn Borealis
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 28 2012, 07:02 PM) *
There is no rule for this. there are only three states an item can have. Freely available, Restricted and Forbidden. AFAIK There is no SR4 publication that further distinguishes in the Restricted group.

I didn't mean Restricted, just restricted. The Availability for most pistols is lower. Didn't mean for confusion.
Udoshi
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Oct 27 2012, 07:57 AM) *
I always wanted a telescoping stunstaff or a collapsible stun baton.


One of the only good things in War! is the Victorinox Smartstaff. I think arsenal also has a telescoping staff.

There's a few ways to do this.
The underbarrel weapon mod in arsenal has a special mention of being able to be used on melee weapons. Using the specific example of the 'sword with a pistol in the hilt' example, you can replace pistol with taser - and use a defiance ex shocker, which has melee capability. The special environment mod for being electrified/having insulation should protect the user.
The other is to start with a stunstick and add Powered Easy Breakdown. This lets it be assembled in two complex actions. A smartgun system(does nothing) and a pilot upgrade 1 gives it Actions it can use to extend itself on command. It's not ideal, but it works.
Theoretically, it's possible to just use a smartlink and a node script(the same kind that makes smartguns automatically eject empty clips), but a smartlink alone doesn't have actions it can spend.
Whipstitch
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 28 2012, 01:22 AM) *
That can be done with blades or clubs as well.


Not exactly, and not without preparation, dealing damage and substances of questionable legality. The toxins which paralyze opponents without inflicting further damage are injection vector,* which means that in order to dose someone with Gamma-Scopolamine you need to come at them with a knife and deal damage on the initial attack or have them in a vulnerable enough position that the GM is OK with handwaving things and allowing you to get them on a no damage attack with a plain jane syringe--btw, one of the easier ways of scoring that vulnerable status is having your buddy hit them with a subdue attack for you first. Your other club and blade based options in SR4 all involve stun damage and otherwise beating someone unconscious. Which, incidentally, doesn't necessarily even work if they're under the influence of a Pain Editor or a sustained Awaken spell. On top of that, even immediate speed drugs don't take effect until the end of the combat turn, so it's actually possible to get your net hits on your attack and still get shot or knifed for your trouble whereas once someone is successfully hit with a Subdual attack they must win a test prior to taking other physical actions--in SR4 the half Nelson is seriously one of the quickest ways to tie up an inferior opponent without undue harm to either party. It's simply way more legal, way safer and makes much less of a scene if your li'l fight happens to be at the pub instead of some kind of black ops scenario.


*Ymir is a contact vector Paralysis attack but it is illegal like whoa and has a bad habit of giving people a bad case of dead.
Dakka Dakka
You are mistaken. I'm not talking about applying poison to a target. You can subdue an opponent with clubs and blades as well as unarmed combat. You only can't improve your grip with the first two skills. This might be a mistake on the part of the writers.
Whipstitch
Ah, yeah, that's right, strictly speaking you can initiate a subdual with melee attacks but everything else runs off of Unarmed.


In my defense, nobody's ran a primary melee character at my table in about 4 years because we're not masochists.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Oct 28 2012, 10:49 PM) *
Ah, yeah, that's right, strictly speaking you can initiate a subdual with melee attacks but everything else runs off of Unarmed.
Strictly speaking only escaping the grapple and improving the grip needs Unarmed Combat, everything else either works with all melee skills or is independent of skills.
Neraph
QUOTE (DenverDoc @ Oct 26 2012, 08:51 PM) *
I like your break down of the options and I feel they are very well thought out. My only thought on why unarmed is superior is that when combat starts chances are you aren't going to have anything in your hands to defend with, club wise. Which is why I have to recommend unarmed. That and if you are using a weapon that is not suited to be a club you have to draw the darn thing to use it in combat, taking a simple action and then you are either off hand penalty defending if you drew the club off hand or attacking with whatever your primary weapon is going to be if that instead is in your off hand. Of course if your planning is very superior and you rarely find yourself defending then perhaps club is the way to go.

Forearm Slide + Collapseable Baton + (GM approved) Powered Slide = Fast Baton Wielding.

