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Arethusa
post Apr 21 2004, 08:02 AM
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Ok, so it's been discussed before, but I've yet to see anything that sufficiently explains how this works. So, that said, how can a highly skilled mundane infiltrator— one skilled enough to basically break into most high security facilities and bypass most countermeasures with an extreme level of professionalism— expect to bypass astral security? Yes, there are rules that govern this on the abstracted level of a building with a searching mage, and, yes, stealth rolls apply to the astral, but how does any of this make sense? How can a mundane infiltrator ever expect to react and adapt to an intrusion countermeasure he can never see?

And, before you try, let me list the explanations that have been given so far that do not really help the situation
  • Background Count: While it'd be great if everywhere in SR had a standard background count of +1 or +2, this is simply not so. Yes, walking through downtown Seattle on an afternoon would probably be +2. Yes, even at during the late evening, when people are getting sparse, +1. But half an hour after those people are gone, we're down to 0. And 0 means very visible. Besides, I'm not sure I buy it that everywhere you ever go in SR has a background count of at least 1 or 2.
  • Bacteria: Not happening. Either mages are quite a bit more blind than I've ever seen mentioned, or this is just silly and they only see a light amount of background color.
  • Hiding with other living things: Great, if I'm hiding in a forest, on a lawn, or in a crowd of people. Useless if I'm slinking through a corporate facility.
  • Hiding behind physical things: Sounds simple, right? Only, I'm infiltrating, and how can I know when is safe to move and when I should hide? I can't spend all my time huddled under my Projecting Mage Proof Desk.
  • Small awakened population: Assuming I can find out if magical security is present— which is unlikely, even with the best legwork— best I can hope for as a mundane is to pack my bags and go home. If I can't find out, like all unexpected security measures, I just need to be cautious, prepared, and adaptable, right? No. I can't be any of these things since I can never see it coming, provided it's there, and since a profession will assume it is in lieu of good intelligence, this just sucks. I might as well not bother with avoiding thermal spectrum detection since a lot of people can't see there, either.
  • Stealth!: Great, the skill works mechanically, but dropping the numbers, it makes no sense.
  • Earth aura: Either this aura is a lot stronger than I think or it's not enough, given that those percieving and projecting have no trouble seeing anything on the astral plane unless the target is specifically hiding (see above).

Ok, so the rules set a precedent. But how does it work in the first place?

And, for that matter, how can it be taken down from its current level of abstraction to something workable on the level of all other personnel detection?
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mfb
post Apr 21 2004, 08:56 AM
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how about: he doesn't.

this is the sixth world; magic is an integral part of it. this is like asking "how does someone who doesn't have the means to mask their odor slip past guard dogs?"
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Anymage
post Apr 21 2004, 09:13 AM
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Everything I am saying here is house rules... or more to the point, house fluff. None of it's official, but it "feels right" considering the rules and background on magic.

First, contrary to what both the books imply and the board takes for holy writ, auras do not "light up the astral" like a halogen bulb. Rather, living things are bright and vivid the same way you'd be if you wore a hot pink coat. Someone with plenty of quickened spells might be as headache-inducing as a hawaiian shirt while you're on acid, but wouldn't put out any real candlepower on his own.

Second, non-living things are dull and grey (or at least washed out), making it rather hard for an astral observer to differentiate them. A drone would actually have an easier time sneaking past an astral observer than a physical one. This opens an interesting loophole that many fantasy-based games seem to have; when is an object "part of you", and when is it an object on its own.

Third, objects "pick up" the aura of someone who carries/wears them for a period of time. (Another way of looking at it is that the aura bleeds over into the object.) This aura bleed depends on the amount of time spent with the object, the physical proximity, and the emotions attached to it. In general, this happens rather quickly; while a sec guard who just donned his armor might still be "seperate" from it enough to be immune to spells, shortly into his shift he feels "at home" enough in his armor that it counts as part of him. (Note that if you want to add hard house rules, this would allow intimate posessions such as a wedding ring to count as ritual links. I don't see this as a bad thing.)

