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Socinus
Yes, I did a search on this prior. I know its cropped up a few times but I haven't found anywhere it was really talked about for more than a few posts.

I'm playing in a game and we have a player who has Mind Probe. Its starting to get a little...grating. We don't have to interrogate anyone, we don't have to really do any serious leg-work, we don't have to do any real research, we just grab someone, Mind Probe them, and either drop them off in a park or off a bridge.

Is there any modifications/houserules that can be done to make it not such an insta-hit? I know there's outright banning it, but we're trying to avoid that if possible.
kzt
The SR "I win" buttons are kind of a pain. It's hard to effectively limit them because they are so overpowered. The obvious GM trick is to not have people wandering around who know all the secret stuff who can be casually snatched. Typically you need to do quite a bit of research to even find out who knows what you are looking for. It's not like a corp or the Mafia publishes a list of who has access to what secret projects.
NiL_FisK_Urd
If he just mind-probes everyone he comes across - slap him with notoriety, the "bad rep" NQ, the "Wanted" NQ (when he mind-raped someone important), the "Enemy" NQ, etc. If he keeps this up despite all the things he does, send a sniper. A bullet to the head will stop this.
Manunancy
Depedning on how often this happens and the amount of caution applied (does he assense the target or the like), once i na while he can stumble upon something nasty - be it wagesale possessed by something nasty tha tmight be interested in changing host, someone who's been loaded with a mind-blasting spell activated upon mindprobing or the like. Not somethng to be abused, but it can happen, just has a fighter might happen to stumble upon a covert agent filled with nasty and well hidden combat ware.

And I concur with NIL, havt use of mindprobe is the sort of shenanigans that gives mages a bad press - the more he's known for invading other's mind, the less he will be trusted.
Makki
the reputation for these spells is as bad as you can think of. The term mind rape is very common, although unpopular with some users here. As we know from real life, in the victims point of view, rape can be worse than killing.
I have read a shadowrun, where the mind spell using magician's reputation was so aweful among the shadows, that the team never blinked an eye or thought about rescuing him, when in trouble. They were glad he was gone. It took a lot of composure and professionalism to not geek him themselves.
Reading someone's mind is the last breach of privacy. Who'd want that?
Glyph
Mind probe can substitute for interrogation, but it can't really substitute for legwork - you still need to track people down, sift through rumors, hack into databases, etc.

If you have let them abduct easily kidnapped mooks, who conveniently know the information that they need, then kill them, without any consequences or complications, then you have been far too easy on them. For one thing, it shouldn't be that easy to get the information they want; more sensitive information will be known by fewer, and better protected, people. Mooks will also tend to have partial information, slanted viewpoints, and sometimes even disinformation.

Also, indiscriminately kidnapping (and often killing) people will eventually get them in trouble - it's one thing for gangers to commit depredations in the Barrens, but targeting people from all walks of life will eventually get the wrong kind of attention, be it corporate, a syndicate, or the cops. At that point, they won't be taking a hit to their notoriety - they will be hunted down like mad dogs.
Elfenlied
Ask yourself this: would you rather have the player play out torture sessions for the captured people instead of mind probes?
Garou
I see little difference between Mind Probing a guy and torturing him in the setting. There IS a canon bias against mind manipulation (as seen on the Street Legends chapter about Haze). It's the kind of thing that gets Notoriety in my view. If Mind Probe = Rape, the team should ask themselves this: Would they work with a guy that rapes children? I am stretching here, for the sake of the argument. Maybe the answer is yes, but i find hard to believe they would keep that behavior a watertight secret after the run was over.Therefore the notoriety.

On the other hand...

There will always be a market for Mind Probers, as always there will be a market for rough, cruel wetwork. But, as in rough cruel wetwork, it tends to limit the scope of jobs available. If the group is fine with that (and the lack of cooperation from a few contacts. Know-who-you-walk-with and all), i see no reason for punishing the player for this other than the notorierty and bad rep increase.
Irion
Sorry, but I feel here a lot of OOC bias in a lot of comments.

Mindprobe is not hated because the effects are nasty or because the intrusive nature. It is hated, because it is god damn effective.

