Salt Lake City, Need info for an upcoming game Options

[Tyro]

I'm building a character for an upcoming game, and I need some help. She's from Salt Lake City, a runaway who came to Seattle; I need to know what corps have significant presence in SLC but little or none in the Pacific Northwest (for her parents' employer) & more about SLC in the sixth world. I've read the SoNA blurb, but I don't have access to NAN1 or Twilight Horizon.

[Neko Asakami]

Rio Tinto (mining and metallurgy) has a decent presence, Huntsman (Chemical) is a Fortune 500 headquartered here, but a lot of our really big name companies are gonna be in Washington too because they're computer companies: Adobe, Novell, Oracle, and Electronic Arts just as some examples.

Do you have an idea as to what type of company they would work for? If so, I could probably dig up an example of a large local company.

As for what it's like in the 6th World, take every single stereotype you can about Mormons and crank it up about 10 notches. Add in a dash of a siege mentality from being the only bastion of "white" in a sea of NAN. Thankfully they dialed back (at least I felt) the isolationist zealot mentality in Twilight Horizon, making it seem a lot more like a generally conservative city than a Northern Idaho (or Texan, if that's your flavor) extremist compound. AFIK polygamy is still banned in SLC in the 6th world (which makes sense since the Mormon Church hasn't condoned it in well over 100 years).

[ChromeZephyr]

Having an allergy to pollution wouldn't be odd for her, either. Our winter "inversions" here give us air quality levels that rival Mexico City's in the current time, I can scarcely imagine how bad they are in a cyberpunk universe.

@Neko: Haven't read the TH stuff on SLC, all I remember is stuff from SoNA. Have they dropped the "Guns are only in the hands of the cops" line? I remember reading that bit and having a serious "WTF?" moment.

edit: I'd be tremendously surprised if SK or the Azzies haven't gotten their hands on both Rio Tinto and/or Huntsman. Unless the breakup of the US happened first, and then the NANs would have told both of them to take a long hike off of a short pier. Could go either way.

[hermit]

NAN 1: No megacorp presence is mentioned.

Twilight Horizon: Renraku has an unnamed and unrecognisable software programming subsidiary that reverse-engineers Horizon products. Horizon also has a moderate presence there.

General things to keep in mind:
- Salt Lake City is a self-governing entity run by a council of elders put in place by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which effectively runs the state as a theocracy. Ute nation recognised Mormons as a tribe in all but name, and I found nothing contradicting that after Ute's absorbtion into the PCC.
- SLC has a high level of education and is one of the wealthiest cities in the Ute.
- Mainstream Mormonism has adopted the FLDS stance on polygamy again. This obviously creates a demographical problem, though the books omit that fact (and is a very good reason for a young woman to run away really fast, really far).
- SLC society is as nonviolent as possible, banning all kinds of public cussing, "lewdness" and of course obvious cybernetics and weapons. Offenders will be escorted out of the city by local cops or tried according to Mormon customs. Violent offenders are turned over to Ute (Peblo, presumably) authorities. Violence is met by one of a number of CRTs or Ute/PCC military.
- SLC opts out of NAN tribe/racemongering and welcomes anyone, so long as they play by their rules. This seems to imply mainstream Mormonism did NOT roll back their 1978 decision on race.
- I have found literally nothing on Mormons' attitude towards magic, though given they "generally follow Ute laws and customs", I presume they have accepted magic as part of life somehow.

[Tyro]

SoNA states that the SLC sprawl is "tainted ground" due to centuries of Mormon occupation - the entire city is one big mana ebb. One non-canon source I found said it was actually aspected against non-Mormon magic; that would make sense too.

[hermit]

Indeed, that makes sense. That's in SoNA? Didn't check that book, because I have no PDF of it, but I had something like that in the back of my head. Still, I doubt Mormons get away with witch hunts in the NAN. Of course, whether they operate missions in the NAN, or in NAN reservations, is sommething that might deserve some writing. As is the massive demographic problem polygamy creates.

[Neko Asakami]

I haven't read SoNA (which I should), but that sounds really strange that it would be a mana ebb. I did read NAN1 about a year ago, so I'm probably mistaken on the polygamy thing, although it's actually pretty strange. If you were to extrapolate it off of real Mormon ideals, it'd probably be something more akin to a communistic (note the little "C") style of government led by Church leaders (I can't remember who exactly would be in charge, I'll ask my uber-knowledgeble friend about it a bit later today). The rest of what Hermit says is true though, silly as that may be comparing SLC and Mormonism from 20 years ago to today. Except the race thing, we're all pretty cool about that.

[hermit]

I did read NAN1 about a year ago, so I'm probably mistaken on the polygamy thing, although it's actually pretty strange.