So for a potential physical saboteur, he's already focusing on keeping himself "muted", which should reflect somewhat on the astral. He's dealing with a very small security force that probably won't look too hard unless something draws their attention, and he's probably wearing at least some form of full-body covering camo suit. (The last wouldn't protect him from spells, but as he's focusing on keeping himself muted, the camo suit should be less than vibrant, too.) If he stumbles across a spirit (or far less likely, a projecting magician), he's SOL just as if he stumbled across a real sec guard. But if he makes his roll, he's "there's nothing to see here" enough that astral security doesn't cross his path when he's vulnerable, and he doesn't stand out to a casual look when they do cross paths.
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Moonstone Spider
post Apr 21 2004, 09:51 AM
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QUOTE (mfb)
how about: he doesn't.

this is the sixth world; magic is an integral part of it. this is like asking "how does someone who doesn't have the means to mask their odor slip past guard dogs?"

Lye soap and several other chemicals do wonders for masking your scent (Ask anybody who bowhunts, you pretty much have to use scent masks). Even if I haven't any soap, as a mundane I can at least fight back against the dogs by luring them with a steak laced with poison, killing them with a silenced weapon, etc. If an all-mundane team tries to break into a facility with astral security your mundanes will probably wind up with composite sketches of their appearance at Lonestar before they ever leave. Of course they won't know this.

The problem he's pointing out is that without your own magician you can do nothing at all about it. The astral person is invisible and invincible to all your weapons, all your sensors, all your defenses.

The biggest bit is your GM's job, if you have an all-mundane shadowrunner team he shouldn't be throwing massive astral security at you in the first place and more than a GM should give an all-magician Shadowrunner team a matrix run. A run must be tailored to the group that will be doing it.

One device I'd like to see that was houseruled in on one game (by me to help mundanes hunt astral forms) is astral goggles. In-game these were described as a membrane of cloned awakened tissue that possessed astral perception, kept alive in a nanite/nutrient bath that had to be replenished daily, making them absurdly expensive to own (So they were a one-shot deal). The tissue's neural impulses were attached to a DNI (Yeah, the tissue lost some essence. Boo hoo.) and then to an LCD screen that interpreted it. The astral perception was thus available to anybody who wore the goggles. This, combined with dual-natured spell-shell bullets let them fight back at astral forms, though not particularly well given how fast astral forms are.

In another run I was doing as a player we had no way of defending ourselves against astral observers, so my character got an oxygen bottle and spraypainted FAB-III on it, then on the getaway loudly commented "Hey, there might be a mage following us on the Astral. Let's let some FAB-III out!" Then let the bottle hiss and pour out a little oxygen. Did it work? Well no astral security nabbed me but I never knew if there was any in the first place.
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mfb
post Apr 21 2004, 10:09 AM
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that's kinda my point: if you don't currently have the means to deal with dogs, buy yourself some lye soap. if you don't currently have the means to deal with mages, buy yourself a mage. that, or don't take jobs that deal with dogs or mages.
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noname_hero
post Apr 21 2004, 11:12 AM
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Like mfb says: get the means to deal with magical security, or don't run against it. Some thing are difficult or impossible and its nobody's fault, learn to accept that. You can't outrun a gazelle, even if a tiger can. You can't fly, but look at all those birds. You can't...

If you know that all the aces would be in the opposition's hands, don't play the game. Try one where the chances are in your favor.

Don't go in at midnight, wearing ninja dress. Get yourself a good matrix cover. Walk in during daytime rush, wearing some appropriate dress, hand your ID to mundane guards if you can forge one (even if the forgery is only good for the 10 minutes your job will take), slip past them if you can't, do your job. Most places need somebody to take out garbage, most facilities are so large that people don't even know all their colleagues who work on the same floor, ... There are many possibilities, depending on the place and mission.

Bribe somebody to let you in, or blackmail them into helping you...

Use your imagination, because you will NEED it. Shadowrun world contains magic. You can't change that (wellll, you can, but that'd be another thread). Learn to cope with it.


As for astral googles :) , such devices (and other similar methods, e.g. detection spell giving the receiver limited ability to look into astral, sustained in a focus) face one big problem: they cause alert (and, unless they have high rating, get damaged/destroyed) every time they pass through a ward, because the *must* be dual to be able to look into astral. This can make them useless indoors, as most places with magical security also have wards in some key places.
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Mardegun
post Apr 21 2004, 02:25 PM
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I personally feel that stealth is really hard to actually do and every game I have never seen over simplify it ... which is really a good thing.