The same runners who are here crying around about mind probe don't probably care a bit if confronted with sex slaves, human traffic or BTL or other drugs.

It not so much the "mind-rape" it is the "story-rape".


@Makki
QUOTE
Reading someone's mind is the last breach of privacy. Who'd want that?

Compared to what?
Beeing shot into the head and left to rot... I guess 99% of people would take the mindprobe. (Well, maybe fewer. But everybody who has something to live for)

If Mindprobe could not destinguish between fact and fiction it wouldn't be hated that much. Because well, it could fuck you up if you blackmail that guy with a murder, but he just day-dreamed of murdering his ex-wife....

Even if you had to perform a ritual murder on the guy you like to question and then force his spirit to give you the information it would not be so disliked. Becuase it would at least come with restrictions. I think kzt but it right, it is an "I WIN BUTTON".
Midas
Pretty much what Glyph said:

1) Complications with the snatch
Target sec mook goes bowling with work buddies then taxi back with them to corp housing; PCs have to do the deed without the other guys noticing etc

2) I don't know nuffink
Not everyone knows what the PCs need to know.
Passcodes can be updated randomly and without warning - occasionally it might change the morning after the PCs get the code of a mook

Mind Probe is a very useful spell, but the target knows after he/she has been subjected to it in the same way a drugged person can remember being raped unless spells such as Alter Memory or other such tactics are also used (unless the target is executed after the probe, of course). If a sec mook got taken down with laes, it would prompt a change of passcodes and routines as soon as he is discovered, or late for a shift etc.

Combination use of Mind Probe, Influence and/or Alter Memory can be pretty effective methods to gain information and assist infiltration, but the GM should try to throw the occasional spanner in the works so such tactics don't become the way the PCs solve everything. Also, bear in mind that Corp Sec has had years to develop countermeasures to such magical tactics, so may prep their employees to report to their Psych officer if they have experienced cases of memory loss, laes poisoning, strange compulsions to do things etc.
Makki
QUOTE (Irion @ Nov 22 2012, 06:39 PM) *
@Makki

Compared to what?
Beeing shot into the head and left to rot... I guess 99% of people would take the mindprobe. (Well, maybe fewer. But everybody who has something to live for)

the alternative to Mind Rape is Negotiation or Blackmail, etc. How would killing help you get information? I see Mind Probe kind of like torture to force the information out of somebody. Less time consuming, less bloody, but with long lasting psychological stress.
Irion
@Midas
It burns down to the fact, that there is no counter messure.

If there would be the possibility to sent the runners on a wild goose chase if the do not exactly know what they are looking for... That would be something.

Like wait... Girls beeing abducted and then sold off on auctions to wealthy clients from the middle east. Wasn't there a reto trid about that....

Because no matter what you throw: Mind probe+ Alter memory is quite the safe way...
Midas
QUOTE (Irion @ Nov 22 2012, 06:35 PM) *
@Midas
It burns down to the fact, that there is no counter messure.
<Snip>
Because no matter what you throw: Mind probe+ Alter memory is quite the safe way...

Yes, those and Influence can be fairly good in combination. Saying that, they add up to 9 BP/15 karma, and if taken at CharGen 3 of their allotted spells.

Depends on the info that you need, though. If you need to know the Co President's schedule to the airport, perhaps you will have to target him, his secretary, his head bodyguard as they are the only three that know it, and none of them are particularly easy targets.

If you need to find a reclusive psycho through a friend, perhaps he doesn't know where the recluse is, so Mind Probe comes up a blank ... but if they ask him nicely, he might recall the guy mentioning a cafe once or twice on the phone.

Extremely useful spells on many occasions I am sure, but not always the right tool for the job ...
Irion
@Midas
But like you said, those are only 9BP or 15 Karma.
Thats a general Problem in SR. Mages get the "all inclusive pack" at chargen.

QUOTE
If you need to find a reclusive psycho through a friend, perhaps he doesn't know where the recluse is, so Mind Probe comes up a blank ... but if they ask him nicely, he might recall the guy mentioning a cafe once or twice on the phone.

And thats exactly the problem. Mindprobe gives you effectivly (RAW as far as I understand it) EVERYTHING. Roll your dice good enough and you can cure his childhood trauma in just one session...


