Counterspell Critter Powers? Options

[Falconer]

Innate spell allows counterspelling. But that's the only one.

I've played with the banishing used against critter powers and it works fairly well. The problem being that all the best critter powers use two attributes vs one. The poor ones use two vs two and aren't used as often. So adding banishing gives a good reason to take the conjuring skill group as opposed to only taking summoning and binding and ignoring banishing.


The problem with banishing is you don't know the drain... the drain is often 6-10 (or worse). And generally your best bet is to simply stunbolt or SnS the damn thing... force 7 spirit you need 12 stun damage to knock it out. Easily done (even if it is an ally... hehe especially if it is an ally! *evil laugh*). Also the problem is that summoning and binding is generally done out of combat with a lot of time to heal the drain. However, banishing is normally done in combat... and is equivalent (or more) damage than binding even... inflicted in a short time with no margin to heal after the fact.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Problem is that Spirits (and even some Critters, IIRC) are capable of Counterspelling that Incomming Spell, where they would be incapable of countering that Banishing Attempt. Which is a Plus for Banishing over Spell delivery.

[Irion]

Banishing is an option against those new spirits with counterspelling. Espacially if you fight several.
One bound force 6 spirit and one unbound force 8 spirit are nearly impossible to stunbolt for the avarage mage. (Having 6(or8)+8+2=16-18 dice to counterspell you.)
Just bannish the unbound spirit and then stunbolt the other one.

But thats again the problem with spirits above force 6... I think everybody knows that problem by now...

[Neraph]

Sure, if you don't understand how the game works and overcast at F12 or something equally foolish. However it's pretty hard to do this in one shot at F5 and you can calibrate the subsequent stunbolts.

Meaning at lower forces, which become easier and easier to resist. The fastest way to drop someone is with a Force 7 or so Stunbolt with roughly 5 successes. Assuming one to three successes on the target's part you'll drop them, dropping the average person unconscious unless they roll three or more successes on the Opposed Test, resulting in zero to two points of Physical Damage Overflow.

Problem is that Spirits (and even some Critters, IIRC) are capable of Counterspelling that Incomming Spell, where they would be incapable of countering that Banishing Attempt. Which is a Plus for Banishing over Spell delivery.

Only if it's a Free Spirit or has the Magical Guard power, so the vast majority of spirits cannot, in fact, Counterspell.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Only if it's a Free Spirit or has the Magical Guard power, so the vast majority of spirits cannot, in fact, Counterspell.

Half of the Canon Spirits can Counterspell by default (so that is not insignificant, 50% is far from the Vast Majority that you espouse). The other half generally can have access to the ability with optional powers, if you fly that way (I know that most do). *shrug*

[almost normal]

That of course is working with the faulty assumption that half of all free spirits have had stats made up for them.

[Neraph]

Half of the Canon Spirits can Counterspell by default (so that is not insignificant, 50% is far from the Vast Majority that you espouse). The other half generally can have access to the ability with optional powers, if you fly that way (I know that most do). *shrug*

SR4A:
Watcher - No
Air - No
Beast - No
Earth - No
Fire - No
Man - No
Water - No

Street Magic:
Guardian - Yes
Guidance - Yes
Plant - Yes
Task - No

Caretaker - No
Nymph - No
Scout - No
Soldier - Yes
Worker - No
Queen - Yes

Shedim - No
Master Shedim - Yes

Final countdown: 13 can't, while 6 can. That's actually a 66/33 split against your position. Toxic spirits don't count because they're normal spirits that have different forms and slightly different Powers (and of the six listed in Street Magic, five don't and only one does), and the same applies to Blood spirits. Shadow spirits have the Magical Guard Power, but not the Counterspelling Skill, so that one is undecided.

Only by factoring in Free and Wild spirits can you hope to get to a 50% number. But let's see.

Running Wild:
Cicak - No
Crone - No
Domovol - No
Frost - No
Kappa - No
Knocker - No
Kokopelli - No
Leprechaun - No
Hounds - No
Steeds - No
Huntsman - Yes
Apparitions - No
Phantoms - No
Specters - No
Grim Reapers - No
Bean Shidhe - No
Brocken Bow - No
Nomad - No
Snatcher - No
Tungak - No
Imps - Yes
Arboreals - No (and wtf Close Combat Group? They don't even have hands.)
Gan - No
Man-of-the-Woods - Yes
Silap Inua - No
Storm Wraith - No
Tanglewebs - No

Adding in Running Wild we get 37 No and 9 Yes, dropping the percentage down to a 80/20 split against your position.