For example off the top of my head I would say there are 3 major components

1) The five senses sight, hearing, smell, touch and ... taste
2) Knowing the environment. To be really effective at being stealthy you have to know how to you use your environment.
3) Anticipating your enemies. A person can hide in complete day light from a person, if they are in their blind spot ... i.e. behind them. ;)

All three of these things make up stealth. Here is a quick break down of sight

Sight: This is by far the most common way of stealth. If you hide behind an object a person isn't going to see you ...duh. However there are many different types of sight.

For example hiding in a dark corner is perfectly stealthy, unless your opponent can see in the dark.

Using cameo is great for blending into the environment. This will make you hard to see even with low-light vision, however with thermo vision you are obvious.

The way I see it is that astral perception is pretty much the same as thermo vision, expect that nonliving things are muted (Think predator thermo vision). There is one major difference and that is more magic/life doesn't mean the person is brighter.

For example a mage with 2 or 3 sustained spells isn't going to look a like a xmax tree. The more magic there is a on a person the more complicate their aura is, not brighter. Imagine a person wrapped in different colored ribbons. At first it looks like a jumble mess, but as you look closer you can identify the individual ribbons. This works for most cases, expect foci

Foci make it easier to see a person, because they are points of energy rather than ribbons. The more powerful the foci are, the easier it is to see the person with it. Also the more foci a person has, the easier it is to see the person. Awaken people who know how to mask, can hide foci and spells. However only powerful intiate can mask spells completely.

So the best way to not be seen via astral sight is to be behind objects ... of course this is unless when mages can pass through objects. In short you are screw, or at at least until someone can invent a method to mute a person aura.
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TinkerGnome
post Apr 21 2004, 02:37 PM
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Mardegun, most of the stuff you mention is already in the rules in one place or another. Except for taste. If you're tasting someone hiding, then you've obviously found them. As for the astral...

My personal opinion is that anyone can hide from an astral observer, it's just hard. If you're currently looking at the astral plane (actively percieving or projecting) it's a straight stealth roll with any astral visibility modifiers added on. If you're not looking at the astral, it gets harder. If you've never even seen the astral (ie, you don't have astral perception) it gets even harder (I'd give the mundane human a -6 on his high roll for stealth because he simply doesn't know what it requires).
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hobgoblin
post Apr 21 2004, 05:02 PM
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hmm, one way a mundane could detect a astral entity is with uv light and a spraycan of FAB-1. sray it into the air, turn the uv light on and if some astral entity passes tru the cloud you will see the FAB sparcle. oh and FAB-1 is fully mundane :)

sure its not perfect but its one way for a mundane to detect a astral being :)
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Zazen
post Apr 21 2004, 06:01 PM
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I meant to respond to this in the other thread, but later it dropped off the bottom of the thread list and I forgot. Sorry.

I've thought about it and realized that yes, you're right, there is no reliable way to stealth around on the astral. Then I thought about it some more and realized that, well, there's no reliable way to stealth around on the physical either, it's just a little easier. All of the things you mention work for astral stealth.


So now the issue is how the mundane detects astral security measures, right? Well here we go with another list of ideas, fresh from my colon:

He gets the security plans for the building or compound.
He scopes the place out beforehand with the help of a mage.
He walks around with a detect magic spell.
He carries large amounts of FAB with him.
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broho_pcp
post Apr 21 2004, 06:46 PM
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How I view stealth:

When you roll your skill, you do not roll it to see if you can walk right past a security guard who is looking right at you. If they can see you, they can still see you. Stealth does not make you suddenly invisible. That is what the invisibility spells are for. Stealth rolls determine how well you sneak. That includes hiding behind doors, desks, in the shadows, timing your movements so the cameras/guards are not looking, moving silently, understanding the floor plan and patrols to minimize contact with observers.

I deal with stealth in areas, you roll a 24, the guard for that area (whether he is near or not) rolls against a 24. If you win, you can move through the whole area undetected untill you leave that area (unless you do something to give the guard an opportunity to hear you a.k.a gunshots). The area in question may be a floor of a compound or a decently sized space.