So yes, it is not always the right tool. But we are not talking about sacrificing 23 vergins following a very complicated ritual of several hours, which has to be followed perfectly using those three very rare artifacts as a fokus etc.pp.
We are talking here 15 Karma and snip your finger for delivery.
I do not say mighty things are not allowed to be mighty/usefull. They just should not come at such low prices...
Elfenlied
To be fair, it's 9BP + 40/65BP + 15BP. Being a mage costs a lot of resources, making you a very narrowly focused character. Also, Alter Memory is not permanent, so chances are, you will not be evading the repercussions/negative rep in the long run, unless you geek everyone involved.

That said, Mindprobe is stil preferable to the classic interrogation/torture + Laes/Kill. The latter consumes too much tabletime, and a lot of people can't stomach graphic descriptions. Mindprobe allows for an easy handwave of this tedious activity.
attilatheyeon
Give it a threshold
toturi
QUOTE (Irion @ Nov 23 2012, 04:40 AM) *
I do not say mighty things are not allowed to be mighty/usefull. They just should not come at such low prices...

A part of why these are so effective is that they come at a comparatively low cost.
Halinn
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Nov 22 2012, 10:07 PM) *
To be fair, it's 9BP + 40/65BP + 15BP. Being a mage costs a lot of resources, making you a very narrowly focused character. Also, Alter Memory is not permanent, so chances are, you will not be evading the repercussions/negative rep in the long run, unless you geek everyone involved.

That said, Mindprobe is stil preferable to the classic interrogation/torture + Laes/Kill. The latter consumes too much tabletime, and a lot of people can't stomach graphic descriptions. Mindprobe allows for an easy handwave of this tedious activity.

That's why you do mind probe + laes. It's more certain than interrogation.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Irion @ Nov 22 2012, 01:40 PM) *
And thats exactly the problem. Mindprobe gives you effectivly (RAW as far as I understand it) EVERYTHING. Roll your dice good enough and you can cure his childhood trauma in just one session...


So yes, it is not always the right tool. But we are not talking about sacrificing 23 vergins following a very complicated ritual of several hours, which has to be followed perfectly using those three very rare artifacts as a fokus etc.pp.
We are talking here 15 Karma and snip your finger for delivery.
I do not say mighty things are not allowed to be mighty/usefull. They just should not come at such low prices...


You still have to know what you are looking for. Mind Probe does not give you a Total Memory Dump. You get to ask Questions (Based upon the number of hits you get, these hits determine the depth of the information that you can ask for). Thus, you MUST know the right Questions to ask. smile.gif

QUOTE (Mind Probe)
The subject may probe for one piece of information per Complex Action. Additional uses of Mind Probe against the same target within a number of hours equal to the target’s Willpower are at a –2 dice pool modifier per previous Spellcasting attempt.


QUOTE (Mind Probe Results Table)
1–2 Hits: The subject can read the target’s surface thoughts only.
3–4 Hits: The subject can find out anything the target consciously knows and view the target’s memories.
5+ Hits: The subject can probe the target’s subconscious, gaining information the target may not even be consciously aware of, like psychological quirks, deep fears, or hidden memories.
kzt
QUOTE (attilatheyeon @ Nov 22 2012, 02:50 PM) *
Give it a threshold

It has a threshold. The problem is that you are typically rolling 10 dice vs 3. So the average result (assuming no Foci) is 3 successes vs 1 success. So you can virtually always get surface thoughts and often get anything he knows. If the caster has optimized, with a focus or otherwise, he can usually get anything he knows and can sometimes do better. If the caster uses edge he can pretty much always dig though the subconscious at will.
kzt
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Nov 22 2012, 02:07 PM) *
That said, Mindprobe is stil preferable to the classic interrogation/torture + Laes/Kill. The latter consumes too much tabletime, and a lot of people can't stomach graphic descriptions. Mindprobe allows for an easy handwave of this tedious activity.

Not really. You say "I'm using intimidation to question him, with teamwork from blah, with a +8 situational etc modifier" and roll dice. Now the issue is that the rules don't really explain how to do this kind of thing (obviously it must be that we are running a weird game where trying to force people to tell us stuff comes up...) but that's the case for most of the stuff you can do in SR4. It certainly doesn't provide any actual interrogation rules.