To make matters worse, just being a Free Spirit doesn't mean they get Counterspelling automatically - only that they are able to learn it.

tl/dr: You are factually inaccurate unless you greatly inflate the number of Free Spirits that exist and actually have Counterspelling.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

SR4A:
Watcher - No
Air - No
Beast - No
Earth - No
Fire - No
Man - No
Water - No

Street Magic:
Guardian - Yes
Guidance - Yes
Plant - Yes
Task - No

Caretaker - No
Nymph - No
Scout - No
Soldier - Yes
Worker - No
Queen - Yes

Shedim - No
Master Shedim - Yes

Final countdown: 13 can't, while 6 can. That's actually a 66/33 split against your position. Toxic spirits don't count because they're normal spirits that have different forms and slightly different Powers (and of the six listed in Street Magic, five don't and only one does), and the same applies to Blood spirits. Shadow spirits have the Magical Guard Power, but not the Counterspelling Skill, so that one is undecided.

Only by factoring in Free and Wild spirits can you hope to get to a 50% number. But let's see.

Running Wild:
Cicak - No
Crone - No
Domovol - No
Frost - No
Kappa - No
Knocker - No
Kokopelli - No
Leprechaun - No
Hounds - No
Steeds - No
Huntsman - Yes
Apparitions - No
Phantoms - No
Specters - No
Grim Reapers - No
Bean Shidhe - No
Brocken Bow - No
Nomad - No
Snatcher - No
Tungak - No
Imps - Yes
Arboreals - No (and wtf Close Combat Group? They don't even have hands.)
Gan - No
Man-of-the-Woods - Yes
Silap Inua - No
Storm Wraith - No
Tanglewebs - No

Adding in Running Wild we get 37 No and 9 Yes, dropping the percentage down to a 80/20 split against your position.

To make matters worse, just being a Free Spirit doesn't mean they get Counterspelling automatically - only that they are able to learn it.

tl/dr: You are factually inaccurate unless you greatly inflate the number of Free Spirits that exist and actually have Counterspelling.

Or give it to them as an Optional Power (which is common, from what I have heard), as I indicated. Damn, forgot that one didn't you? Oh well, we all make mistakes. *shrug*

In addition to their standard Powers, each spirit also has one Optional Power for every 3 full points of Force.

The game mechanics given for the powers below are not intended as hard and fast rules, but as guidelines for the gamemaster. Players should never be absolutely certain of the capabilities of a critter, particularly Awakened ones.

Since there is no rule about adding additional Options to the Critters, and in fact is even encouraged, well....
So you see, I am not even breaking any rules here. ALL Spirits can have Magical Guard. Period. It is pretty cut and dried.

[Neraph]

Or give it to them as an Optional Power (which is common, from what I have heard), as I indicated. Damn, forgot that one didn't you? Oh well, we all make mistakes. *shrug*

Actually I didn't forget that one. I figured, after looking at the real numbers, that you'd have to rely on GM Fiat to bail you out. Also, there's an interesting tidbit about Magical Guard - it does not give the spirit the Counterspelling skill, only the ability to use that skill. "A critter with the Magical Guard power can use the Counterspelling skill and provide spell defense and dispel spells the same as a magician can." It does not state that the critter gains the Counterspelling skill at Force/Magic rating or anything else - it simply states that that Power allows the use of the skill, but you must still have that skill.

Here are two examples of this concept at work: the Street Magic Shadow Spirit, which has Magical Guard but no Counterspelling skill (a direct example), and the Air Spirit, which has the Exotic Ranged Weapon skill but not the Energy Attack Power by default (an example through similarity - the Energy Attack Power allows the use of the Exotic Ranged Weapon skill, but does not grant it. The spirit has a useless skill unless the spirit has the requisite Power).

Since there is no rule about adding additional Options to the Critters, and in fact is even encouraged, well....
So you see, I am not even breaking any rules here. ALL Spirits can have Magical Guard. Period. It is pretty cut and dried.

GM Fiat is no excuse for the listed rules. Rule 0 is the fall-back for people who do not have a claim by the rules as presented by example in the texts.