Shadowrun 5 & a lot more in 2013! Options

[Ixal]

Decks are for the power, as I read it, more than anything else. You need better hardware to hack.

Going from one style of network to another couldn't ever be anything other than a protocol - you might have to design and build it from scratch beginning at the physical layer, but that's still all it would be.

From the story so far it looks like the only change the new matrix brings are new protocols, not new hardware (new hardware produced certainly has more safeguards though). But even old comlinks can access the new matrix and yet are still incapable of hacking anything.

[RHat]

From the story so far it looks like the only change the new matrix brings are new protocols, not new hardware (new hardware produced certainly has more safeguards though). But even old comlinks can access the new matrix and yet are still incapable of hacking anything.

My impression is that hacking requires more power, now. Otherwise, all you'd need is a commlink where the "safeties" have been removed or overridden.

[Ixal]

My impression is that hacking requires more power, now. Otherwise, all you'd need is a commlink where the "safeties" have been removed or overridden.

Remember the Storm Front story

[ Spoiler ]

Where FastJack & gang tries to hack a new matrix node the first time. They needed new, self build, hardware for it. Netcat could do it being a TM, but got pretty much instant kicked, knocked out and tracked by GOD as soon as she got noticed.

Something might have been said about comlinks in SR5 in the podcast, but I don't remember (was old news to me). I might relisten part 2 for it.

[Fatum]

"Dozens of kilometers" doesn't build a global net. You still need hundreds/thousands of those devices.

There are billions of them out there already, dispensed around the world. To build a global network you just need hosts in range from each other at any given point.

And that doesn't address the problem of oceans.

Which doesn't exist thanks to islands, ships, and high-signal devices being easily available.

And who has so much money and is willing to do that when it means being exposed?

Participating in such a network would not even require installing a program on your commlink. Just don't upgrade to the new matrix.
I've listed interested sides up there in the thread, a few of them possess massive resource pools.

And there is still the question of why. Some anarchist communities connecting themselves over a secondary matrix? Ok, sounds reasonable. But for the average wageslave such a second matrix would be entirely useless as he can't access any services with it. So it wouldn't in any way threaten the megas new matrix.

Because no corp is willing to hand over more of its authority than absolutely necessary, and no corp wants Big Ten snoops in its network. No runner, career criminal, or spook wants his network interactions monitored.
The concern is, of course, much less pressing for the corp drones, but those of them who deal on the side (and that makes quite a few of them) have a vested interest in these interactions remaining undetected.

[Ixal]

There are billions of them out there already, dispensed around the world. To build a global network you just need hosts in range from each other at any given point.

Which doesn't exist thanks to islands, ships, and high-signal devices being easily available.

Participating in such a network would not even require installing a program on your commlink. Just don't upgrade to the new matrix.
I've listed interested sides up there in the thread, a few of them possess massive resource pools.

Because no corp is willing to hand over more of its authority than absolutely necessary, and no corp wants Big Ten snoops in its network. No runner, career criminal, or spook wants his network interactions monitored.
The concern is, of course, much less pressing for the corp drones, but those of them who deal on the side (and that makes quite a few of them) have a vested interest in these interactions remaining undetected.

The new matrix seems to be a joint venture between the megas. So while there will be not 100% cooperation don't expect the usual amount of fighting between them. GOD seems to have universal access, and thats the reason corps are a bit hesitant to call them. And inside their own layer corps have 100% control.
Upgrading to the new protocol seems to be mandatory and is done without consent it seems (See De La Mars interview in StormFront)
You listed some parties which might set up a localized net for their own use, but they neither have the resources or will to create a global net and make it free for everyone. And they are quite unwilling to cooperate.
They will at most create a local shadow net for their own use and maybe communication between such zones if convenient. But nothing which would resemble a world wide grid or would actually be a threat to the corp controlled matrix as it would pretty much exclusively be used for criminal content.

[binarywraith]

I'm still curious where GOD is even getting a percentage point of the processing power actually needed to monitor even a trivial fraction of the billions of packets per second that even a single corp network feeds to the public Matrix, but that's me.