Though I'll agree a set of rules for physically interrogating or torturing people would be kind of yucky.
Socinus
The discussion among the group is leaning in the "double the TN" direction. That keeps the spell useful but far less of an insta-win.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Irion @ Nov 22 2012, 09:40 PM) *
Mindprobe gives you effectivly (RAW as far as I understand it) EVERYTHING. Roll your dice good enough and you can cure his childhood trauma in just one session...
Actually it does not. You can get everything that the character knows, but those things need not be facts, so misinformation and compartmentalization is key for the opposition. Also just because someone "knows" that all trolls are evil and eat children does not make it true. Mind Probe does not have any truth detection ability. Lastly knowing someone's childhood trauma does not cure him from it.

As a GM you can also delay giving out the relevant information. The caster only gets one piece of information per Complex Action. There is no way for the spell to sort the target's mind for relevance. Another problem for the caster is that the target knows it is being probed and is able to act normally the whole time, and backup may only be a free action away. If the PCs already have the target restrained and blocked his communication, there is not much difference between interrogation and mind probe, except that the latter is quicker.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 25 2012, 01:56 AM) *
Actually it does not. You can get everything that the character knows, but those things need not be facts, so misinformation and compartmentalization is key for the opposition. Also just because someone "knows" that all trolls are evil and eat children does not make it true. Mind Probe does not have any truth detection ability. Lastly knowing someone's childhood trauma does not cure him from it.

As a GM you can also delay giving out the relevant information. The caster only gets one piece of information per Complex Action. There is no way for the spell to sort the target's mind for relevance. Another problem for the caster is that the target knows it is being probed and is able to act normally the whole time, and backup may only be a free action away. If the PCs already have the target restrained and blocked his communication, there is not much difference between interrogation and mind probe, except that the latter is quicker.



Except that it is SO much easier to Mind Probe the Troll Heavy than it is to Interrogate/Torture him.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Nov 25 2012, 05:40 PM) *
Except that it is SO much easier to Mind Probe the Troll Heavy than it is to Interrogate/Torture him.
So it is basically juts the old "Magic does everything better" complaint. This is inherent in magic, I have yet to see a game that does not make magical ways of doing things more powerful than mundane ways, without sacrificing the whole "it's magic" feel.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 25 2012, 11:08 AM) *
So it is basically juts the old "Magic does everything better" complaint. This is inherent in magic, I have yet to see a game that does not make magical ways of doing things more powerful than mundane ways, without sacrificing the whole "it's magic" feel.


Naah, I was not complaining, I was making a statement. Physical Torture of a Troll is difficult compared to Mind Probing him (Most Likely). By the Same Token, Physically Torturing the Mage is likely much easier than Mind Probing Him. It is all in who and how you target them. *shrug*

Either way, however, Mind Probe is generally quicker. Besides, not everyone wants to play out a torture scene. *shrug*
Besides, Mind Probe does have its drawbacks (same as Torture).
kzt
Nah, hammers, bolt cutters, power drills and electricity works just fine on trolls. However there are no rules for how this works so you are just playing magical tea party. And it's kind of icky. The two ways that are covered by the rules are using negotiation or intimidation, which don't require playing out a torture scene.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (kzt @ Nov 25 2012, 10:18 PM) *
Nah, hammers, bolt cutters, power drills and electricity works just fine on trolls. However there are no rules for how this works so you are just playing magical tea party. And it's kind of icky. The two ways that are covered by the rules are using negotiation or intimidation, which don't require playing out a torture scene.
Seeing how easy it it to use social skills on all but competent faces, you probably wouldn't even need any torture devices.
kzt
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 25 2012, 02:26 PM) *
Seeing how easy it it to use social skills on all but competent faces, you probably wouldn't even need any torture devices.

It's part of accumulating the modifiers. You get a +2. Though at the point where you can start that the target is at least a -4 and the players are at +4 to +6 (I don't think the troll chained spread-eagled to the wall is very physically imposing, opinions might differ), so they will normally be glad to talk about what is on your mind without the torture part.
Elfenlied
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Nov 25 2012, 05:40 PM) *
Except that it is SO much easier to Mind Probe the Troll Heavy than it is to Interrogate/Torture him.