Example: you approach a door to a group of rooms in a facility. "I wan't to sneak in there and go to room A-2." stealth roll:12, guard roll:4 GM: "Ok, you quietly open the door and slink into the first room. You slip your mirror out and use it to look around the corner at the guard station. The guard is obviously asleep as you can hear him snoring. You remember where the cameras are avoid them as you make your way to room A-2."

Any ideas on this?

(edited to add astral stuff)
Astral tests: opposed test between astral entity and person. Person wins -> entity does not notice person sneaking through rooms. Entity wins -> on normal patrol, encounters person sneaking through rooms.

This post has been edited by broho_pcp: Apr 21 2004, 06:49 PM
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RedmondLarry
post Apr 21 2004, 09:23 PM
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I run it as mfb's first post describes: It's very difficult to physically stealth in an area patrolled by astral magicians that are looking for mundane intruders. It's very easy to get spotted if you are sneaking in a room when the magician happens to come by. Luckily astral security by magicians is rare.

Most places with astral security use Watchers, Natures Spirits, or Elementals with the command for them to look at astral space for intruders, or people coming in with spells on them. It's too hard to physically introduce all authorized mundane staff members to a new Nature Spirit every 12 hours or a new Watcher every few hours. Therefore the spirits don't know which mundane people are authorized and which are not. They are told to ignore mundane stuff.

Since places need physical security anyway, they generally rely on the physical security to handle physical intruders, and let astral security worry about astral and magical intruders.

Yes, a few places will employ magicians to roam in astral space. Extremely rare. High cost for magicians, limited amount of time in Astral Space, and too few available to cover a whole building well.
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Arethusa
post Apr 21 2004, 11:02 PM
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QUOTE (mfb)
how about: he doesn't.

this is the sixth world; magic is an integral part of it. this is like asking "how does someone who doesn't have the means to mask their odor slip past guard dogs?"

How about: he does. Why? Because it's goddamn stupid to create a class of people or players that are far and away more capable than the rest on a level at which the majority are not simply less capable, but completely incapable with no recourse. Why don't we just skip from here to the fucking master race.

Not only does this make for a stupid world and a stupid game, but canon makes it clear that hiding is possible. The rules are there on a very broad scale, but there's no explanation.

QUOTE (Moonstone Spider)
Lye soap and several other chemicals do wonders for masking your scent (Ask anybody who bowhunts, you pretty much have to use scent masks). Even if I haven't any soap, as a mundane I can at least fight back against the dogs by luring them with a steak laced with poison, killing them with a silenced weapon, etc. If an all-mundane team tries to break into a facility with astral security your mundanes will probably wind up with composite sketches of their appearance at Lonestar before they ever leave. Of course they won't know this.

The problem he's pointing out is that without your own magician you can do nothing at all about it. The astral person is invisible and invincible to all your weapons, all your sensors, all your defenses.


Exactly right. And it's this dynamic that horrendously breaks the game for mundanes.

Yes, the GM shouldn't be bringing astral security down on mundane infiltrators, but that's not the point. Even if the GM doesn't bring a broken mechanic against his players, it's still horribly broken, and it still needs to be fixed.

As for astral goggles, they really don't work. Any place with magical security's going to have wards, and dual natured stuff is going to have trouble going through. This kills any chance of these goggles working, as well as Spellshot rounds (though I very much like the idea, and if anyone has an idea for making them not interact with wards, I'd like to hear it). I personally would much prefer a passive sort of defense. Perhaps a sort of aura dampening option for armor that basically acts like astral camouflage.

QUOTE (mfb)
that's kinda my point: if you don't currently have the means to deal with dogs, buy yourself some lye soap. if you don't currently have the means to deal with mages, buy yourself a mage. that, or don't take jobs that deal with dogs or mages.

No, you don't go out and buy yourself a mage. This only perpetuates the problem of having a class of people dependant on a higher class of people because the former can never hope to defend against this mystical, invisible, invincible force. Besides, I can sit outside and case the place, noting dogs, number of guards, radio traffic, possible entry vectors, and whatever, but I can never find out until I'm positively fucked whether astral security is present or not.

QUOTE (noname_hero)
Don't go in at midnight, wearing ninja dress. Get yourself a good matrix cover. Walk in during daytime rush, wearing some appropriate dress, hand your ID to mundane guards if you can forge one (even if the forgery is only good for the 10 minutes your job will take), slip past them if you can't, do your job. Most places need somebody to take out garbage, most facilities are so large that people don't even know all their colleagues who work on the same floor, ... There are many possibilities, depending on the place and mission.