It is, unless SLC is a main buyer in smuggled SINless women or rounds up and 'converts' SINless women at gunpoint by the truckload to marry them off or something. Demographics make sure polygamy never quite works out in stable societies. Probably a throwaway because Shadowrun tends to work clichés really hard, and not exactly thought through.

Mana Ebb makes a certain sense, or rather aspected ground, given the one-sided religious dominance of SLC, which is what generates aspected nature in SR's magic system.

Also, a theocracy is a theocracy, and unlike, say, Iran, SLC's government doesn't even pretend to be elected.

Also, the book states that it's hard for non-Mormons to find jobs in SLC, which I forgot to mention above, so the place has a certain subtle religious discrimination going.

[Jaid]

mormon polygamy as it was actually practised back in the day is not terribly similar to the mormon fundamentalist groups that practise polygamy today.

for one thing, not every man had multiple wives. the wives were supposed to each live in a separate house, and at the time it was mostly used in situations where a woman needed a man to support her (which is not generally the case any more, but was certainly considered important back in the 1800s). also, it was assigned to a man to have multiple wives (again, usually to provide support to women who had no men to do the heavy labour, which was considered a necessity at the time); the man didn't get to choose (though of course, as with any organization, there were likely some who abused their authority).

i would have to agree that it seems weird that they would have polygamy restarted officially. certainly, there are offshoots of the LDS church that practise it, but the main church hasn't practised it for well over a hundred years right now... and in the mainstream church at least, there isn't really any pressure to ever bring it back. when it's discussed, it's generally in the sense of "here's what happened in church history", and frankly even that doesn't come up terribly often.

also, i could see either a mana ebb or an aspected area, depending. we do believe in miracles... the problem with magic is that frankly, if you really look at it, it's hard to mistake it for performing miracles. the individual is obviously the source of power for several reasons (they make the choices without needing input from God, it isn't based on righteousness or authority granted from God, they will only be able to perform the few specific spells they know, they suffer drain, etc).

on the other hand, apparently many other christian groups have managed to somehow mistakenly perceive magic as miracles in the sixth world.

if i was going to try to design a "mormon" tradition of magic, it would probably not use spirits very much, would have a strong bias against the use of mental manipulations, and would have a major vendetta against possession traditions. it would likely have to be viewed as non-miraculous, and simply considered to be a gift from God in the same sense that a person can have a gift for singing or chemistry or any other thing. if that was the case (and in the sixth world, i see it as being fairly necessary to survive), i could certainly see the area being aspected against non-mormon magic... in particular aspected against possession spirits and mental manipulations, if that was possible.

[hermit]

mormon polygamy as it was actually practised back in the day is not terribly similar to the mormon fundamentalist groups that practise polygamy today.

for one thing, not every man had multiple wives. the wives were supposed to each live in a separate house, and at the time it was mostly used in situations where a woman needed a man to support her (which is not generally the case any more, but was certainly considered important back in the 1800s). also, it was assigned to a man to have multiple wives (again, usually to provide support to women who had no men to do the heavy labour, which was considered a necessity at the time); the man didn't get to choose (though of course, as with any organization, there were likely some who abused their authority).

That's prettying things up quite a bit. Mormon polygamy was practised, and is by LDS offshoots, much the same way it is practised in hardline Salafite circles and countries - a mix of support given to women (if it is reinstated that DOES tell you things about womens' roles in SR SLC, though) and upgraduiing your marriage with a more desirable, younger wife, who usually leads a rather crappy life displeasing her betters no matter what she does, whereas young men might find themselves hung out to dry and kicked out of the family to go and find their own wives and not compete with the elders for the limited supply of young women. There's a good deal of plot and story threads in this, if you ask me, but it's not exactly pretty.

Mormon magics could just use the Theurg tradition from German books. Summoning would be banned, magic entirely spell centric, and possession magic WORK OF SATAN in caps. Pretty gimped but hey, nobody said being righteous is easy. They couldn't afford the German Catholics' hardline hate on metas and non-christian magical paths though, because they're in the end dependent on the goodwill of a bunch of nonchristian mages and metas.

Also of note: SLC is nearly leveled in The Twilight Horiton by a torrent of red rain summoned by very malicious spirits living in the Mojave who are pissed at Horizon and lash out against random sprawls because of that (don't ask). But it seems it is salvagable.

on the other hand, apparently many other christian groups have managed to somehow mistakenly perceive magic as miracles in the sixth world.

Not nearly. Vatican theurgs (like the Sylvestrines) stury magic as a hermetic tradition. Generally, in older editions, Christian mages are often defaulted on Hermeticism, with only some defaulting on miracles and possession (though that happens too, and there are plenty of RL Christian frnge sects who are prety close to this).

