Shadowrun 5 & a lot more in 2013! Options

[Falconer]

What i mostly take from the announcement is that this appears to be a bit more akin to the SR4 -> SR4a only a bit more extensive. That's my best guess. I really don't expect much more than something similar to a SR2 -> 3 type conversion... It seems that the matrix is finally going to get a lot of the attention it deserves rather than being a generic add-on to everything... (really wireless cyberlimbs... how can that not be a problem...)

That said. I'm not upset at all with the timing of a new edition... SR4th has been kicking for a good 8 years. It's about time for a 'garbage collection' and cleanup. My only problem is I don't have confidence that jmhardy as editor-in-chief is the one to do this (recent products have shown a lack of playtesting, poor editing quality... and I'm not one to nitpick grammar for the most part except as it affects rules ambiguity). That said... I'm not certain who'd replace him either...

I'll wait to see more... it'll be nice to see if they reach out to the player community at all for expanded playtesting at the least. I've seen Fantasy flight do this with Star Wars and some other games... and it seems to be a more positive experience. Especially if it gets the FLGS's involved a bit more... But that's a lot more work... as it requires someone to aggregate the rules and reports a bit more.

[Halinn]

Editing, however, is different than proofreading. There's a certain degree of crossover, but there are sharper limits on what proofreaders can do. If I encounter a truly terrible sentence, there's only so much I can do: I cannot, for example, completely rewrite it. That's the province of an editor.

Do you at least get to officially complain that "this sentence is a wreck", so editors might take an extra look at it?

I'm not crazy about more gear porn. I think that there's enough gear porn in there now, and the wrong kind of gear porn to start. What kind of game aRe you looking to emphasize?

I'm hoping that it means gear will be more modular, so they can just print a list of names and what mods they have to differ them from baseline options. Would be nice to just have a way to put new drones, guns, etc. together.

[Fatum]

(really wireless cyberlimbs... how can that not be a problem...)

Cyberlimbs use DNI. They might use wireless to get firmware updates, exactly like things work in RL for secure devices.

[Falconer]

Except Fatum... that they use DNI and wireless... and make no difference between them. So the rules don't support your POV that wireless ONLY does firmware... and even if they do only do firmware... fine i use the wireless to shove in new firmware which disables DNI and only allows for wireless control.

Which is how you run into hackers trying to break into peoples limbs and beating them to death with their own fist... Major Kusanagi Ghost in the Shell style.

The rules do not say differently... that's you putting your own limited view on the rules and ignoring aspects of them you don't like.

[Cain]

Do you at least get to officially complain that "this sentence is a wreck", so editors might take an extra look at it?

Yes and no. There's proofreader comments that track what changes we'd like to make. It's supposed to be solely for related comments, but I tend to get sarcastic about some of the things I encounter. I can't be a brutal as an editor should be, but I've had no difficulty getting my point across. I also can't rewrite a sentence, I can only make grammatical and punctuation changes. Still, if something is a total wreck, I can make a suggestion mixed with a lot of sarcasm and let the editor run with it.

[Wakshaani]

(Apologies if this formats weird; typing on a phone)

The biggest thing I want to know is what the design goal and challenges are. Throwing up a bullet list of Stuff that's Gonna Change!!! is nice, but all it gives is a nice, safe grey area for people to speculate with. And that's going to lead to problems within the community.

What I want to know is - what is the ultimate goal here? What vision ate the developers working towards? And then I can feel better and have a better opinion on an edition change-over.

All KINDS of signed paperwork says that the rules people aren't gonna say a thing in THAT regard until and unless Jason Hardy and the higher-ups give a sayso.

That's a darn good question, however!

[Grinder]

or any of the interesting hacks that people have done within the Storygames community (Shadowhack, Shadowguard, World of Shadows)

Where can I find these hacks?

[Ryu]

Where can I find these hacks?

This is what altavista yields on World of Shadows: (Look for Jul 5th)

[ravensmuse]

Where can I find these hacks?

I would have put these with my post, but I'm mostly on my phone now so linking is kind of hard (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Shadowguard: http://mightyatom.blogspot.com/2010/04/mou...n-hack.html?m=1 (requires Mouseguard)

Shadowhack: http://sentientgames.files.wordpress.com/2.../shadowhack.pdf (.pdf link)

World of Shadows: http://sentientgames.wordpress.com/2012/07...rld-of-shadows/ (requires Dungeon World / World of Dungeons)

[Grinder]

Thanks a lot! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[ravensmuse]

All KINDS of signed paperwork says that the rules people aren't gonna say a thing in THAT regard until and unless Jason Hardy and the higher-ups give a sayso.

