Ok, so it's been discussed before, but I've yet to see anything that sufficiently explains how this works. So, that said, how can a highly skilled mundane infiltrator— one skilled enough to basically break into most high security facilities and bypass most countermeasures with an extreme level of professionalism— expect to bypass astral security? Yes, there are rules that govern this on the abstracted level of a building with a searching mage, and, yes, stealth rolls apply to the astral, but how does any of this make sense? How can a mundane infiltrator ever expect to react and adapt to an intrusion countermeasure he can never see?

And, before you try, let me list the explanations that have been given so far that do not really help the situation

• Background Count: While it'd be great if everywhere in SR had a standard background count of +1 or +2, this is simply not so. Yes, walking through downtown Seattle on an afternoon would probably be +2. Yes, even at during the late evening, when people are getting sparse, +1. But half an hour after those people are gone, we're down to 0. And 0 means very visible. Besides, I'm not sure I buy it that everywhere you ever go in SR has a background count of at least 1 or 2.
• Bacteria: Not happening. Either mages are quite a bit more blind than I've ever seen mentioned, or this is just silly and they only see a light amount of background color.
• Hiding with other living things: Great, if I'm hiding in a forest, on a lawn, or in a crowd of people. Useless if I'm slinking through a corporate facility.
• Hiding behind physical things: Sounds simple, right? Only, I'm infiltrating, and how can I know when is safe to move and when I should hide? I can't spend all my time huddled under my Projecting Mage Proof Desk.
• Small awakened population: Assuming I can find out if magical security is present— which is unlikely, even with the best legwork— best I can hope for as a mundane is to pack my bags and go home. If I can't find out, like all unexpected security measures, I just need to be cautious, prepared, and adaptable, right? No. I can't be any of these things since I can never see it coming, provided it's there, and since a profession will assume it is in lieu of good intelligence, this just sucks. I might as well not bother with avoiding thermal spectrum detection since a lot of people can't see there, either.
• Stealth!: Great, the skill works mechanically, but dropping the numbers, it makes no sense.
• Earth aura: Either this aura is a lot stronger than I think or it's not enough, given that those percieving and projecting have no trouble seeing anything on the astral plane unless the target is specifically hiding (see above).

Ok, so the rules set a precedent. But how does it work in the first place?

And, for that matter, how can it be taken down from its current level of abstraction to something workable on the level of all other personnel detection?

how about: he doesn't.

this is the sixth world; magic is an integral part of it. this is like asking "how does someone who doesn't have the means to mask their odor slip past guard dogs?"

Everything I am saying here is house rules... or more to the point, house fluff. None of it's official, but it "feels right" considering the rules and background on magic.

First, contrary to what both the books imply and the board takes for holy writ, auras do not "light up the astral" like a halogen bulb. Rather, living things are bright and vivid the same way you'd be if you wore a hot pink coat. Someone with plenty of quickened spells might be as headache-inducing as a hawaiian shirt while you're on acid, but wouldn't put out any real candlepower on his own.

Second, non-living things are dull and grey (or at least washed out), making it rather hard for an astral observer to differentiate them. A drone would actually have an easier time sneaking past an astral observer than a physical one. This opens an interesting loophole that many fantasy-based games seem to have; when is an object "part of you", and when is it an object on its own.

Third, objects "pick up" the aura of someone who carries/wears them for a period of time. (Another way of looking at it is that the aura bleeds over into the object.) This aura bleed depends on the amount of time spent with the object, the physical proximity, and the emotions attached to it. In general, this happens rather quickly; while a sec guard who just donned his armor might still be "seperate" from it enough to be immune to spells, shortly into his shift he feels "at home" enough in his armor that it counts as part of him. (Note that if you want to add hard house rules, this would allow intimate posessions such as a wedding ring to count as ritual links. I don't see this as a bad thing.)

So for a potential physical saboteur, he's already focusing on keeping himself "muted", which should reflect somewhat on the astral. He's dealing with a very small security force that probably won't look too hard unless something draws their attention, and he's probably wearing at least some form of full-body covering camo suit. (The last wouldn't protect him from spells, but as he's focusing on keeping himself muted, the camo suit should be less than vibrant, too.) If he stumbles across a spirit (or far less likely, a projecting magician), he's SOL just as if he stumbled across a real sec guard. But if he makes his roll, he's "there's nothing to see here" enough that astral security doesn't cross his path when he's vulnerable, and he doesn't stand out to a casual look when they do cross paths.

that's kinda my point: if you don't currently have the means to deal with dogs, buy yourself some lye soap. if you don't currently have the means to deal with mages, buy yourself a mage. that, or don't take jobs that deal with dogs or mages.