[Tyro]

I really appreciate all the help. Small pet peeve: What you're all referring to as polygamy is more properly a twisted form of polygyny. Polygamy is an umbrella term covering both polygyny & polyandry. Mormon-style polygyny is a serious embarrassment to polyamorous folks like myself :-/

[ChromeZephyr]

Also of note: SLC is nearly leveled in The Twilight Horiton by a torrent of red rain summoned by very malicious spirits living in the Mojave who are pissed at Horizon and lash out against random sprawls because of that (don't ask). But it seems it is salvagable.

Wow, theocracies are bad for a city's health in Shadowrun. First Tehran, now Salt Lake. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

edit: This entire discussion reminds me of reading a thread about people living in São Paulo being unhappy with the write-ups for their home. I don't envy the freelancers, this has to come up with pretty much every city.

[hermit]

What you're all referring to as polygamy is more properly a twisted form of polygyny. Polygamy is an umbrella term covering both polygyny & polyandry. Mormon-style polygyny is a serious embarrassment to polyamorous folks like myself :-/

Polygamy, by default, is synonymous with polygyny, because culture based in book religions blah blah. That's why you are called polyamourous after all. No offense meant.

edit: This entire discussion reminds me of reading a thread about people living in São Paulo being unhappy with the write-ups for their home. I don't envy the freelancers, this has to come up with pretty much every city.

Someone's feathers are always ruffled. It helps to remind yourself this is fiction, and that it's mostly western authors will make blunders about places they have little idea of. Harbour city Bogotá, deep in teeming jungle, is a more recent example (look up Bogot'a in Wiki!).

[Neko Asakami]

Well, I definitely agree with the whole "aspected domain" thing, that would make a certain amount of sense.

Magic is going to be a huge issue to 6th World Mormonism. Now they believe that all worthy men who have undergone certain rites can use what is referred to as "The Priesthood." Long story short, they believe that anyone ordained with it can invoke God's power (by acting as a conduit for His power) and request certain things (healing the sick, consecrating houses/graves, casting out demons, etc). Most modern Mormons don't really consider these things to be miracles, although most others would. It wouldn't be hard for them to imagine that a Mage was only doing the same thing, but with a bit more agency as to what he can choose to do. Keyword there is "he." Women can't have the Priesthood, so women mages are going to be something they're not quite sure how to deal with. Honestly, I could see the church going a few different ways with it: 1. Ban all magic use (unlikely) 2. Let only men use magic as a manifestation of the Priesthood (50%) 3. Let women be ordained and call magic the Priesthood (very unlikely, they believe women's main power from God manifests as the ability to conceive) 4. Let men and women practice magic under controlled circumstances, being especially wary of summoning, believing it to be a new gift from God independent of the Priesthood. (Most likely based on the church's adoption rate of modern technology and other things)

As far as what is sounded like in the aftermath of the Red Rain, it really seemed to me like they were just hoping for anyone and everyone that could help them, Mormon or not. One thing that was severely glossed over (probably because they didn't know about it) is that the LDS church has an extensive aid network (which is used quite a bit in international crises, not just ones where the church itself is involved) and fairly large stockpiles of relevant supplies (food, medicine, etc) stored at several points around the globe. Relief would be fairly quick in coming and rebuilding would begin pretty much as soon as the waters are gone. Yes, the Mormons would control how and where things got divvied up, but you really wouldn't be turned away just because you're not of the faith.

[hermit]

Re Mormons and women and magic: I think #2 is the most plausible one. Add to that a bit of superstition and witches being generally considered female, women having a bad standing in book religions' mythology in general, and Mormon belief in daemonic possession, and being female and awakened sounds like a raw deal for Mormons.

Re Red Rain: I could see Horizon and the PCC coming for help, but not many others. The North Americva of 2074 is a hostile place, the CAS hates the PCC passionately over worthless desert inhabited by a handful of Latinos, the UCAS is in high paranoia mode anyway (as is Sioux), Aztlan is Aztlan and California and the SSC have their own crises' tio deal with.

[Nath]

Add in a dash of a siege mentality from being the only bastion of "white" in a sea of NAN.

Not necessarily so. The Mormons were allowed to stay in the NAN because their community supported the SAIM during the war. And a lot of them were probably willing to do so. The US government sent the armed forces in the West to hunt the Amerindians and send them back into the concentration camps they escaped from. Some Mormons would oppose that for purely theological reasons (when Joseph Smith said angels told him to bring salvation to the Native Americans, it didn't mean to kill them). Other simply because they think that isn't right. At that point, I guess the Mormons rather had the impression of being the only bastion of Christianity in the US. From their point of view, the Native would have been as good as neighbors as the rest of the US population, if not better.

Of course, the Mormons born after the Treaty of Denver, may not feel the same way. Especially if they were confronted to the strong anti-anglo sentiment that grew in the Ute over the years.