That's a darn good question, however!

Yeah, I figured it would be a little while before we get anything concrete, but I WANT concrete before I'll get excited about the new edition.

Thanks a lot! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Welcome! Let me know if you try them out - I really want to get Mouseguard (in part because of the hack) and I haven't had an opportunity to run Old School Hack for my group sometime.

[ShadowDragon8685]

The way I see it, this could go to two extremes

Miserable Clusterfuck <-------------------------------------------------------------------------> Fragging Awesome.

Unfortunately, I have my reservations. I doubt it will go wholeheartedly to one side or the other, but given CGL's, ahem, spotted track record (No, I haven't forgiven you for the seaside of Bogota. Nobody ever will,) I suspect the answer may lie rather closer to Miserable Clusterfuck than Fragging Awesome.

Compounding the potential clusterfuck is that they're evidently not taking an all-hands-on-deck approach to the launch of a new edition, but seem to be simultaneously attempting to launch different products the same time.


A collectible card game!? What, was Magic: the Addiction dethroned from its pedestal as the god-emperor of all CCGs against which newcomers are doomed to an inevitable slide into profitability and failure while I wasn't looking?

Oh, except you've got a gimmick in the mix: doubling the required number of players. So you're combining the booster-pack-hunting financial blackhole (or rather, a doomed attempt at remaking the black-hole which is doomed to failure because the people with the money for the CCGs and the temperaments to play them are all already playing Magic,) with either the frustration of playing a pick-up game of DotA or LoL, the havok of trying to arrange four people's schedules to meet at the same time to play your damn CCG instead of, say, playing Texas Hold 'em or Shadowrun, Any Edition, or (more likely) players just building two decks and playing both slots on their side at a time.


Now, that's already a doomed endeavor. You're attempting to dethrone Magic, which has the advantage of (a) being a generic fantasy and thus having a broader target base than cyberfantasy, and (b) predating this by twenty goddamn years. Here, take a look at The list of CCGs. That list is fucking enormous, and you know what? The only ones I've even heard of are Magic, Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. This battlefield is littered with the corpses of the slain and fallen, callow youths who brandished their short swords and ran straight into the welcome embrace of heavy artillery. In fact, FASA tried it before. I can understand that you forgot, as that was still more half of my lifetime ago and given the cheerful clusterfuck that is Shadowrun licensing, you may not have even known about it, but still, come on! Making a CCG?

It's like trying to dethrone Warhammer 40K as a minis game - oh wait, you're trying that too. A tactical fucking minis game?! Really, guys? Really?! It's like you're following Wizards of the Coast's playbook for attempting to make their license with Lucas Licensing profitable over the Star Wars RPG.

It didn't work. The Star Wars Minis game was nothing more than a flash in the pan, even with Wizards of the Coast devoting pretty much all of their resources and effort into it and utterly ignoring the actual Saga edition of the RPG. Why? Because the market is already fucking saturated with Ultramarines and Orks and Eldar and Tau and so forth and so on. Meanwhile, this is likely to be seen for what I desperately hope it is not, but fear that it is - the blatant attempt to mini-ize the main game (as SWSE was,) in order to make the players of Shadowrun, 5th Edition need to buy Minis and Mini game maps and accessories (here's calling the Corpsec vs. Shadowrunners expansion now,) in the hopes that they'll just say "may as well" and start buying the stuff they need to complete the Minis game.

And.. A board game?! What, for when only half of your group shows up, too few to actually play Shadowrun, but everybody's in a Shadowrun frame of mind? Of all of the non-main-game products here, this is the only one I could actually see making a few bucks: board games tend to be simple, only one person needs to buy it in any given group, they don't (normally, anyway,) promise any attempt to make a sucking financial blackhole because the investment required is typically anywhere from $30-$60 upfront and then you're done, barring losing enough pieces of the set to necessitate purchasing a whole new one. The necessary investment on the publisher's side is much lower, too. Even so, though, this isn't going to be a cash cow. Again, the genre - cyberpunk-fantasy fusion - is too niche to have the appeal of the seriously moneymaking board games which get sold by the pallet in Wal-Marts and K-Marts.



Ultimately, I see the board game, CCG, and Minis game as being, at best, naively optimistic distractions from the actual Shadowrun RPG. Time, money, and talent are all going into making them when time, money and talent should be spent to make the 5th Edition product the best that I can be. Especially coming a company that has a history of its freelancers needing to take it to fucking court to get their money (indicating cashflow problems which should be making anyone and everyone involved with any of these projects nervous,) and which gave us the fucking seaside docks of Bogota, indicating a lackadaisical-to-nonexistant devotion to the editing and polishing process, something which is never going to be helped by multiplying the number of products requiring attention by four.