Unless you saddle the troll with ridiculous bonuses for being a troll, he'll fold like a plastic chair from Ikea under torture/interrogation. Trolls have standard willpower, and most of them tend to be on the low side of social skills, so their defense pool will be low.
Manunancy
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 25 2012, 09:56 AM) *
Actually it does not. You can get everything that the character knows, but those things need not be facts, so misinformation and compartmentalization is key for the opposition. Also just because someone "knows" that all trolls are evil and eat children does not make it true. Mind Probe does not have any truth detection ability. Lastly knowing someone's childhood trauma does not cure him from it.


I disagrre partially - Mind probe can tell you what the subject believes to be truth or lies, and so can work as a truth detector. But if the subject is wrong in his belied, the spell won't spot that. A more accurate wording would be that mind porbe can detect the truth from the probed's point of view rather than a factual truth.
Irion
@Elfenlied
The point is, that it is all in the GMs ballpark. He can lie or not. He might know it but not realize it etc. etc.

Mindprobe puts it all in the players ballpark.
Magic 5, Spellcasting 6, Force 4 spirit to help and the force 4 powerfocus you got darn cheap in chargen.
Adding up to 19 dice. Translating in 5 hits easy. True, even a 4 willpower guy can get 3 hits... But more than 2 is highly unlikely.
TeaTime
During play, I've been on both the caster and GM of this spell. It's a powerful spell- and best used with caution.
Here are a couple of drifts I've used (or had waiting in the wings) when running the game. The goal was to keep the spell useful, but also with a potential cost- saved for special occasions, not just the poor security guard that happens to be on duty. I recommend that these be run as a slow ramp up if the spell gets abused.
And obviously, this is meant for a mature group and is entirely non-canon. So YMMV.

- The target is aware that it is being done to them. Not just the spell, but also what being reviewed. It can be a pretty horrific experience as the mental edifice of an identity constructed over a lifetime comes crashing down (course, it is usually followed up with an Alter Memory, so that is a pretty much a non-issue, right?)

- At high successes, a scary amount of information that is downloaded- imagine everything ever experienced, forgotten, made-up, everything. It can be the equivalent of drinking from a mental firehose.

- And it isn't quite as easy as Google searching a mind- you'll see, and feel, a great deal on the way to the passcode. First love. Death of a parent. And it stays with you.

- Minds aren't really made to easily handle these datadumps. Unfortunately, the spell has a tendency to cause a bleed over- it is painfully easy for one's identity can get very slightly jumbled with the target's, and rarely in a good way. But it's an easy way to pick up a colorful sexual dysfunction.

-Truly powerful people (archnemesis grade NPCs) with high WIL and LOG (and burning/spending some EDGE) can subconsciously misdirect. Can't lie, but it can get cloudy and more easily misinterpreted as the target's mind instinctively fights back. Extreme successes could even mean that the spell becomes a two way street...

-Word on the street is that the spell itself is vaguely corrupted. The spell is just too advanced for the current understanding of magic, it shouldn't work but it does, or it is powerful for its own good- and there is a price to paid for it.

You want safe, stick with Influence, Truth or Read Surface Thought spells.
You need the answers, regardless of cost, then it is time to bust out Mind Probe.
Chimera
Mind probe is potentially quite powerful, but I think it can be open to interpretation as to what the Answer to the initial Question is. For example, say the magician uses Mind Probe on a security guard to find out what the combination is to a safe. In the mind of the guard, that could simply be represented as a series of numbers and it wouldn't be a memory that is necessarily buried very deep (he probably accesses the safe daily).

Lets say the magician probes further, and wants to know why the guard hesitated to fire on the hacker when he had a chance. In a deep, suppressed memory, the magician sees his Answer as a Purple Rhinoceros riding a motorcycle and yelling a young version of the security guard, which is obviously confusing to the magician.