QUOTE (Xahn Borealis @ Oct 28 2012, 11:39 AM) *
Don't mind me, coming in and missing the point of the topic entirely.
What I say is, Automatics is perfect to use on the battlefield, but on the streets you want Pistols. A Heavy Pistol is likely to be less restricted than a Machine Pistol, which uses Automatics, and does more damage per shot. Also, weapons that use Automatics tend to be harder to conceal, and recoil is always gonna be a concern. With a handgun, you can just add Electronic Firing or a Personalised Grip and call it a day, leaving room for other mods, whereas getting a recoil compensation rating up to 9 (allowing two Full Bursts or one Long Burst with no recoil modifier) would not only use up all your mod slots, but also result in a heavily customised and noticable weapon. If you have a pistol in a concealable holster, I may never be able to tell, even with a close look, that you could shoot down up to 20 people in about 10 seconds. But I can see your assault rifle poking out there, and you couldn't add a chameleon coating, because you needed that auto-adjusting underbarrel weight.

When you bring a gun to a knife fight, make sure you bring the right one. nyahnyah.gif

Machine Pistols have SA mode also. I use MPs as large-capacity pistols, not as short-lived death-spray.

QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Oct 28 2012, 12:36 PM) *
A gunblade? *Noise of every gun in the thread getting pointed this way*

From my archives...:
Gunblade
[ Spoiler ]


Vibro-Lasblade
[ Spoiler ]
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 31 2012, 09:11 AM) *
Forearm Slide + Collapseable Baton + (GM approved) Powered Slide = Fast Baton Wielding.


Why does it need to be powered?
A Forearm Slide already gives you a free action to equip a weapon, and extending the baton is a non-action. Therefore no GM approval really needed here. *shrug*
Stahlseele
Allow me to explain
*uses Tim Taylor Vocie* "MOAR POWA!"
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 28 2012, 11:02 AM) *
There is no rule for this. there are only three states an item can have. Freely available, Restricted and Forbidden. AFAIK There is no SR4 publication that further distinguishes in the Restricted group.


That is something I miss from SR3, even if it was a hassle at times to consult the table. The varying levels of restricted.
NiL_FisK_Urd
QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 31 2012, 04:11 PM) *
Gunblade
[ Spoiler ]

If you make the Ares Predator into the underbarrel weapon, the Predator needs the Underbarrel Weapon mod.
Dakka Dakka
It has never been clear whether the mod slots are applied to the weapon taking an underbarrel weapon or the weapon attached under the barrel:
QUOTE ('Arsenal p. 153)
If you instead want to rebuild a specific weapon into an underbarrel weapon and attach it to the barrel of your gun, you can do so as follows:
This implies the mod goes to the prospective underbarrel weapon.
QUOTE ('Arsenal p. 153)
This mod is generally only available for longarms, machine guns, and assault cannons.
Unless they really try to say only really big weapons can be made into an underbarrel weapon, this implies the mod goes to the host.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 31 2012, 02:53 PM) *
It has never been clear whether the mod slots are applied to the weapon taking an underbarrel weapon or the weapon attached under the barrel:This implies the mod goes to the prospective underbarrel weapon.
Unless they really try to say only really big weapons can be made into an underbarrel weapon, this implies the mod goes to the host.


Maybe both weapons require the mod.
Dakka Dakka
This would be ridiculous. How is slapping a grenade launcher bola launcher (to use an equally exotic weapon) on a rail any different from attaching a crossbow to the same rail?
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 31 2012, 03:24 PM) *
This would be ridiculous. How is slapping a grenade launcher bola launcher (to use an equally exotic weapon) on a rail any different from attaching a crossbow to the same rail?


The point being that the weapon with the underbarrel mod needs to be modded to accept underbarrels and the underbarrel weapon itself must be modded to be used in an underbarrel mount. That's why both could feasible require the modification.
Dakka Dakka
This makes no sense if you can buy grenade launchers, flamethrowers and even bola launchers as accessories.
phlapjack77
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Oct 28 2012, 08:44 AM) *
2. Again, this has been covered, but subdual is one of the few non-magical ways to immobilize someone without resorting to injury.

Subdual, while wearing armor or clothing with shock frills smile.gif
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