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IridiosDZ
By my reading, paranormal critter powers are not spells. So is there anything in the rules allowing (or disallowing) counterspelling to be used against paranormal powers? Particularly influence?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (IridiosDZ @ Nov 24 2012, 10:46 AM) *
By my reading, paranormal critter powers are not spells. So is there anything in the rules allowing (or disallowing) counterspelling to be used against paranormal powers? Particularly influence?


There is no Canon way to counterspell Critter Powers, to my Knowledge. A common Houserule is to allow the Banishing Skill that ability.
Neraph
I wouldn't say common, but it is a houserule that can be found on the boards. Another is to allow Counterspelling for Critter Powers.

The most often used one, however, is to use the rules as written.
Alpha Blue
Mana barrier should help a bit. Also you can still dispell them right?
Mantis
No you can't dispel them. They aren't spells.
kzt
And in fact somewhere they explicitly said you can't counterspell them. You can counterspell regular spells cost by critters, but their innate powers. Why this is the case is never explained.
pbangarth
There are lots of ways, magical and otherwise, to interfere with critter powers, but Counterspelling isn't one of them.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Neraph @ Nov 24 2012, 12:20 PM) *
I wouldn't say common, but it is a houserule that can be found on the boards. Another is to allow Counterspelling for Critter Powers.

The most often used one, however, is to use the rules as written.


I was actually commenting upon the Houserule commonality (Banishing as more common of a Houserule than using Counterspelling (since critter powers are specifically called out as not counterspellable)), not that the most common effect was to play as written (which I am sure it is). smile.gif
But yes, I get your point. smile.gif
Neraph
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Nov 25 2012, 11:30 AM) *
I was actually commenting upon the Houserule commonality (Banishing as more common of a Houserule than using Counterspelling (since critter powers are specifically called out as not counterspellable)), not that the most common effect was to play as written (which I am sure it is). smile.gif
But yes, I get your point. smile.gif

Moot point, all is well.
The Dread Polack
I've noticed that in most cases with critter powers, you resist with 2 traits- often an attribute + attribute or attribute + skill. With Spells, it is normally either Body or Willpower alone, plus Counterspell if you have it. This means that casters are a bit more effective against mundanes, and it's why it's a good idea to have a caster on your team to provide spell defense. With critter powers, on the other hand, it seems we're all equally susceptible, depending on the particular power.

This came up in a recent game of ours, and nobody could remember if Counterspelling applied or not, and the GM mercifully decided to allow it, not wanting to look it up. It seems to me that having high attributes is the best defense.

By the way, what are some of the easier ways to defend against critter powers?
Halinn
QUOTE (The Dread Polack @ Nov 26 2012, 05:24 PM) *
By the way, what are some of the easier ways to defend against critter powers?

Kill the critters before they can use their powers against you.
kzt
QUOTE (The Dread Polack @ Nov 26 2012, 09:24 AM) *
By the way, what are some of the easier ways to defend against critter powers?

Don't be where the critter is.
Neraph
Block LoS.
Bearclaw
I've found Banishing to be a fairly useless power, so letting it be used as "counterspelling" for spirit powers makes it more worth taking.
Neraph
That's why people change it that way. Keeping in the spirit of the game, however, I would only allow it to be used against critter Powers used by spirits. Banishing a hellhound doesn't make much sense to me.
The Dread Polack
Yeah, I understand the point of that house rule, but I don't think I'd allow it. I found being able to banish to be very useful for my shaman in my previous campaign. I guess it will if your GM uses spirits against you enough.
Bearclaw
If you are way more powerful than the spirit, banishing will let you take control of it, but mostly it just lets a spirit beat on you, rather than just hitting it with a stunbolt and taking it out.
The Dread Polack
Banshing isn't always the best way to deal with a spirit. I found the best time was when you are able to determine the spirit's force in relation to the summoner's ability, which isn't always easy. If you think they summoner has summoned a spirit at the upper end of his ability, then it's likely he has few services from it. If the spirit is fairly powerful relative to you, then it'll be a lot of drain, but possibly worth it if you can take it out in one go, rather than several rounds of combat (especially if you're not a combat mage). Low-force spirits aren't a really big deal to take out with mundane weaponry, but a force 5+ spirit can be a lot to deal with for most starting SR parties. If you keep up your skills, foci, metamagic, etc, you can give spirits the brush-off a lot more easily than you can with a rocket launcher, and with a lot less collateral damage. I haven't run into a lot of mages that bother with this, though.
Bearclaw
The problem is with the drain. 2 times the number of hits the spirit got on it's roll. On average, an unbound force 6 spirit gets 2 hits, so you take 4 drain, bound more like 4 hits, so a drain value of 8. If you cast stunbolt at a force of 6, the drain is 2.
The Dread Polack
That is the problem. If you think you can banish a force 6 spirit in one shot, it can be faster than wearing it down in combat and worth the drain, but I'd agree that it's the exception, rather than the rule. Plus, you normally have no way of knowing. If I knew a spirit was bound, then I wouldn't even try.