Like mfb says: get the means to deal with magical security, or don't run against it. Some thing are difficult or impossible and its nobody's fault, learn to accept that. You can't outrun a gazelle, even if a tiger can. You can't fly, but look at all those birds. You can't...

If you know that all the aces would be in the opposition's hands, don't play the game. Try one where the chances are in your favor.

Don't go in at midnight, wearing ninja dress. Get yourself a good matrix cover. Walk in during daytime rush, wearing some appropriate dress, hand your ID to mundane guards if you can forge one (even if the forgery is only good for the 10 minutes your job will take), slip past them if you can't, do your job. Most places need somebody to take out garbage, most facilities are so large that people don't even know all their colleagues who work on the same floor, ... There are many possibilities, depending on the place and mission.

Bribe somebody to let you in, or blackmail them into helping you...

Use your imagination, because you will NEED it. Shadowrun world contains magic. You can't change that (wellll, you can, but that'd be another thread). Learn to cope with it.


As for astral googles , such devices (and other similar methods, e.g. detection spell giving the receiver limited ability to look into astral, sustained in a focus) face one big problem: they cause alert (and, unless they have high rating, get damaged/destroyed) every time they pass through a ward, because the *must* be dual to be able to look into astral. This can make them useless indoors, as most places with magical security also have wards in some key places.

I personally feel that stealth is really hard to actually do and every game I have never seen over simplify it ... which is really a good thing.

For example off the top of my head I would say there are 3 major components

1) The five senses sight, hearing, smell, touch and ... taste
2) Knowing the environment. To be really effective at being stealthy you have to know how to you use your environment.
3) Anticipating your enemies. A person can hide in complete day light from a person, if they are in their blind spot ... i.e. behind them.

All three of these things make up stealth. Here is a quick break down of sight

Sight: This is by far the most common way of stealth. If you hide behind an object a person isn't going to see you ...duh. However there are many different types of sight.

For example hiding in a dark corner is perfectly stealthy, unless your opponent can see in the dark.

Using cameo is great for blending into the environment. This will make you hard to see even with low-light vision, however with thermo vision you are obvious.

The way I see it is that astral perception is pretty much the same as thermo vision, expect that nonliving things are muted (Think predator thermo vision). There is one major difference and that is more magic/life doesn't mean the person is brighter.

For example a mage with 2 or 3 sustained spells isn't going to look a like a xmax tree. The more magic there is a on a person the more complicate their aura is, not brighter. Imagine a person wrapped in different colored ribbons. At first it looks like a jumble mess, but as you look closer you can identify the individual ribbons. This works for most cases, expect foci

Foci make it easier to see a person, because they are points of energy rather than ribbons. The more powerful the foci are, the easier it is to see the person with it. Also the more foci a person has, the easier it is to see the person. Awaken people who know how to mask, can hide foci and spells. However only powerful intiate can mask spells completely.

So the best way to not be seen via astral sight is to be behind objects ... of course this is unless when mages can pass through objects. In short you are screw, or at at least until someone can invent a method to mute a person aura.

Mardegun, most of the stuff you mention is already in the rules in one place or another. Except for taste. If you're tasting someone hiding, then you've obviously found them. As for the astral...

My personal opinion is that anyone can hide from an astral observer, it's just hard. If you're currently looking at the astral plane (actively percieving or projecting) it's a straight stealth roll with any astral visibility modifiers added on. If you're not looking at the astral, it gets harder. If you've never even seen the astral (ie, you don't have astral perception) it gets even harder (I'd give the mundane human a -6 on his high roll for stealth because he simply doesn't know what it requires).

hmm, one way a mundane could detect a astral entity is with uv light and a spraycan of FAB-1. sray it into the air, turn the uv light on and if some astral entity passes tru the cloud you will see the FAB sparcle. oh and FAB-1 is fully mundane

sure its not perfect but its one way for a mundane to detect a astral being

I meant to respond to this in the other thread, but later it dropped off the bottom of the thread list and I forgot. Sorry.