Bribe somebody to let you in, or blackmail them into helping you...

These are absolutely awful suggestions for a professional whose job is to infiltrate undetected do a job, and never be noticed during or long after. Despite what canon suggests, real infiltration does not involve smooth talking through the front gate. Aside from very unusual cases, that only gets you on security cameras and ingrained in the minds of the guards.
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mfb
post Apr 21 2004, 11:30 PM
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i agree that the rules for the Stealth skill and Astral sight should be clarified, possibly making it easier to sneak up on--or past--an Awakened being. but complaining because your mundane character can't sneak past an astral guardian because you won't know where the astral guy is, that's--it blows my mind, it's insane. how about we take ultrasound sensors out, too, since not everyone has accesst to ultrasound detector/emitter gear? how about we disallow laser tripwires, since they're so goshdarn hard to see? let's get rid of CCSS rigged systems, too, because not every group has a rigger!

there are ways to defeat astral security, many of which have been mentioned in this and other threads. the fact that you don't like them because it means your mundane can't put on his ninja outfit and go traipsing through a facility unnoticed has no bearing on the issue. oh, wait, you're somehow an expert on what sneaking into places is really like? you're a secret agent in real life, or something? come on, use a little imagination--all you have to do to determine if astral security is present is hack the damn employee files and find out which ones are magically active! woo, that was tough! oh, but wait, that means you're dependent on deckers--a higher class of person with access to mystical, invisible forces normal people can never hope to defend against!
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Arethusa
post Apr 21 2004, 11:51 PM
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How about we take out all countermeasures to ultrasound detection, leaving it as the sole perfect intrusion countermeasure? If no mundane can ever counter it, then it will keep out everyone who is mundane. That is the case with astral as it's been described.

No method of detection should be perfect. Unfortunately,astral detection is the perfect countermeasure to anything mundane, and that is all it comes down to.
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mfb
post Apr 22 2004, 12:00 AM
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except for the part where it's not. want to take the astral security out? hack the employee records, catch the mage at home, and slip some time-release carcerands filled with narcojet into his drink. search for the security plan he's charged with maintaining--you think a big corp is just going to hire a mage and let him do whatever he wants? no, the mage will have to file a detailed plan that tells exactly how he's going to provide security. hire a gang to create a distraction. use some imagination and forethought, instead of expecting to be able to waltz in and do whatever you want just because you've got a high Stealth skill. despite what you suggest, real infiltration involves weeks and months of preparation.
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hobgoblin
post Apr 22 2004, 12:25 AM
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lets see, magesare humans and humans have a bad habbit of overlooking obvius things, just think about the last time you looked for something all over the house and it was on the table in front of you.

and spirits are only as intelligent as theyre force and are a bit slow about technical things overall, and watchers even more so.

allso a mage is limited to what 6 hours of astral time unless he is initiated and then he only extends it by one hour pr level of initiation?

a alarm is more reliable then a guardas a guard can become bored or tired or similar, and when they become that they become distracted.

personaly if i wanted to guard a area against intrusion i would rely on guard animal and spirits on the grounds and drones, cameras and sensors hooked to a rigger network and/or host inside.

if you want a mage to do patrols then either he have to set ut all the wards or be designated as ok (timeconsuming and may have to be repeated) or he will have to avoid the areas that have biofiber and FAB in theyre walls, floors and so on, and this will most likely be any and all meetingrooms, areas that handle sensitive info and so on. sure they could wall of the entire building that way and have the mage be located inside but then he cant pass outside to check on stuff if needed.

allso, anyone feel like calculating the avarage surfacearea of a officebuilding? to locate someone inside a officebuilding starts of at targetnumber 6 (2 for a astral patrol, +4 for the building interior) and goes up from there depending on the area coverd. and personaly i would handle stealth use by either adding the roll to that or replaceing the 2by the roll and then adding the usual modifiers.

to searcha room astraly you either have to zigzag all over the place to check blindspots, and that takes time, or you just stop in the middle of the room, looks around and then moves on. hell not even a mundane patrol checks every blindspot in a room unless they are on high alert, guards are humans and humans are lazy.

the point is that the mage or spirit will have to be in the room at the same time as you are, and if its 1 entity and a whole office building well then its more like blind luck then anything else.
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Arethusa
post Apr 22 2004, 12:50 AM
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mfb, what part of professional, undetected invasion did you not understand? I'm not exactly being terribly cryptic here.