On the other hand, my PC got possessed last night, and would have rather had the spirit banished than have his body riddled with bullets and fire bolts smile.gif (as it turns out, the mage couldn't score enough hits on the banishing roll and through an interesting series of events, 3 of us, all possessed, were driven away from the site far enough that the spirits left our bodies.)

I think it's probably fair to lessen the drain of banishing to make it more appealing.
Dreadlord
QUOTE (The Dread Polack @ Nov 26 2012, 11:24 AM) *
By the way, what are some of the easier ways to defend against critter powers?


Magical Guard Power?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Dreadlord @ Nov 27 2012, 04:03 PM) *
Magical Guard Power?


Nope... Magical Guard allows you to use Counterspell, and that is it. smile.gif
Jaid
QUOTE (The Dread Polack @ Nov 27 2012, 01:58 PM) *
That is the problem. If you think you can banish a force 6 spirit in one shot, it can be faster than wearing it down in combat and worth the drain, but I'd agree that it's the exception, rather than the rule. Plus, you normally have no way of knowing. If I knew a spirit was bound, then I wouldn't even try.

On the other hand, my PC got possessed last night, and would have rather had the spirit banished than have his body riddled with bullets and fire bolts smile.gif (as it turns out, the mage couldn't score enough hits on the banishing roll and through an interesting series of events, 3 of us, all possessed, were driven away from the site far enough that the spirits left our bodies.)

I think it's probably fair to lessen the drain of banishing to make it more appealing.


hence, stunbolt. or, if you're feeling really extravagant, you can get a stunbolt restricted to spirits. whether or not that would deal stun damage to the person is inside the spirit is certainly questionable, but it should definitely take out the spirit while leaving you with (comparatively) easily-healed stun damage.
Neraph
QUOTE (Jaid @ Dec 1 2012, 03:00 PM) *
hence, stunbolt. or, if you're feeling really extravagant, you can get a stunbolt restricted to spirits. whether or not that would deal stun damage to the person is inside the spirit is certainly questionable, but it should definitely take out the spirit while leaving you with (comparatively) easily-healed stun damage.

... Unless overflow happens.
kzt
QUOTE (Neraph @ Dec 1 2012, 08:28 PM) *
... Unless overflow happens.

Sure, if you don't understand how the game works and overcast at F12 or something equally foolish. However it's pretty hard to do this in one shot at F5 and you can calibrate the subsequent stunbolts.
Falconer
Innate spell allows counterspelling. But that's the only one.

I've played with the banishing used against critter powers and it works fairly well. The problem being that all the best critter powers use two attributes vs one. The poor ones use two vs two and aren't used as often. So adding banishing gives a good reason to take the conjuring skill group as opposed to only taking summoning and binding and ignoring banishing.