I've thought about it and realized that yes, you're right, there is no reliable way to stealth around on the astral. Then I thought about it some more and realized that, well, there's no reliable way to stealth around on the physical either, it's just a little easier. All of the things you mention work for astral stealth.


So now the issue is how the mundane detects astral security measures, right? Well here we go with another list of ideas, fresh from my colon:

He gets the security plans for the building or compound.
He scopes the place out beforehand with the help of a mage.
He walks around with a detect magic spell.
He carries large amounts of FAB with him.

How I view stealth:

When you roll your skill, you do not roll it to see if you can walk right past a security guard who is looking right at you. If they can see you, they can still see you. Stealth does not make you suddenly invisible. That is what the invisibility spells are for. Stealth rolls determine how well you sneak. That includes hiding behind doors, desks, in the shadows, timing your movements so the cameras/guards are not looking, moving silently, understanding the floor plan and patrols to minimize contact with observers.

I deal with stealth in areas, you roll a 24, the guard for that area (whether he is near or not) rolls against a 24. If you win, you can move through the whole area undetected untill you leave that area (unless you do something to give the guard an opportunity to hear you a.k.a gunshots). The area in question may be a floor of a compound or a decently sized space.

Example: you approach a door to a group of rooms in a facility. "I wan't to sneak in there and go to room A-2." stealth roll:12, guard roll:4 GM: "Ok, you quietly open the door and slink into the first room. You slip your mirror out and use it to look around the corner at the guard station. The guard is obviously asleep as you can hear him snoring. You remember where the cameras are avoid them as you make your way to room A-2."

Any ideas on this?

(edited to add astral stuff)
Astral tests: opposed test between astral entity and person. Person wins -> entity does not notice person sneaking through rooms. Entity wins -> on normal patrol, encounters person sneaking through rooms.

I run it as mfb's first post describes: It's very difficult to physically stealth in an area patrolled by astral magicians that are looking for mundane intruders. It's very easy to get spotted if you are sneaking in a room when the magician happens to come by. Luckily astral security by magicians is rare.

Most places with astral security use Watchers, Natures Spirits, or Elementals with the command for them to look at astral space for intruders, or people coming in with spells on them. It's too hard to physically introduce all authorized mundane staff members to a new Nature Spirit every 12 hours or a new Watcher every few hours. Therefore the spirits don't know which mundane people are authorized and which are not. They are told to ignore mundane stuff.

Since places need physical security anyway, they generally rely on the physical security to handle physical intruders, and let astral security worry about astral and magical intruders.

Yes, a few places will employ magicians to roam in astral space. Extremely rare. High cost for magicians, limited amount of time in Astral Space, and too few available to cover a whole building well.

i agree that the rules for the Stealth skill and Astral sight should be clarified, possibly making it easier to sneak up on--or past--an Awakened being. but complaining because your mundane character can't sneak past an astral guardian because you won't know where the astral guy is, that's--it blows my mind, it's insane. how about we take ultrasound sensors out, too, since not everyone has accesst to ultrasound detector/emitter gear? how about we disallow laser tripwires, since they're so goshdarn hard to see? let's get rid of CCSS rigged systems, too, because not every group has a rigger!

there are ways to defeat astral security, many of which have been mentioned in this and other threads. the fact that you don't like them because it means your mundane can't put on his ninja outfit and go traipsing through a facility unnoticed has no bearing on the issue. oh, wait, you're somehow an expert on what sneaking into places is really like? you're a secret agent in real life, or something? come on, use a little imagination--all you have to do to determine if astral security is present is hack the damn employee files and find out which ones are magically active! woo, that was tough! oh, but wait, that means you're dependent on deckers--a higher class of person with access to mystical, invisible forces normal people can never hope to defend against!

How about we take out all countermeasures to ultrasound detection, leaving it as the sole perfect intrusion countermeasure? If no mundane can ever counter it, then it will keep out everyone who is mundane. That is the case with astral as it's been described.