At worst, however, they're blatant attempts to milk the players for more money by cross-pollinating and cross-addicting them to the different products. Want to expand the Minis game money to people who like the RPG but wouldn't ordinarily consume Minis products? Make the rules for the actual game, from the ground up, assume that the player has tons and tons of Minis maps and minis to use! (I swear to Dunkelzahn, if you guys use "Squares" or "Hexes" or what-the-fuck-ever as your base unit of measurement instead of actual meters, I will be apocalyptically furious.) You know, just like the Star Wars Saga Edition RPG did in relation to Star Wars Minis, and at least they had the excuse for basing on squares that they were based off of d20, which is ultimately based off D&D as devised by E. Gary Gygax and that other bloke, which was itself based off Chainmail, which was a tabletop wargame!

(How'd that work out for them? Well, it infuriated the RPG-consuming population because WotC completely ignored them in favor of attempting to "Service the RPG obligation by producing this neat tabletop miniatures game that our lawyers say can just sneak past the Lucas Licensing contract as an RPG," resulted in them releasing only a handful of books, and ultimately failed to save their franchise.)

So, calling it now: The RPG will have a sheet/packet/whatever of rare (but not "tournament legal," as if they're ever going to host tournaments,) or unique cards for the CCG in it, thus requiring all of the twenty people in the world who absolutely have to buy every CCG product ever put out by anyone for any game line ever to buy a copy of Shadowrun, 5th Edition to catch 'em all, and/or hopefully igniting the "shut up and take my money!" CCG fever amongst Shadowrun, 5th Edition players. Meanwhile, the RPG will have rules and wording that, from the ground up, makes it sound as if you can play the game without minis and minis maps, but that you're stupid if you attempt to do so, unlike, oh, every prior edition of Shadowrun ever. It'll also poorly synergize with their "Faster, deadlier" combat, because if there's one thing that facilitates a heaping mound of dead character sheets, it's the need to collect, paint, and customize just that one right miniature to represent their character. And Damn you guys to hell if you try to do minis products the booster pack way. Because nothing says "fuck you give us more money" like telling GMs/players that they need minis for the RPG, then refusing to just come out and fucking sell them the mini(s) they need. Thanks, guys, what am I gonna do with my fifteenth Mafia Enforcer and Ancients member when my game is currently in Hong Kong and I need Triad members and Lone Star!

But of course, the potential for bullshit monetization doesn't end there! Why, just imagine it: you could cross-pollenate the Minis and CCG by packaging random minis and random cards together in the same booster boxes and charging them at only 90% of what you'd want for both of them individually! Sooner or later, the minis players will look at their stack of shoulda-ebayed-them-when-I-had-the-chance cards and decide to put together a deck and buy whatever other accessories they need. Meanwhile, the CCG and Minis game might have, in their own accessories packs, little things with rules on them that let you show up to a board game and get an inherent advantage because the text printed by CCG says you do, because nothing builds bonds of friendship like demonstrating the fact you have ten times as much disposable income as your friends and cheerfully use it to gain a gameplay advantage over them in what is notionally supposed to be a "fair" and friendly contest. And heck, why stop there? You can print little info cards containing nuggets of information for the RPG - most likely gear. possibly quick and ready stats for generic NPCs - and distribute them in the booster packs as well, hopefully getting (forcing) the players of the RPG to get in on the addiction action to actually complete their understanding of the game. (Or, more likely, just get it from the Internet.) And heck, why not go all the way and include a mini-splatbook for the RPG in the board game, or even build it into the manual therefor!


Excuse me. I'm driving myself into hyperbolic disgust here, on flimsy (read: no) evidence of cash-grabbing shenanigans on CCG's part.



The long and the short, the tl;dr version: either CCG is engaging in stupid and pointless over-reaching, attempting to launch two doomed products and one very niche product at the same time as they attempt to launch Shadowrun 5th Edition, draining time, money and talent away from the 5th Edition at the exact time when they need to devote time, money and talent to it the most, or they're gearing up for a blatant cash-grab by trying to engineer a gotta catch 'em all situation among three or four different products (depending on how and whether they can figure out a way to turn a board game into a collecting frenzy,) and then cross-pollenate them all, as if we all had infinite sums of money to throw at them. At best, this will result in those of us who only give a damn about the RPG information getting whatever information is RPG-useful from the internet, and at worse will actively make Shadowrun, 5th Edition, a much, much worse game, by writing everything assuming you consume both the Minis game (and thus have both maps and tons of minis on hand,) and the RPG. That would be like Christian Rock. They're not making Christianity any better, they're just making Rock 'n Roll worse.

