Mind Probe Alterations? Options

[Socinus]

Yes, I did a search on this prior. I know its cropped up a few times but I haven't found anywhere it was really talked about for more than a few posts.

I'm playing in a game and we have a player who has Mind Probe. Its starting to get a little...grating. We don't have to interrogate anyone, we don't have to really do any serious leg-work, we don't have to do any real research, we just grab someone, Mind Probe them, and either drop them off in a park or off a bridge.

Is there any modifications/houserules that can be done to make it not such an insta-hit? I know there's outright banning it, but we're trying to avoid that if possible.

[kzt]

The SR "I win" buttons are kind of a pain. It's hard to effectively limit them because they are so overpowered. The obvious GM trick is to not have people wandering around who know all the secret stuff who can be casually snatched. Typically you need to do quite a bit of research to even find out who knows what you are looking for. It's not like a corp or the Mafia publishes a list of who has access to what secret projects.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

If he just mind-probes everyone he comes across - slap him with notoriety, the "bad rep" NQ, the "Wanted" NQ (when he mind-raped someone important), the "Enemy" NQ, etc. If he keeps this up despite all the things he does, send a sniper. A bullet to the head will stop this.

[Manunancy]

Depedning on how often this happens and the amount of caution applied (does he assense the target or the like), once i na while he can stumble upon something nasty - be it wagesale possessed by something nasty tha tmight be interested in changing host, someone who's been loaded with a mind-blasting spell activated upon mindprobing or the like. Not somethng to be abused, but it can happen, just has a fighter might happen to stumble upon a covert agent filled with nasty and well hidden combat ware.

And I concur with NIL, havt use of mindprobe is the sort of shenanigans that gives mages a bad press - the more he's known for invading other's mind, the less he will be trusted.

[Makki]

the reputation for these spells is as bad as you can think of. The term mind rape is very common, although unpopular with some users here. As we know from real life, in the victims point of view, rape can be worse than killing.
I have read a shadowrun, where the mind spell using magician's reputation was so aweful among the shadows, that the team never blinked an eye or thought about rescuing him, when in trouble. They were glad he was gone. It took a lot of composure and professionalism to not geek him themselves.
Reading someone's mind is the last breach of privacy. Who'd want that?

[Glyph]

Mind probe can substitute for interrogation, but it can't really substitute for legwork - you still need to track people down, sift through rumors, hack into databases, etc.

If you have let them abduct easily kidnapped mooks, who conveniently know the information that they need, then kill them, without any consequences or complications, then you have been far too easy on them. For one thing, it shouldn't be that easy to get the information they want; more sensitive information will be known by fewer, and better protected, people. Mooks will also tend to have partial information, slanted viewpoints, and sometimes even disinformation.

Also, indiscriminately kidnapping (and often killing) people will eventually get them in trouble - it's one thing for gangers to commit depredations in the Barrens, but targeting people from all walks of life will eventually get the wrong kind of attention, be it corporate, a syndicate, or the cops. At that point, they won't be taking a hit to their notoriety - they will be hunted down like mad dogs.

[Elfenlied]

Ask yourself this: would you rather have the player play out torture sessions for the captured people instead of mind probes?

[Garou]

I see little difference between Mind Probing a guy and torturing him in the setting. There IS a canon bias against mind manipulation (as seen on the Street Legends chapter about Haze). It's the kind of thing that gets Notoriety in my view. If Mind Probe = Rape, the team should ask themselves this: Would they work with a guy that rapes children? I am stretching here, for the sake of the argument. Maybe the answer is yes, but i find hard to believe they would keep that behavior a watertight secret after the run was over.Therefore the notoriety.

On the other hand...

There will always be a market for Mind Probers, as always there will be a market for rough, cruel wetwork. But, as in rough cruel wetwork, it tends to limit the scope of jobs available. If the group is fine with that (and the lack of cooperation from a few contacts. Know-who-you-walk-with and all), i see no reason for punishing the player for this other than the notorierty and bad rep increase.

[Irion]

Sorry, but I feel here a lot of OOC bias in a lot of comments.

Mindprobe is not hated because the effects are nasty or because the intrusive nature. It is hated, because it is god damn effective.

The same runners who are here crying around about mind probe don't probably care a bit if confronted with sex slaves, human traffic or BTL or other drugs.

It not so much the "mind-rape" it is the "story-rape".


@Makki

Reading someone's mind is the last breach of privacy. Who'd want that?

Compared to what?
Beeing shot into the head and left to rot... I guess 99% of people would take the mindprobe. (Well, maybe fewer. But everybody who has something to live for)

If Mindprobe could not destinguish between fact and fiction it wouldn't be hated that much. Because well, it could fuck you up if you blackmail that guy with a murder, but he just day-dreamed of murdering his ex-wife....