The problem with banishing is you don't know the drain... the drain is often 6-10 (or worse). And generally your best bet is to simply stunbolt or SnS the damn thing... force 7 spirit you need 12 stun damage to knock it out. Easily done (even if it is an ally... hehe especially if it is an ally! *evil laugh*). Also the problem is that summoning and binding is generally done out of combat with a lot of time to heal the drain. However, banishing is normally done in combat... and is equivalent (or more) damage than binding even... inflicted in a short time with no margin to heal after the fact.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Problem is that Spirits (and even some Critters, IIRC) are capable of Counterspelling that Incomming Spell, where they would be incapable of countering that Banishing Attempt. Which is a Plus for Banishing over Spell delivery.
Irion
Banishing is an option against those new spirits with counterspelling. Espacially if you fight several.
One bound force 6 spirit and one unbound force 8 spirit are nearly impossible to stunbolt for the avarage mage. (Having 6(or8)+8+2=16-18 dice to counterspell you.)
Just bannish the unbound spirit and then stunbolt the other one.

But thats again the problem with spirits above force 6... I think everybody knows that problem by now...
Neraph
QUOTE (kzt @ Dec 1 2012, 10:11 PM) *
Sure, if you don't understand how the game works and overcast at F12 or something equally foolish. However it's pretty hard to do this in one shot at F5 and you can calibrate the subsequent stunbolts.

Meaning at lower forces, which become easier and easier to resist. The fastest way to drop someone is with a Force 7 or so Stunbolt with roughly 5 successes. Assuming one to three successes on the target's part you'll drop them, dropping the average person unconscious unless they roll three or more successes on the Opposed Test, resulting in zero to two points of Physical Damage Overflow.

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Dec 2 2012, 10:15 AM) *
Problem is that Spirits (and even some Critters, IIRC) are capable of Counterspelling that Incomming Spell, where they would be incapable of countering that Banishing Attempt. Which is a Plus for Banishing over Spell delivery.

Only if it's a Free Spirit or has the Magical Guard power, so the vast majority of spirits cannot, in fact, Counterspell.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Neraph @ Dec 2 2012, 11:36 AM) *
Only if it's a Free Spirit or has the Magical Guard power, so the vast majority of spirits cannot, in fact, Counterspell.


Half of the Canon Spirits can Counterspell by default (so that is not insignificant, 50% is far from the Vast Majority that you espouse). The other half generally can have access to the ability with optional powers, if you fly that way (I know that most do). *shrug*
almost normal
That of course is working with the faulty assumption that half of all free spirits have had stats made up for them.
Neraph
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Dec 2 2012, 12:46 PM) *
Half of the Canon Spirits can Counterspell by default (so that is not insignificant, 50% is far from the Vast Majority that you espouse). The other half generally can have access to the ability with optional powers, if you fly that way (I know that most do). *shrug*

SR4A:
Watcher - No
Air - No
Beast - No
Earth - No
Fire - No
Man - No
Water - No

Street Magic:
Guardian - Yes
Guidance - Yes
Plant - Yes
Task - No

Caretaker - No
Nymph - No
Scout - No
Soldier - Yes
Worker - No
Queen - Yes

Shedim - No
Master Shedim - Yes

Final countdown: 13 can't, while 6 can. That's actually a 66/33 split against your position. Toxic spirits don't count because they're normal spirits that have different forms and slightly different Powers (and of the six listed in Street Magic, five don't and only one does), and the same applies to Blood spirits. Shadow spirits have the Magical Guard Power, but not the Counterspelling Skill, so that one is undecided.

Only by factoring in Free and Wild spirits can you hope to get to a 50% number. But let's see.

Running Wild:
Cicak - No
Crone - No
Domovol - No
Frost - No
Kappa - No
Knocker - No
Kokopelli - No
Leprechaun - No
Hounds - No
Steeds - No
Huntsman - Yes
Apparitions - No
Phantoms - No
Specters - No
Grim Reapers - No
Bean Shidhe - No
Brocken Bow - No
Nomad - No
Snatcher - No
Tungak - No
Imps - Yes
Arboreals - No (and wtf Close Combat Group? They don't even have hands.)
Gan - No
Man-of-the-Woods - Yes
Silap Inua - No
Storm Wraith - No
Tanglewebs - No

Adding in Running Wild we get 37 No and 9 Yes, dropping the percentage down to a 80/20 split against your position.