No method of detection should be perfect. Unfortunately,astral detection is the perfect countermeasure to anything mundane, and that is all it comes down to.

except for the part where it's not. want to take the astral security out? hack the employee records, catch the mage at home, and slip some time-release carcerands filled with narcojet into his drink. search for the security plan he's charged with maintaining--you think a big corp is just going to hire a mage and let him do whatever he wants? no, the mage will have to file a detailed plan that tells exactly how he's going to provide security. hire a gang to create a distraction. use some imagination and forethought, instead of expecting to be able to waltz in and do whatever you want just because you've got a high Stealth skill. despite what you suggest, real infiltration involves weeks and months of preparation.

lets see, magesare humans and humans have a bad habbit of overlooking obvius things, just think about the last time you looked for something all over the house and it was on the table in front of you.

and spirits are only as intelligent as theyre force and are a bit slow about technical things overall, and watchers even more so.

allso a mage is limited to what 6 hours of astral time unless he is initiated and then he only extends it by one hour pr level of initiation?

a alarm is more reliable then a guardas a guard can become bored or tired or similar, and when they become that they become distracted.

personaly if i wanted to guard a area against intrusion i would rely on guard animal and spirits on the grounds and drones, cameras and sensors hooked to a rigger network and/or host inside.

if you want a mage to do patrols then either he have to set ut all the wards or be designated as ok (timeconsuming and may have to be repeated) or he will have to avoid the areas that have biofiber and FAB in theyre walls, floors and so on, and this will most likely be any and all meetingrooms, areas that handle sensitive info and so on. sure they could wall of the entire building that way and have the mage be located inside but then he cant pass outside to check on stuff if needed.

allso, anyone feel like calculating the avarage surfacearea of a officebuilding? to locate someone inside a officebuilding starts of at targetnumber 6 (2 for a astral patrol, +4 for the building interior) and goes up from there depending on the area coverd. and personaly i would handle stealth use by either adding the roll to that or replaceing the 2by the roll and then adding the usual modifiers.

to searcha room astraly you either have to zigzag all over the place to check blindspots, and that takes time, or you just stop in the middle of the room, looks around and then moves on. hell not even a mundane patrol checks every blindspot in a room unless they are on high alert, guards are humans and humans are lazy.

the point is that the mage or spirit will have to be in the room at the same time as you are, and if its 1 entity and a whole office building well then its more like blind luck then anything else.

mfb, what part of professional, undetected invasion did you not understand? I'm not exactly being terribly cryptic here.

Yes, a mage is human. I realize they are not infallible, but the fact remains that their abilities are. Short of simple gross human error— which is not a reliable intrusion variable— there is no explanation for how he or she can miss an infiltrator. Yes, there is a time limit. There are also shifts of guards, and while I realize that not everything will be watched all the time, it's still a hell of a lot of time, and enough to stop any infiltration that must remain reliably undetected.

Yes, the mage or spirit are going to need to run into you— just like any guard— and yes, there are far fewer of them. Problem still remains that a mundane has no counter save sheer probability, and no professional will ever work like that.

arethusa, myself and several others have offered multiple options that a professional could explore, in order to work around magical security. all of them require time, forethought, planning, and intelligence. your plan apparently involves depending on your Stealth skill to avoid all that troublesome "thinking". i know which of these two paradigms sounds more professional to me.

Actually, you haven't, and maybe if you took a few moments to lay off the bellicose, obnoxious flaming, you might have noticed.

For a solid professional who needs it infiltrate, do a job, and exfiltrate without ever leaving a trace of his presence, astral security, as written, effectively makes this impossible. Every single intrusion countermeasure, no matter how extreme, is not perfectly insurmountable for this infiltrator short of having every single inch of the facility watched by ultrasound, but this, naturally, would be prohibitively expensive. A single patrolling mage, however, is enough to create an obstacle that no mundane will ever be able to counter. The mage is invincible and invisible, and the fact that there is nothing to explain how a mundane can successfully bypass magical security on site.

Evading mundane security measures is more than just rolling stealth, but it is also something that an infiltrator can effectively manage as be proceeds through, assuming he remains cool and adaptable. There is no way around astral since it's impossible for him to ever guard against it short of just saying 'I roll stealth and that counts for astral.' So maybe you can calm down and lay of the childish inflamatory remarks.

Personally I think there are a lot of great suggestions for avoiding magical security here, even as a mundane. However, it seems to me that Arethusa doesn't want to hear about them. It seems he's more interested in a fix that would allow a mundane to evade astral security and know that he has evaded it. Some way of detecting/defeating a spirit or an astrally projecting mage.

While there are lots of creative rules hacks that might allow that, it would destroy balance in the world (not necessarily in the campaign but in the rest of the world). If corps had access to technology that let free range mundies hunt down spirits and mages they'd jump on it: as it is they have enough problem with toxics, ecoterrs and native americans that they'll shell out for full time sec-mages, high force wards, FAB I-III, paranimals, bound elementals and whoall knows what else.