Yes, a mage is human. I realize they are not infallible, but the fact remains that their abilities are. Short of simple gross human error— which is not a reliable intrusion variable— there is no explanation for how he or she can miss an infiltrator. Yes, there is a time limit. There are also shifts of guards, and while I realize that not everything will be watched all the time, it's still a hell of a lot of time, and enough to stop any infiltration that must remain reliably undetected.

Yes, the mage or spirit are going to need to run into you— just like any guard— and yes, there are far fewer of them. Problem still remains that a mundane has no counter save sheer probability, and no professional will ever work like that.
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mfb
post Apr 22 2004, 01:07 AM
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arethusa, myself and several others have offered multiple options that a professional could explore, in order to work around magical security. all of them require time, forethought, planning, and intelligence. your plan apparently involves depending on your Stealth skill to avoid all that troublesome "thinking". i know which of these two paradigms sounds more professional to me.
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Arethusa
post Apr 22 2004, 02:17 AM
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Actually, you haven't, and maybe if you took a few moments to lay off the bellicose, obnoxious flaming, you might have noticed.

For a solid professional who needs it infiltrate, do a job, and exfiltrate without ever leaving a trace of his presence, astral security, as written, effectively makes this impossible. Every single intrusion countermeasure, no matter how extreme, is not perfectly insurmountable for this infiltrator short of having every single inch of the facility watched by ultrasound, but this, naturally, would be prohibitively expensive. A single patrolling mage, however, is enough to create an obstacle that no mundane will ever be able to counter. The mage is invincible and invisible, and the fact that there is nothing to explain how a mundane can successfully bypass magical security on site.

Evading mundane security measures is more than just rolling stealth, but it is also something that an infiltrator can effectively manage as be proceeds through, assuming he remains cool and adaptable. There is no way around astral since it's impossible for him to ever guard against it short of just saying 'I roll stealth and that counts for astral.' So maybe you can calm down and lay of the childish inflamatory remarks.
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Clyde
post Apr 22 2004, 02:35 AM
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Personally I think there are a lot of great suggestions for avoiding magical security here, even as a mundane. However, it seems to me that Arethusa doesn't want to hear about them. It seems he's more interested in a fix that would allow a mundane to evade astral security and know that he has evaded it. Some way of detecting/defeating a spirit or an astrally projecting mage.

While there are lots of creative rules hacks that might allow that, it would destroy balance in the world (not necessarily in the campaign but in the rest of the world). If corps had access to technology that let free range mundies hunt down spirits and mages they'd jump on it: as it is they have enough problem with toxics, ecoterrs and native americans that they'll shell out for full time sec-mages, high force wards, FAB I-III, paranimals, bound elementals and whoall knows what else.

As a specific piece of advice to what must be Arethusa's character: shell out the money to have a mage quicken or spell lock a detect magic (pg 193, SR3)or analyze magic (pg 140 MitS) spell on your character. If he or she is nice, your GM might let your character put up the karma in a fashion similar to paying first bonding cost for a focus or to a spirit pact: possibly at a 3:1 ratio just like a human with a free spirit. Any detection spell can be cast on a willing subject that the caster touches (pg 192 SR3) and the radius of the spell is Force times the caster's Magic Attribute in meters (ibid). That won't be as good as having astral perception (or astral goggles: cute idea) but it'll give your guy a chance. Like Daffy Duck always says: if you can't beat 'em, join 'em!
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Arethusa
post Apr 22 2004, 02:42 AM
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I'm not looking for a way to be physically aware of whether I've evaded it or not. I'm looking for something that allows mundanes to reliably counter it. My suggestion of aura dampening as an armor buil option wouldn't tell me a damn thing if I got detected, but it dramatically lowers my chances of being detected, just as I can wear camouflage to lower my chances of detection, but if guards spot me, they may let me continue until they're in a much more advantagous position. That's all.