CCG, please don't make Shadowrun, 5th Edition worse by trying to make me buy Sprawl Gangers and Crossfire goods.

[Halinn]

I got the idea that they were trying to make a card game where they included all the cards in it, rather than a CCG (like Illuminati or Dominion)

At least you set your expectations low, so you likely won't be disappointed.

[Patrick Goodman]

Don't hold back. Tell us what's really on your mind.

[ShadowDragon8685]

I got the idea that they were trying to make a card game where they included all the cards in it, rather than a CCG (like Illuminati or Dominion)

Well, if they do that, then that might actually work out nice and be kind of... Ethical.

How likely is that to happen? But we can hope, right?

At least you set your expectations low, so you likely won't be disappointed.

Do you remember the Star Wars, Saga Edition? Do you remember the seaside docks of Bogota?

I didn't set my expections low, they were hammered there.

Don't hold back. Tell us what's really on your mind.

I think that's about all of it.

[_Pax._]

A collectible card game!? What, was Magic: the Addiction dethroned from its pedestal as the god-emperor of all CCGs against which newcomers are doomed to an inevitable slide into profitability and failure while I wasn't looking?

Not to mention, it's been done before. And it's failed before, too.

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2123/sh...ading-card-game

... to quote Vaas, from Far Cry 3: "Have I ever told you the definition of insanity?" (Warning: profanity.)

Want to expand the Minis game money to people who like the RPG but wouldn't ordinarily consume Minis products? Make the rules for the actual game, from the ground up, assume that the player has tons and tons of Minis maps and minis to use!

Yeah - just like D&D 4th did (another reason I walked away from that edition).

I'm hoping that's not true ... but, all cards on the table, let's be honest enough to acknowledge that it's a possibility.

And Damn you guys to hell if you try to do minis products the booster pack way. Because nothing says "fuck you give us more money" like telling GMs/players that they need minis for the RPG, then refusing to just come out and fucking sell them the mini(s) they need. Thanks, guys, what am I gonna do with my fifteenth Mafia Enforcer and Ancients member when my game is currently in Hong Kong and I need Triad members and Lone Star!

This. This is another reason I walked away from 4E ... despite having purchased three thousand dollars worth of D&D 3.X edition books. Not shitting anyone here: I have FOUR milk-crates full of 3E, 3.5E, and a handful of Pathfinder books. All but three or four of those D&D books are WOTC's own - so it's all directly first-party stuff. I was heavily invested in the D&D franchise, and 4E or not, if I could have guaranteed what I was getting, would have bought high-quality prepainted minis.

And heck, why stop there? You can print little info cards containing nuggets of information for the RPG - most likely gear. possibly quick and ready stats for generic NPCs

Contacts, Allies, special gear modifications, "discount coupons" ("20% off one Ares product during character creation!"), Edge coupons ("Refresh two Edge, once per session!"), spell formulae, programs and program options ...

Yeah. It could physically be done. And it would be every bit as dick a move as you suggest.

...

Again, I seriously hope that this is NOT the direction Catalyst wants to take Shadowrun. And it probably isn't.

But, well, "all cards on the table" and suchlike, right?

[Patrick Goodman]

Do you remember the Star Wars, Saga Edition?

Actually, yes. Quite fondly. Had an enormous amount of fun with it.

[Sengir]

A collectible card game!?

No, a deckbuilding game. Dominion and Ascension are probably the best known examples of the genre

[Fatum]

I don't think the new edition can be either fragging awesome or a clusterfuck. It can also obviously be kinda ok or kinda meh - just like the recent Shadowrun products.

The rules do not say differently... that's you putting your own limited view on the rules and ignoring aspects of them you don't like.

Could you please quote the rules that say that implant control over DNI can be overridden over wireless. Or that wireless can be used to control the essential implant functions like cyberlimb movement.

[hermit]

I don't think the new edition can be either fragging awesome or a clusterfuck. It can also obviously be kinda ok or kinda meh - just like the recent Shadowrun products.

+1

I'm waiting until I see more. I will, however, be very put off if SR5 assumes I buy minis to play. I hate tactical mini maps for RPGs with a passion. Not only am I not particularily good at painting minis, I'd also need to compromise a lot on my character's looks just for the sake of playing a game I don't want to play instead of the game I do want to play. It's one of my major gripes with current D&D, though admittedly not the largest one. And it makes the game sluggishly slow, because you have to keep so much more in mind and everyone considers their turn like playing chess. I'm okay with sketchy maps, but minis, no thanks. I don't even use minis in games based on a minis game, like Deathwatch.