As a specific piece of advice to what must be Arethusa's character: shell out the money to have a mage quicken or spell lock a detect magic (pg 193, SR3)or analyze magic (pg 140 MitS) spell on your character. If he or she is nice, your GM might let your character put up the karma in a fashion similar to paying first bonding cost for a focus or to a spirit pact: possibly at a 3:1 ratio just like a human with a free spirit. Any detection spell can be cast on a willing subject that the caster touches (pg 192 SR3) and the radius of the spell is Force times the caster's Magic Attribute in meters (ibid). That won't be as good as having astral perception (or astral goggles: cute idea) but it'll give your guy a chance. Like Daffy Duck always says: if you can't beat 'em, join 'em!

I'm not looking for a way to be physically aware of whether I've evaded it or not. I'm looking for something that allows mundanes to reliably counter it. My suggestion of aura dampening as an armor buil option wouldn't tell me a damn thing if I got detected, but it dramatically lowers my chances of being detected, just as I can wear camouflage to lower my chances of detection, but if guards spot me, they may let me continue until they're in a much more advantagous position. That's all.

While I feel that magic is horrendously broken and unbalancing— any side with magical presence will almost assuredly trounce any side without it— I do agree that something like the goggles would be an extreme that goes well against what Shadowrun is. And, on top of this, I dislike them because they largely cheapen the experience of being awakened. I don't like being able to slap on my astral goggles and look at a world I've never been able to experience before. Astral sight's not like looking through FLIR, or something.

As I understand the magic rules, wouldn't such a spell run into problems if I passed through a ward? I could be wrong. Regardless, like I said, I don't need to be able to instantly detect anyone near me who's poking around on the astral; I'm just looking for a viable countermeasure, and, really, a passive one would be much more preferable.

Either a quickened spell or an active spell sustaining focus will trip up on a ward. There's even a chance that the quickened spell will be permanently destroyed by one. Of course, either of these spells would tell you what was coming before you hit the ward.

It's an interesting problem you present: astral camouflage. If they can make astrally active bacteria that is unusually bright and active, can they make astral materials that are unusually dull and dead? MitS has a few examples of astral security measures such as leach constructs, FAB and biofiber but it all seems fairly rare and primitive. There's Little Smoke in Man and Machine that grants the powers of confusion and concealment, but I'm not certain either works against a purely astral being. Of course, that's hardly a long term solution. The fact is, this is one of those black holes in which there are no rules. There's no spell, adept power or item that really does what you want. Arguably, the spirit power Concealment is written broadly enough to pull it off but that's about it. Magic in the Shadows mentions the possibility of unique foci, magic items that are completely outside the standard foci normally available. Perhaps one of those could camouflage your aura from prying magely eyes.

I would think that with an active detect magic spell, the user would have time to seek cover and thereby use stealth when an astral form comes by. It'd be chancy but not impossible.

Of course, in large part your topic is flawed. It's not stealth and astral perception. The problem is much worse than you think. Astral mages and spirits can follow you anywhere, some can find you anywhere in the world with the right rituals or search powers. They can track you down, keep tabs on your every move and send in waves of water elementals to manifest in your shower (you won't be wearing armor in there, and don't even think about trying to use your taser while you're soaking wet)! So in a way the mundane is perennially screwed. On the other hand, we have them outnumbered

It comes down to finding the right balance game by game. That means you should probably lobby your GM instead of the boards They're the only one that can really answer these questions that go right off of canon.

i'm not sure the guy who spouted off about the "master fucking race" needs to tell anyone else about bellicose flaming.

regardless. any security measure that involves living beings is never going to be perfectly insurmountable. if there are guards, you might run into one of them taking a piss. if there's a mage, you might run into him taking an astral stroll. you keep talking about a professional, undetected intrusion--all but one of the options i've presented will allow you to intrude without being undetected. hiring a gang to create a distraction will let you intrude undetected. hacking the mage's security plan and scanning it for weak points will let you intrude undetected. your basic complaint is that you can't go about doing the intrusion the way you want to do it--that's not a strong enough reason to change the system.

magic is no more broken or unbalanced than decking. if something you need is in the Matrix, you're screwed without a decker--heck, at least with magic, there's a 1 in a million chance you won't get seen; with the Matrix, you're completely out of options if you can't get ahold of a cyberdeck.