While I feel that magic is horrendously broken and unbalancing— any side with magical presence will almost assuredly trounce any side without it— I do agree that something like the goggles would be an extreme that goes well against what Shadowrun is. And, on top of this, I dislike them because they largely cheapen the experience of being awakened. I don't like being able to slap on my astral goggles and look at a world I've never been able to experience before. Astral sight's not like looking through FLIR, or something.

As I understand the magic rules, wouldn't such a spell run into problems if I passed through a ward? I could be wrong. Regardless, like I said, I don't need to be able to instantly detect anyone near me who's poking around on the astral; I'm just looking for a viable countermeasure, and, really, a passive one would be much more preferable.
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Clyde
post Apr 22 2004, 03:12 AM
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Either a quickened spell or an active spell sustaining focus will trip up on a ward. There's even a chance that the quickened spell will be permanently destroyed by one. Of course, either of these spells would tell you what was coming before you hit the ward.

It's an interesting problem you present: astral camouflage. If they can make astrally active bacteria that is unusually bright and active, can they make astral materials that are unusually dull and dead? MitS has a few examples of astral security measures such as leach constructs, FAB and biofiber but it all seems fairly rare and primitive. There's Little Smoke in Man and Machine that grants the powers of confusion and concealment, but I'm not certain either works against a purely astral being. Of course, that's hardly a long term solution. The fact is, this is one of those black holes in which there are no rules. There's no spell, adept power or item that really does what you want. Arguably, the spirit power Concealment is written broadly enough to pull it off but that's about it. Magic in the Shadows mentions the possibility of unique foci, magic items that are completely outside the standard foci normally available. Perhaps one of those could camouflage your aura from prying magely eyes.

I would think that with an active detect magic spell, the user would have time to seek cover and thereby use stealth when an astral form comes by. It'd be chancy but not impossible.

Of course, in large part your topic is flawed. It's not stealth and astral perception. The problem is much worse than you think. Astral mages and spirits can follow you anywhere, some can find you anywhere in the world with the right rituals or search powers. They can track you down, keep tabs on your every move and send in waves of water elementals to manifest in your shower (you won't be wearing armor in there, and don't even think about trying to use your taser while you're soaking wet)! So in a way the mundane is perennially screwed. On the other hand, we have them outnumbered :D

It comes down to finding the right balance game by game. That means you should probably lobby your GM instead of the boards :) They're the only one that can really answer these questions that go right off of canon.
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mfb
post Apr 22 2004, 03:31 AM
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i'm not sure the guy who spouted off about the "master fucking race" needs to tell anyone else about bellicose flaming.

regardless. any security measure that involves living beings is never going to be perfectly insurmountable. if there are guards, you might run into one of them taking a piss. if there's a mage, you might run into him taking an astral stroll. you keep talking about a professional, undetected intrusion--all but one of the options i've presented will allow you to intrude without being undetected. hiring a gang to create a distraction will let you intrude undetected. hacking the mage's security plan and scanning it for weak points will let you intrude undetected. your basic complaint is that you can't go about doing the intrusion the way you want to do it--that's not a strong enough reason to change the system.

magic is no more broken or unbalanced than decking. if something you need is in the Matrix, you're screwed without a decker--heck, at least with magic, there's a 1 in a million chance you won't get seen; with the Matrix, you're completely out of options if you can't get ahold of a cyberdeck.
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Arethusa
post Apr 22 2004, 04:01 AM
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QUOTE (Clyde)
Either a quickened spell or an active spell sustaining focus will trip up on a ward.  There's even a chance that the quickened spell will be permanently destroyed by one.  Of course, either of these spells would tell you what was coming before you hit the ward. 

It's an interesting problem you present: astral camouflage.  If they can make astrally active bacteria that is unusually bright and active, can they make astral materials that are unusually dull and dead?  MitS has a few examples of astral security measures such as leach constructs, FAB and biofiber but it all seems fairly rare and primitive.  There's Little Smoke in Man and Machine that grants the powers of confusion and concealment, but I'm not certain either works against a purely astral being.  Of course, that's hardly a long term solution.  The fact is, this is one of those black holes in which there are no rules.  There's no spell, adept power or item that really does what you want.  Arguably, the spirit power Concealment is written broadly enough to pull it off but that's about it.  Magic in the Shadows mentions the possibility of unique foci, magic items that are completely outside the standard foci normally available.  Perhaps one of those could camouflage your aura from prying magely eyes.