Even if you had to perform a ritual murder on the guy you like to question and then force his spirit to give you the information it would not be so disliked. Becuase it would at least come with restrictions. I think kzt but it right, it is an "I WIN BUTTON".

[Midas]

Pretty much what Glyph said:

1) Complications with the snatch
Target sec mook goes bowling with work buddies then taxi back with them to corp housing; PCs have to do the deed without the other guys noticing etc

2) I don't know nuffink
Not everyone knows what the PCs need to know.
Passcodes can be updated randomly and without warning - occasionally it might change the morning after the PCs get the code of a mook

Mind Probe is a very useful spell, but the target knows after he/she has been subjected to it in the same way a drugged person can remember being raped unless spells such as Alter Memory or other such tactics are also used (unless the target is executed after the probe, of course). If a sec mook got taken down with laes, it would prompt a change of passcodes and routines as soon as he is discovered, or late for a shift etc.

Combination use of Mind Probe, Influence and/or Alter Memory can be pretty effective methods to gain information and assist infiltration, but the GM should try to throw the occasional spanner in the works so such tactics don't become the way the PCs solve everything. Also, bear in mind that Corp Sec has had years to develop countermeasures to such magical tactics, so may prep their employees to report to their Psych officer if they have experienced cases of memory loss, laes poisoning, strange compulsions to do things etc.

[Makki]

@Makki

Compared to what?
Beeing shot into the head and left to rot... I guess 99% of people would take the mindprobe. (Well, maybe fewer. But everybody who has something to live for)

the alternative to Mind Rape is Negotiation or Blackmail, etc. How would killing help you get information? I see Mind Probe kind of like torture to force the information out of somebody. Less time consuming, less bloody, but with long lasting psychological stress.

[Irion]

@Midas
It burns down to the fact, that there is no counter messure.

If there would be the possibility to sent the runners on a wild goose chase if the do not exactly know what they are looking for... That would be something.

Like wait... Girls beeing abducted and then sold off on auctions to wealthy clients from the middle east. Wasn't there a reto trid about that....

Because no matter what you throw: Mind probe+ Alter memory is quite the safe way...

[Midas]

@Midas
It burns down to the fact, that there is no counter messure.
<Snip>
Because no matter what you throw: Mind probe+ Alter memory is quite the safe way...

Yes, those and Influence can be fairly good in combination. Saying that, they add up to 9 BP/15 karma, and if taken at CharGen 3 of their allotted spells.

Depends on the info that you need, though. If you need to know the Co President's schedule to the airport, perhaps you will have to target him, his secretary, his head bodyguard as they are the only three that know it, and none of them are particularly easy targets.

If you need to find a reclusive psycho through a friend, perhaps he doesn't know where the recluse is, so Mind Probe comes up a blank ... but if they ask him nicely, he might recall the guy mentioning a cafe once or twice on the phone.

Extremely useful spells on many occasions I am sure, but not always the right tool for the job ...

[Irion]

@Midas
But like you said, those are only 9BP or 15 Karma.
Thats a general Problem in SR. Mages get the "all inclusive pack" at chargen.

If you need to find a reclusive psycho through a friend, perhaps he doesn't know where the recluse is, so Mind Probe comes up a blank ... but if they ask him nicely, he might recall the guy mentioning a cafe once or twice on the phone.

And thats exactly the problem. Mindprobe gives you effectivly (RAW as far as I understand it) EVERYTHING. Roll your dice good enough and you can cure his childhood trauma in just one session...


So yes, it is not always the right tool. But we are not talking about sacrificing 23 vergins following a very complicated ritual of several hours, which has to be followed perfectly using those three very rare artifacts as a fokus etc.pp.
We are talking here 15 Karma and snip your finger for delivery.
I do not say mighty things are not allowed to be mighty/usefull. They just should not come at such low prices...

[Elfenlied]

To be fair, it's 9BP + 40/65BP + 15BP. Being a mage costs a lot of resources, making you a very narrowly focused character. Also, Alter Memory is not permanent, so chances are, you will not be evading the repercussions/negative rep in the long run, unless you geek everyone involved.

That said, Mindprobe is stil preferable to the classic interrogation/torture + Laes/Kill. The latter consumes too much tabletime, and a lot of people can't stomach graphic descriptions. Mindprobe allows for an easy handwave of this tedious activity.

[attilatheyeon]

Give it a threshold

[toturi]

I do not say mighty things are not allowed to be mighty/usefull. They just should not come at such low prices...

A part of why these are so effective is that they come at a comparatively low cost.

[Halinn]

To be fair, it's 9BP + 40/65BP + 15BP. Being a mage costs a lot of resources, making you a very narrowly focused character. Also, Alter Memory is not permanent, so chances are, you will not be evading the repercussions/negative rep in the long run, unless you geek everyone involved.