It's not like an astrally patrolling mage is the same kind of encounter as a wandering guard. The guard only has the Mark 1 eyeball to survey you with, and a mark 0 brain to evaluate what he sees. He can be shot/drugged/bribed/intimidated/fast talked or just plain blown up if he gets ornery. If you're wearing a business suit or a uniform, he may not even question you. On the other hand, a mage using astral perception can read your aura. He can see if you're unusually tense or nervous (and breaking into a zero zone you will be), he can see how much cyberware you have (probably plenty more than the guards, let alone your common wageslave), and he can manifest and tell a supervisor exactly what he's seen. Your janitor disguise does not hold up when it's clear from once glance at your aura that you have half a million nuyen worth of chrome and silicone jammed into your body.

Basically, the presence of a competent sec mage who happens to spot you is a done deal for any kind of infiltration. The alert will be out for sure, and if they play their cards right you're very likely to get hosed big time because you don't even know that there's a problem yet. Even a rigger in the system isn't that bad: he can't do that instant stress test to weed out the troublemakers from the drones and he can't spot your cyberware unless you waltz through a detector frame.

Thanks for the interesting thoughts and ideas on the Astral - I was wondering if any of you could also give some basic lessons about the Astral.

What exactly does a mage see in the Astral of the world around him - ie. that patrolling Astral mage in a corp facility. Does he see the walls and desks and phones and everything as a solid dull grey? Or is it translucent? That is, let say he's projecting in the corridor and there are offices on both sides. If there's someone in an office, can he "see through the wall" and see the person inside? Or is it limited like normal sight and he has to "stick his head" through the wall to see the person?

arethusa, you're not even trying. there are steps you can take to ensure that the gang you hire--or incite, or trick--can't finger you, or fingers the wrong guy. there are steps you can take to ensure that any investigation comes up with a red herring, leaving your own intrusion undiscovered. your basic argument, here, is that magic is broken because you can't sneak past mages. you're not exploring the other options that are open, you're not considering the idea that maybe trying to sneak past a guy who can see your soul is a bad idea. you're looking at the obstacle--magical protection--from one angle, and one angle only.

and if shooting/zapping/whatever a wandering guard works, why doesn't slipping the mage some pills so that he falls asleep in the middle of his shift work?

astral perception is blocked by solid objects. for a mage to see into a windowless room, he has to stick his head through the wall.

you're not paying any attention at all. i'm not sure how many more ways i can say this. here goes, one more time, in the clearest language i can muster:

find another way to deal with the mage.

If you don't think a magician has weakness, or that astral security is hardly foolproof, you really need to get a better grasp of the rules. Especially since people have been repeatedly and exhaustively explaining several of their problems to you.

But then again if you keep telling yourself that something as simple as Stealth is no good on the Astral Plane, shock shock, it's no wonder you think that Astral Security is foolproof. I can always go around and say that Stealth is no good against vehicle sensors, too, and thus "prove" how impossible it is to sneak past drones or a CCSS network regardless of how bloody wrong I was with that belief.

Of course the stealth rules aply to the astral. Read my first post. I acknowledge it right there. I've also yet to see a single good example how a mundane is capable of this feat since he can never see nor adapt to an astral presence surveilling and area. I've had it suggested that essence and internal mental state affect the visibility of one's aura, and that stealth training plays into the latter, but I don't think canon ever backs this up and I also personally feel it doesn't cover stealth well enough to make a hell of a lot of sense without allowing people to just be calm in the middle of a battle and therefore gain bonuses when the mage picks them.

Astral Perception has its own modifiers when it comes to spotting someone sneaking around. While on the Physical Plane JoeBob might be slinking by in the cover of total darkness (a +8 penalty for the obsever), he could very well be lit up like a Christmas tree on the astral (a +0 modifier for an astral observer). His Stealth roll still applies to both. He's just going to be easier to spot on the Astral than he is on the Physical because he is still being sneaky about it, slinking around next to as much cover as he can find (which applies on both planes), and that sort of thing.

Personally, and this is actually a house rule, I allow Magic Background or similar Knowledge Skills to be used as a Complimentary Test with Stealth solely for the purpose of gaining more dice against Astral Perception (just like the observer gets Complimentary dice from Aura Reading). This represents him taking advantage of aspects of the astral plane that he's aware of to hide his aura there, such as choosing to use a potted plant to hide behind instead of a desk. I likewise allow characters with Astral Sight to use Intelligence or Magic Background (whichever is highest) in the same fashion since they do know how to take advantage of the astral terrain. And again, by allowing these Complimentary dice, it equalizes out the bonuses the perciever gets from Aura Reading or other similar skills.