I'm not nearly as familiar with magic as I am with the rest of the system, but a lot of what I've seen seems to certainly make room for the possibility of mundane materials dampening magical activity enough to make detecting an aura difficult while not causing problems with active magic (ie the stuff wouldn't do a damn thing for you if you get manabolted).

QUOTE (Clyde)
I would think that with an active detect magic spell, the user would have time to seek cover and thereby use stealth when an astral form comes by.  It'd be chancy but not impossible.

I agree, it is a slim possibility, but what I was really interested in was something a bit more subtle. And, of course, there's the issue with such a spell causing problems if you walk into a warded building, as such things are quite likely when you're talking about high security compounds.

QUOTE (Clyde)
Of course, in large part your topic is flawed.  It's not stealth and astral perception.  The problem is much worse than you think.  Astral mages and spirits can follow you anywhere, some can find you anywhere in the world with the right rituals or search powers.  They can track you down, keep tabs on your every move and send in waves of water elementals to manifest in your shower (you won't be wearing armor in there, and don't even think about trying to use your taser while you're soaking wet)!  So in a way the mundane is perennially screwed.  On the other hand, we have them outnumbered  :D

That is a good point, and I am aware of it. My biggest issue, really, was with the fact that an inability to effectively remain undetected hurts more than ritual magic because the latter requires a good tissue sample, a lot of work, etc. I do agree, though; mundanes are at a bit of a ridiculous disadvantage, and this thread was only intended to deal with a small aspect of that. At least there's more of us.

Maybe we should force all awakened to wear armbands. I like yellow.

QUOTE (Clyde)
It comes down to finding the right balance game by game.  That means you should probably lobby your GM instead of the boards  :)  They're the only one that can really answer these questions that go right off of canon.

True, it varies from game to game, though I'm not playing at the moment (and haven't for almost a year). Given my lack of deep familiarity with the magic rules, I figured it was worth discussing and seeing if Dumpshock had ruled out this issue.

QUOTE (mfb)
i'm not sure the guy who spouted off about the "master fucking race" needs to tell anyone else about bellicose flaming.

Maybe you can calm down and not assume that I'm out to get you. You know, given that that was in no way directed at you, and you just seemed to come out swinging for no real reason. I would rather this thread did not turn into a flame war.

QUOTE (mfb)
regardless. any security measure that involves living beings is never going to be perfectly insurmountable. if there are guards, you might run into one of them taking a piss. if there's a mage, you might run into him taking an astral stroll. you keep talking about a professional, undetected intrusion--all but one of the options i've presented will allow you to intrude without being undetected. hiring a gang to create a distraction will let you intrude undetected. hacking the mage's security plan and scanning it for weak points will let you intrude undetected. your basic complaint is that you can't go about doing the intrusion the way you want to do it--that's not a strong enough reason to change the system.

Yes, you can run into a gaurd taking a piss. But you can quickly neutralize him and adapt your plan or get the hell out of doge. You can avoid him, and, with any luck, he won't notice you and you'll just be in a tight spot. But with a mage, you are completely fucked and you will then proceed to walk into a very unpleasantly armed welcoming committee without ever knowing better.

I'd like to point out that hiring a gang as a distraction is actually a very unprofessional way of moving in, as it results in a gang of people whom, after having the shit kicked soundly out of them, will not mind pointing you out, as well as cause for a massive investigation afterwards and cause for massive response immediately. This is a thoroughly awful approach unless a full assault is already your plan. My basic complaints have been quite basically explained thus far, and you still seem deeply intent on assuming otherwise.

QUOTE (mfb)
magic is no more broken or unbalanced than decking. if something you need is in the Matrix, you're screwed without a decker--heck, at least with magic, there's a 1 in a million chance you won't get seen; with the Matrix, you're completely out of options if you can't get ahold of a cyberdeck.

Your metaphor is completely flawed. If I need to access information on the net that is inaccessible for a relatively skilled computer user (but non decker), I can hire a decker. If I need to get information that I can only get astrally, then I hire a mage. But I do not need to hire a decker to avoid being spotted on infiltration, as it is a task throughly grounded in the mundane with no more connections to the net or to the astral than anything else. Therein lies the problem: for effective stealth, I need a mage, but I do not need a decker.
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