This is where the PC has to put his Logic score to work and do some reasoning, on his own and perhaps with additional uses of mind probe (albeit at a penalty). The real reason was: as a young man the security guard saw an Ancient Go-ganger riding a motorbike fashioned to have a rhino head on the front of it gun down his best friend in cold blood. The go-ganger's purple hair matched the color of the hair of the team's hacker and triggered the hapless guard's fear response and he froze.

The point I'm making is that you can treat thoughts and memories as a picture album rather than a newspaper; you get the images and the fact that it has something to do with the Question asked through mind probe but you may not necessarily receive the full context.
ChromeZephyr
QUOTE (TeaTime @ Nov 26 2012, 11:59 AM) *
During play, I've been on both the caster and GM of this spell. It's a powerful spell- and best used with caution.
Here are a couple of drifts I've used (or had waiting in the wings) when running the game. The goal was to keep the spell useful, but also with a potential cost- saved for special occasions, not just the poor security guard that happens to be on duty. I recommend that these be run as a slow ramp up if the spell gets abused.
And obviously, this is meant for a mature group and is entirely non-canon. So YMMV.

- The target is aware that it is being done to them. Not just the spell, but also what being reviewed. It can be a pretty horrific experience as the mental edifice of an identity constructed over a lifetime comes crashing down (course, it is usually followed up with an Alter Memory, so that is a pretty much a non-issue, right?)

- At high successes, a scary amount of information that is downloaded- imagine everything ever experienced, forgotten, made-up, everything. It can be the equivalent of drinking from a mental firehose.

- And it isn't quite as easy as Google searching a mind- you'll see, and feel, a great deal on the way to the passcode. First love. Death of a parent. And it stays with you.

- Minds aren't really made to easily handle these datadumps. Unfortunately, the spell has a tendency to cause a bleed over- it is painfully easy for one's identity can get very slightly jumbled with the target's, and rarely in a good way. But it's an easy way to pick up a colorful sexual dysfunction.

-Truly powerful people (archnemesis grade NPCs) with high WIL and LOG (and burning/spending some EDGE) can subconsciously misdirect. Can't lie, but it can get cloudy and more easily misinterpreted as the target's mind instinctively fights back. Extreme successes could even mean that the spell becomes a two way street...

-Word on the street is that the spell itself is vaguely corrupted. The spell is just too advanced for the current understanding of magic, it shouldn't work but it does, or it is powerful for its own good- and there is a price to paid for it.

You want safe, stick with Influence, Truth or Read Surface Thought spells.
You need the answers, regardless of cost, then it is time to bust out Mind Probe.


So, the Mind Probe is something like a one-way Soulgaze from the Dresden Files, possibly becoming a true Soulgaze with a high level enemy? Interesting, I do like that. And I like the "there is a price to be paid" angle, as well. Maybe link it in the long play to the Horrors...hmmmm. That'd be an interesting campaign hook.
FuelDrop
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Nov 26 2012, 12:40 AM) *
Except that it is SO much easier to Mind Probe the Troll Heavy than it is to Interrogate/Torture him.

but it's nowhere near as fun...
*pulls out razor* Wanna know how I got these scars?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Nov 30 2012, 08:41 PM) *
but it's nowhere near as fun...
*pulls out razor* Wanna know how I got these scars?


Well, there is that, of course. smile.gif
Bearclaw
Is there any reason why mindprobe wouldn't work on an unconscious target? No surface thoughts of course, but as long as you get to the "everything the target knows" level?
My group has been using a combination of tasers and mindprobe.


<edit>And, if mindprobing an unconscious target, would they remember?
Chimera
Tasers and Mindprobes. That seems to be a common tactic; that's been used in my group on NPCs. PC's too... indifferent.gif
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (Midas @ Nov 22 2012, 12:00 PM) *
Combination use of Mind Probe, Influence and/or Alter Memory can be pretty effective methods to gain information and assist infiltration, but the GM should try to throw the occasional spanner in the works so such tactics don't become the way the PCs solve everything. Also, bear in mind that Corp Sec has had years to develop countermeasures to such magical tactics, so may prep their employees to report to their Psych officer if they have experienced cases of memory loss, laes poisoning, strange compulsions to do things etc.