That said, Mindprobe is stil preferable to the classic interrogation/torture + Laes/Kill. The latter consumes too much tabletime, and a lot of people can't stomach graphic descriptions. Mindprobe allows for an easy handwave of this tedious activity.

That's why you do mind probe + laes. It's more certain than interrogation.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And thats exactly the problem. Mindprobe gives you effectivly (RAW as far as I understand it) EVERYTHING. Roll your dice good enough and you can cure his childhood trauma in just one session...


So yes, it is not always the right tool. But we are not talking about sacrificing 23 vergins following a very complicated ritual of several hours, which has to be followed perfectly using those three very rare artifacts as a fokus etc.pp.
We are talking here 15 Karma and snip your finger for delivery.
I do not say mighty things are not allowed to be mighty/usefull. They just should not come at such low prices...

You still have to know what you are looking for. Mind Probe does not give you a Total Memory Dump. You get to ask Questions (Based upon the number of hits you get, these hits determine the depth of the information that you can ask for). Thus, you MUST know the right Questions to ask. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The subject may probe for one piece of information per Complex Action. Additional uses of Mind Probe against the same target within a number of hours equal to the target’s Willpower are at a –2 dice pool modifier per previous Spellcasting attempt.

1–2 Hits: The subject can read the target’s surface thoughts only.
3–4 Hits: The subject can find out anything the target consciously knows and view the target’s memories.
5+ Hits: The subject can probe the target’s subconscious, gaining information the target may not even be consciously aware of, like psychological quirks, deep fears, or hidden memories.

[kzt]

Give it a threshold

It has a threshold. The problem is that you are typically rolling 10 dice vs 3. So the average result (assuming no Foci) is 3 successes vs 1 success. So you can virtually always get surface thoughts and often get anything he knows. If the caster has optimized, with a focus or otherwise, he can usually get anything he knows and can sometimes do better. If the caster uses edge he can pretty much always dig though the subconscious at will.

[kzt]

That said, Mindprobe is stil preferable to the classic interrogation/torture + Laes/Kill. The latter consumes too much tabletime, and a lot of people can't stomach graphic descriptions. Mindprobe allows for an easy handwave of this tedious activity.

Not really. You say "I'm using intimidation to question him, with teamwork from blah, with a +8 situational etc modifier" and roll dice. Now the issue is that the rules don't really explain how to do this kind of thing (obviously it must be that we are running a weird game where trying to force people to tell us stuff comes up...) but that's the case for most of the stuff you can do in SR4. It certainly doesn't provide any actual interrogation rules.

Though I'll agree a set of rules for physically interrogating or torturing people would be kind of yucky.

[Socinus]

The discussion among the group is leaning in the "double the TN" direction. That keeps the spell useful but far less of an insta-win.

[Dakka Dakka]

Mindprobe gives you effectivly (RAW as far as I understand it) EVERYTHING. Roll your dice good enough and you can cure his childhood trauma in just one session...

Actually it does not. You can get everything that the character knows, but those things need not be facts, so misinformation and compartmentalization is key for the opposition. Also just because someone "knows" that all trolls are evil and eat children does not make it true. Mind Probe does not have any truth detection ability. Lastly knowing someone's childhood trauma does not cure him from it.

As a GM you can also delay giving out the relevant information. The caster only gets one piece of information per Complex Action. There is no way for the spell to sort the target's mind for relevance. Another problem for the caster is that the target knows it is being probed and is able to act normally the whole time, and backup may only be a free action away. If the PCs already have the target restrained and blocked his communication, there is not much difference between interrogation and mind probe, except that the latter is quicker.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Actually it does not. You can get everything that the character knows, but those things need not be facts, so misinformation and compartmentalization is key for the opposition. Also just because someone "knows" that all trolls are evil and eat children does not make it true. Mind Probe does not have any truth detection ability. Lastly knowing someone's childhood trauma does not cure him from it.

As a GM you can also delay giving out the relevant information. The caster only gets one piece of information per Complex Action. There is no way for the spell to sort the target's mind for relevance. Another problem for the caster is that the target knows it is being probed and is able to act normally the whole time, and backup may only be a free action away. If the PCs already have the target restrained and blocked his communication, there is not much difference between interrogation and mind probe, except that the latter is quicker.

Except that it is SO much easier to Mind Probe the Troll Heavy than it is to Interrogate/Torture him.

[Dakka Dakka]

Except that it is SO much easier to Mind Probe the Troll Heavy than it is to Interrogate/Torture him.

So it is basically juts the old "Magic does everything better" complaint. This is inherent in magic, I have yet to see a game that does not make magical ways of doing things more powerful than mundane ways, without sacrificing the whole "it's magic" feel.