To make matters worse, just being a Free Spirit doesn't mean they get Counterspelling automatically - only that they are able to learn it.

tl/dr: You are factually inaccurate unless you greatly inflate the number of Free Spirits that exist and actually have Counterspelling.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE
QUOTE (Neraph @ Dec 2 2012, 01:16 PM) *
SR4A:
Watcher - No
Air - No
Beast - No
Earth - No
Fire - No
Man - No
Water - No

Street Magic:
Guardian - Yes
Guidance - Yes
Plant - Yes
Task - No

Caretaker - No
Nymph - No
Scout - No
Soldier - Yes
Worker - No
Queen - Yes

Shedim - No
Master Shedim - Yes

Final countdown: 13 can't, while 6 can. That's actually a 66/33 split against your position. Toxic spirits don't count because they're normal spirits that have different forms and slightly different Powers (and of the six listed in Street Magic, five don't and only one does), and the same applies to Blood spirits. Shadow spirits have the Magical Guard Power, but not the Counterspelling Skill, so that one is undecided.

Only by factoring in Free and Wild spirits can you hope to get to a 50% number. But let's see.

Running Wild:
Cicak - No
Crone - No
Domovol - No
Frost - No
Kappa - No
Knocker - No
Kokopelli - No
Leprechaun - No
Hounds - No
Steeds - No
Huntsman - Yes
Apparitions - No
Phantoms - No
Specters - No
Grim Reapers - No
Bean Shidhe - No
Brocken Bow - No
Nomad - No
Snatcher - No
Tungak - No
Imps - Yes
Arboreals - No (and wtf Close Combat Group? They don't even have hands.)
Gan - No
Man-of-the-Woods - Yes
Silap Inua - No
Storm Wraith - No
Tanglewebs - No

Adding in Running Wild we get 37 No and 9 Yes, dropping the percentage down to a 80/20 split against your position.

To make matters worse, just being a Free Spirit doesn't mean they get Counterspelling automatically - only that they are able to learn it.

tl/dr: You are factually inaccurate unless you greatly inflate the number of Free Spirits that exist and actually have Counterspelling.


Or give it to them as an Optional Power (which is common, from what I have heard), as I indicated. Damn, forgot that one didn't you? Oh well, we all make mistakes. *shrug*

QUOTE (SR4A, Spirits)
In addition to their standard Powers, each spirit also has one Optional Power for every 3 full points of Force.


QUOTE (SR4A, Powers, Page 292)
The game mechanics given for the powers below are not intended as hard and fast rules, but as guidelines for the gamemaster. Players should never be absolutely certain of the capabilities of a critter, particularly Awakened ones.


Since there is no rule about adding additional Options to the Critters, and in fact is even encouraged, well....
So you see, I am not even breaking any rules here. ALL Spirits can have Magical Guard. Period. It is pretty cut and dried.
Neraph
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Dec 2 2012, 03:23 PM) *
Or give it to them as an Optional Power (which is common, from what I have heard), as I indicated. Damn, forgot that one didn't you? Oh well, we all make mistakes. *shrug*

Actually I didn't forget that one. I figured, after looking at the real numbers, that you'd have to rely on GM Fiat to bail you out. Also, there's an interesting tidbit about Magical Guard - it does not give the spirit the Counterspelling skill, only the ability to use that skill. "A critter with the Magical Guard power can use the Counterspelling skill and provide spell defense and dispel spells the same as a magician can." It does not state that the critter gains the Counterspelling skill at Force/Magic rating or anything else - it simply states that that Power allows the use of the skill, but you must still have that skill.

Here are two examples of this concept at work: the Street Magic Shadow Spirit, which has Magical Guard but no Counterspelling skill (a direct example), and the Air Spirit, which has the Exotic Ranged Weapon skill but not the Energy Attack Power by default (an example through similarity - the Energy Attack Power allows the use of the Exotic Ranged Weapon skill, but does not grant it. The spirit has a useless skill unless the spirit has the requisite Power).

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Dec 2 2012, 03:23 PM) *
Since there is no rule about adding additional Options to the Critters, and in fact is even encouraged, well....
So you see, I am not even breaking any rules here. ALL Spirits can have Magical Guard. Period. It is pretty cut and dried.

GM Fiat is no excuse for the listed rules. Rule 0 is the fall-back for people who do not have a claim by the rules as presented by example in the texts.
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