Easiest thing to do is to have the mook/victim contain the wrong information. Disinformation is the best form of countermeasure as the person is less likely to pursue other sources for confirmation. Besides anybody using mind-probe should still do their legwork if they are smart, if they don't they deserve to buy agricultural real estate.
DnDer
QUOTE (Makki @ Nov 22 2012, 01:43 AM) *
the reputation for these spells is as bad as you can think of. The term mind rape is very common, although unpopular with some users here. As we know from real life, in the victims point of view, rape can be worse than killing.
I have read a shadowrun, where the mind spell using magician's reputation was so aweful among the shadows, that the team never blinked an eye or thought about rescuing him, when in trouble. They were glad he was gone. It took a lot of composure and professionalism to not geek him themselves.
Reading someone's mind is the last breach of privacy. Who'd want that?


This Guy.
Irion
@Warlordtheft
While true, the problem is the fact that those methodes normally do not leave any prove.
What does that mean? Well, you can do it multible times.
And unless your employees don't value the self decipline of a shaolin monk, they are rather easy prey.
It is not so much the "a hot girl talked to me, so I act completly stupid"-trope. (Which you see in lots of movies...)
It is more "Yeah, I did not suspect the guys I just met to drug and magic-rape me".

So the either need a very high perception or they need to be paranoid over both ears.
DnDer
I've not seen it addressed in the topic thus far, and I don't have my book on hand, so forgive me if this is covered ground... But what about just restricting the spell?

If the GM is setting limits on what equipment can be bought at chargen, he should also be looking at spells, right? Might be a bad memory, but I always remember Mind Probe being just plain illegal to own/use/know. It's like trying to pick up Black Ice for personal use -- you usually just can't. And God help you if anyone ever finds it in your library.

It's a solution that won't restrict the spell's power, but if you can restrict access to it... It seems like a similar fix?
ChromeZephyr
It'd be GM fiat at that point, as the spell formulae in the Street Gear section all have Availability less than 12, and the only ones marked F are Combat spells (which most spellcasters take anyways, natch). All the others are listed as "R", which means have a fake magic-user's license as part of your Fake ID(s) for a few hundred extra nuyen.
Dakka Dakka
Don't forget that proving that someone is capable of casting a certain spell is very difficult, especially if you have laws against self-incrimination.

Spell Formulae are not like the spells in a DnD wizard's spellbook. They are more like training manuals. Once you learned the spell there is no need for the formula anymore. Anyone leaving forbidden ones around deserves to be punished.
Lionhearted
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Dec 7 2012, 09:55 PM) *
Anyone leaving forbidden ones around deserves to be punished.

Takes no time to download from the matrix.
Where the info's free and the orks are pretty?
I suck at impromptu lyrics
Bearclaw
Is there a less powerful version of mind-probe?
My group was talking about developing one:
Snoop. Same drain code, only reads surface thought, but is no more noticeable than any other spell. Is it over-powered?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Dec 7 2012, 02:32 PM) *
Is there a less powerful version of mind-probe?
My group was talking about developing one:
Snoop. Same drain code, only reads surface thought, but is no more noticeable than any other spell. Is it over-powered?


I think it is called "Detect Surface Thoughts" but I am not sure. I will look for it.

EDIT: Lets see
Area Thought Recognition
Thought Recognition

These are the two you are looking for. smile.gif
Bearclaw
Not quite, but getting there. Rather than scan for a specific thing, I'd like to be able to hear whatever is in the forefront of their mind.
Like the Matt Parkman character in Heroes.
A limited form of mind probe with a bonus.
The limitation would be "surface thoughts only". The bonus is that it's covert.

Thought recognition has the limitation "only tells you if they're thinking about what you check for". The bonuses are that it's covert and the drain code is lower.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Dec 7 2012, 05:36 PM) *
Not quite, but getting there. Rather than scan for a specific thing, I'd like to be able to hear whatever is in the forefront of their mind.
Like the Matt Parkman character in Heroes.
A limited form of mind probe with a bonus.
The limitation would be "surface thoughts only". The bonus is that it's covert.

Thought recognition has the limitation "only tells you if they're thinking about what you check for". The bonuses are that it's covert and the drain code is lower.


So, raise the Drain Code by 1, and then make it covert with Surface Thoughts only. Easy Peasy and Done. smile.gif
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