Regardless, Stealth works just fine on both planes. Magicians still have to make an Astral Perception Test to spot them, even if their target number (derived from the sneakee's Opposed Test plus modifiers) is lower than that of their mundane security guard companion. It's hardly fullproof either way. Some guy with Stealth 1 could always roll something ridiculous like a 50 on his single die and neither of those guards would likely spot him regardless of any modifiers for anything.

And it's actually pretty evenly-matched, too. Very few things give a TN bonus to Astral Perception Tests, while there's plenty of implants and technological means that give TN bonuses with normal Perception Tests. So while the Astral Perception Test might have a lower TN of its own, a physical Perception Test has the opportunity to be just as low due to Spatial Recognizers or Olfactory Boosters.

All right, I've just had a chance to reread the astral patrol table from MitS and I think we're making a mountain out of a mole hill here. When patrolling astrally, a mage makes an intelligence test with a target number of two to try to spot anything. However, that number assumes a lot of things: that the mage is patrolling a wide open area and that it's no more than 10,000 square meters. Sounds like a lot of space he can cover, doesn't it? It's not. 10,000 square meters is a square 100 meters on a side. This is a real kicker: the astral mage cannot cover a decent amount of territory and hope to spot a mundane. The target number goes up depending on how much area you want to cover but the maximum area on the table is 80,000 square meters. That's 800 by 100, so this still fairly small. And the penalty for an area this size is +8.

More importantly, you usually aren't sneaking into an empty field (although I grant that some days you are and on those days you are screwed ). A building interior counts as "complex terrain" for an additional +4 modifier.

So for a facility of any size, the mage is looking for a 14 on his intelligence test to spot you. Multiple searchers provide a minus one to the target number for every additional astral patroller. So the mage with 4 elementals in tow still has to get a 10. Remember what this is costing the corp to provide: each elemental has to be either repeatedly summoned at a cost of thousands of nuyen apiece, or bonded to the site by paying karma (and so probably paying the mage even more thousands). I'd think an astral mage and four elementals on a site would be pretty good astral security, but it turns out that they are virtually useless for most purposes.

Now these rules, in my humble opinion, just plain suck. They don't take stealth into account at all, despite astral perception being worded in a way that sure makes it look like you should by able to hide from a mage. More importantly, they aren't complete. They don't tell you how long it takes to search an area or how long an intruder has to be in an area to be spotted. Astral patrolling, in my opinion, should probably be changed so that a successful roll gives the mage the opportunity to make a perception test. That's where stealth comes in.

Arethusa, I think you can feel confident that if the mage needs a 14 or higher to see your character you don't even need to hide from him . On the other hand, astral security may decide to stick to patrolling a small choke point and or bulk up with multiple mages and watchers to try to get better coverage. If that's the case, go with one of the techniques we've suggested here or pass on the run: it's not fair of Mr. Johnson to expect one mundane working alone to accomplish everything. I mean please, you against a mage and his four elemental buddies in a tiny enclosed area is not going to cut it. But that's not broken, that's just obvious. That much astral security in an area the size of what, two football fields, is going to be a tough nut to crack.

Another basic question, but related to the topic - how well does sound "travel" in the Astral? Can one hear like normal? Or do sounds produced by non-living objects also seem dulled? I assume there sounds because it states that you can communicate like normal to others on the Astral. This would also impact stealth on the Astral.

Damn it, Fu! You just had to go and make things more confusing, didn't you?

From astral space you can certainly hear conversations between physical people. I don't recall if you can hear technological sounds (e.g. a telephone ringing).

You can easily talk with another astral entity. And you can manifest and speak to physical people.

I believe you never hear anything more than what people actually say to eachother, and it just works like that because it's magic. Could be wrong, though. Doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense anyway.

Speaking of communication, I've always thought it was very fitting that from the astral side you can't read written words on the physical, but you do get a generel sense of the emotional bases of the writing.

"your astral form has the normal human senses of sight ans hearing. ...speech and other sounds are as easy to hear from the astral plane as they are in the physical world." SR3, 173.

fool, your pathetic linking skillz are worthless against me. i'm already gibbering mad.