[ggodo]

All I know about Salt Lake City comes from my brief stay there on a road trip. There's a Victoria's Secret across the street from the big Mormon Temple. It's like having one right across the street from the Vatican.

[ChromeZephyr]

I'd throw a #5 in there: Much like homosexuality today, you can be Awakened, you just can't do anything with it. Not as harsh as banning/excommunicating, community-wise, but just as difficult for the unfortunate Mormon. That way they neatly side-step the "why are both women and men Awakening, rather than just holders of the priesthood?" question.

[Halinn]

I'd throw a #5 in there: Much like homosexuality today, you can be Awakened, you just can't do anything with it. Not as harsh as banning/excommunicating, community-wise, but just as difficult for the unfortunate Mormon. That way they neatly side-step the "why are both women and men Awakening, rather than just holders of the priesthood?" question.

That seems fairly likely for a religious community. Possibly with the addition that men who awakened would get pushed towards priesthood, to reinforce claims of divinely granted power.

[Wakshaani]

The Ute region contained both the Saints of Salt Lake and the Sinners of Las Vegas.

That's gotta mess with your nation when the population's so tiny. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

There are no Triple-A corps that are headquartered in the city, nor are any double-A, but the Church has influence of a large A or small Double-A, I'd think. And I'd lay good odds that Brigham Young University has a fantastic Thaumaturgy department.

And, yeah, I'd say that the magic is more likely aspected than a true Ebb. They tended to call it an ebb because "The place is so clean and antiseptic", which gave some people the wiggins as nowhere should be so nice. (The NAN and Twilight Horizon write-ups are quite keen.)

[hermit]

The Ute region contained both the Saints of Salt Lake and the Sinners of Las Vegas.

Both were in effect separate states that were just represented to foreign agencies by Ute, much like Monaco, Liechtenstein and San Marino are represented by France, Italy and Switzerland today.

Much like homosexuality today, you can be Awakened, you just can't do anything with it. Not as harsh as banning/excommunicating, community-wise, but just as difficult for the unfortunate Mormon. That way they neatly side-step the "why are both women and men Awakening, rather than just holders of the priesthood?" question.

Possible too, yeah. Though, given their polygamous ways, getting out in that case might be easier for men than women. And Mormons are quite obsessed with exorcisms even today.

[Neko Asakami]

And Mormons are quite obsessed with exorcisms even today.

I'm gonna have to ask if this is personal experience. In my 30 years, I've only known one person who knew a person who was "possessed" and even then the story is a bit shaky. Most Mormons, in my experience, don't actually think it happens anymore, if they even believe it can in the first place.

Also, it's not going to be BYU that has the good Thaumaturgy department, it'd be the University of Utah. They're way more tech oriented and attempt to push the cutting edge in damn near everything. Hell, they're one of the foremost centers for cybernetic research (in the real world) because of the amazing CompSci and Medical programs.

[hermit]

I'm gonna have to ask if this is personal experience. In my 30 years, I've only known one person who knew a person who was "possessed" and even then the story is a bit shaky. Most Mormons, in my experience, don't actually think it happens anymore, if they even believe it can in the first place.

Well, then most Mormons believe it to be possible; whether they're sincere about if they believe it still happens is ... something I sort of doubt (why shouldn't it?). And I knew a foreign exchange student who once told me he hasn't told his parents he was gay because that's daemonic possesion to them (it was one of these conversations you have as a designated driver, but personally, I think he was too drunk to lie). The guy was a Mormon.

[ChromeZephyr]

Well, then most Mormons believe it to be possible; whether they're sincere about if they believe it still happens is ... something I sort of doubt (why shouldn't it?). And I knew a foreign exchange student who once told me he hasn't told his parents he was gay because that's daemonic possesion to them (it was one of these conversations you have as a designated driver, but personally, I think he was too drunk to lie). The guy was a Mormon.

I wouldn't base "most" off of a conversation with a singular, drunken person. Never heard of exorcisms whilst growing up in the LDS church, and never hear about it from family that are still part of it. And given some of the "huh?" things thrown about by people in Sunday school and seminary, it'd have been talked about if it was big in the church.

And Wak, I'd say that BYU is about as likely to have a major Thaumaturgy department as Liberty University is to have a top-line Women's Studies program.

[Neko Asakami]

Well, then most Mormons believe it to be possible; whether they're sincere about if they believe it still happens is ... something I sort of doubt (why shouldn't it?). And I knew a foreign exchange student who once told me he hasn't told his parents he was gay because that's daemonic possesion to them (it was one of these conversations you have as a designated driver, but personally, I think he was too drunk to lie). The guy was a Mormon.

It's not. It's a choice in their eyes, one you can overcome by the usuals: praying, help from family, and LOTS of religion. This I know because my roommate is an openly gay Mormon.