[Fatum]

To be fair, Deathwatch is a game about "so this turn I kill this hundred guys and leave the other hundred to my Battle Brothers. FOR THE EMPEROR, WE ARE THE ANGELS OF DEATH", not about tactical maneuvers on a battle map.

[hermit]

To be fair, Deathwatch is a game about "so this turn I kill this hundred guys and leave the other hundred to my Battle Brothers. FOR THE EMPEROR, WE ARE THE ANGELS OF DEATH", not about tactical maneuvers on a battle map.

Yeah, but since most of my players have huge collections anyway we sure could use tactical maps (or just the online warhammer tt app, since we play online). Just, it takes SO MUCH TIME to set up. And even more to move. It becomes as slow as tabletop wargames, which I don't understand anyway in an age where there is Supreme Commander with it's 81*81 km land war maps.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Not to mention, it's been done before. And it's failed before, too.

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2123/sh...ading-card-game

... to quote Vaas, from Far Cry 3: "Have I ever told you the definition of insanity?" (Warning: profanity.)

Yeah, I called that out, too. You might have missed it in my barrage of rant.

Yeah - just like D&D 4th did (another reason I walked away from that edition).

I'm hoping that's not true ... but, all cards on the table, let's be honest enough to acknowledge that it's a possibility.

I never even looked into 4th ed. But hopefully, White Wolf will figure out that this is part of the reason their fanbase abandoned them.

Contacts, Allies, special gear modifications, "discount coupons" ("20% off one Ares product during character creation!"), Edge coupons ("Refresh two Edge, once per session!"), spell formulae, programs and program options ...

Yeah. It could physically be done. And it would be every bit as dick a move as you suggest.

Holy shit, yeah. I hadn't even thought of that, I was just thinking "You want to know what the stats are for the Ingram Smartgun XII? Have fun buying minis and cards!"

I can't see that shit flying at any table I know of, not unless they try to push that shit for Missions, and oblige GMs to accept them and - oh. Oh my god.

*Sits down.*

If this shit comes to pass, someone at Catalyst better change their name to Wang C. Johnson. (The C stands for Cockerel.)

Again, I seriously hope that this is NOT the direction Catalyst wants to take Shadowrun. And it probably isn't.

But, well, "all cards on the table" and suchlike, right?

Eeeeyup. Shoot straight (with your player base,) conserve talent, watch your back, and never, ever, cut a deal with a financier.

Should CCG be planning to go to the Dark Side, though, I imagine many/most of us are fully prepared to, as the song says, take the money and run.

Actually, yes. Quite fondly. Had an enormous amount of fun with it.

So do I, but the whole minis and mapping thing was a goddamn fucking nightmare, especially if you play over IRC or another chat client. Finding/making maps for my players was always the hardest bit, even when using OpenRPG. So by all that's fragging holy, I hope they don't try to turn Shadowrun 5th Edition into "Shadowrun: The Rules-Heavy Version of the Miniatures Game."

I don't think the new edition can be either fragging awesome or a clusterfuck. It can also obviously be kinda ok or kinda meh - just like the recent Shadowrun products.

Fatum: I don't think the new edition can be fragging awesome.

But remember, these are the people who gave us the Seaside docks of Bogota. "Clusterfuck" is always an option with them, like failure for the Mythbusters.

Could you please quote the rules that say that implant control over DNI can be overridden over wireless. Or that wireless can be used to control the essential implant functions like cyberlimb movement.

There's no rules that say it can't be, either, which is why most players usually note on their character sheets that they set those settings.

[_Pax._]

Could you please quote the rules that say that implant control over DNI can be overridden over wireless. Or that wireless can be used to control the essential implant functions like cyberlimb movement.

SR4A p221, NETWORKING -> Devices -> Peripheral Devices; includes "cyberware" with no qualifiers or exceptions.

SR4A, p229, Cpmplex Actions -> Control Device (Command): grants full remote control of a devices functions, all of them. No exceptions or exclusions are noted. For example, a cyberhand can be made to open, close, form a fist, etc. Or you could just shut down the neural interface entirely (which is probably a good idea before trying to remote-control the implant, anyway).

SR4A, p232, Spoof Command (Spoof): the limb can be made to think that a given motor signal came from the neural interface; it will react accordingly.

...

IOW, cyberlimbs and other implants are hackable Device Nodes. And since all the "make it do what you want" actions do not exclude cyberlimbs to any degree ...

[Lionhearted]

Holy shit, yeah. I hadn't even thought of that, I was just thinking "You want to know what the stats are for the Ingram Smartgun XII? Have fun buying minis and cards!"

Has someone actually tried to pull off drek like that?