[Fatum]

The new matrix seems to be a joint venture between the megas. So while there will be not 100% cooperation don't expect the usual amount of fighting between them. GOD seems to have universal access, and thats the reason corps are a bit hesitant to call them.

GOD having universal access means any corp outside of the Big Ten loses from participation.

You listed some parties which might set up a localized net for their own use, but they neither have the resources or will to create a global net and make it free for everyone. And they are quite unwilling to cooperate.
They will at most create a local shadow net for their own use and maybe communication between such zones if convenient. But nothing which would resemble a world wide grid or would actually be a threat to the corp controlled matrix as it would pretty much exclusively be used for criminal content.

Except there are global forces among them.
Let's go with a precedent: FidoNet. It wasn't supported by corps and governments, not even criminal syndicates for all we know, yet it was global, and its content wasn't somehow purely criminal.

I'm still curious where GOD is even getting a percentage point of the processing power actually needed to monitor even a trivial fraction of the billions of packets per second that even a single corp network feeds to the public Matrix, but that's me.

Aha, I've mentioned this above.

[Ixal]

I'm still curious where GOD is even getting a percentage point of the processing power actually needed to monitor even a trivial fraction of the billions of packets per second that even a single corp network feeds to the public Matrix, but that's me.

GOD doesn't monitor everything, the protocols (and likely agents) are doing the work (Probably filtering out everything not conforming. Another reason why I think the protocols are very intrusive.) And if an alarm is triggered the corps are coming after you and the race against the clock starts. Maybe even when a cyberdeck is detected (because its stealth fails or whatever).

[RHat]

Remember the Storm Front story

[ Spoiler ]

Where FastJack & gang tries to hack a new matrix node the first time. They needed new, self build, hardware for it. Netcat could do it being a TM, but got pretty much instant kicked, knocked out and tracked by GOD as soon as she got noticed.

Something might have been said about comlinks in SR5 in the podcast, but I don't remember (was old news to me). I might relisten part 2 for it.

Which would be protocol issues - remember how they got around it? One of the posters noticed that some programs worked, and managed to stitch some compatible code together from a number of old programs. Pure protocol problem.

And as for "filtering out everything non-conforming", not conforming to what? Catching hackers that way would require an intelligence - anything else, they could just fool 100% of the time the instant they know how it works.

[Ixal]

Which would be protocol issues - remember how they got around it? One of the posters noticed that some programs worked, and managed to stitch some compatible code together from a number of old programs. Pure protocol problem.

And as for "filtering out everything non-conforming", not conforming to what? Catching hackers that way would require an intelligence - anything else, they could just fool 100% of the time the instant they know how it works.

If it were just the protocol, FastJack wouldn't have needed to build a deck.
But who knows? We are all just speculating.
The only thing we really know is that there are new protocols, the megas "take back" the matrix, hacking requiring specialized hardware as the normal commlinks are incapable of hacking and that (the intention in SR5 is that) hacking is a race against the clock before the corps get you as it is infeasible/not possible to fight them off.
It was mentioned in the podcast that their idea was that hacking something is temporary. The corps will find out that you did something and repair the damage eventually (no timeframe given). So you/your team has to make the most out of the time where your changes are undetected.

[RHat]

And I still need to sit down and listen to the podcast, but as presented it sounds like something of a questionable idea - it's just one of those things in cyberpunk that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[Wakshaani]

Also, remember that the Matrix isn't the Internet. It works differently. 4th ed used a lot of real-world design to make them similar, so more players could understand it, but, the whole thing's designed in a fashion that's kind of alien, due to how it works. I mean, geeze, it's making your brain hallucinate so that you can chuck a cream pie at a robot dog and melt it, thus opening a door in a building without an alarm going off.

That's messed up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Ixal]

And I still need to sit down and listen to the podcast, but as presented it sounds like something of a questionable idea - it's just one of those things in cyberpunk that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

The matrix is in part 2.
Basically they wanted to make the corps more oppressive even in the matrix and I guess shorten the time matrix runs take (they didn't say it explicitly, but there were hits of that. Or my tired mind is making things up).
What was mentioned (twice I think) was the race against the clock thing.

Also, remember that the Matrix isn't the Internet. It works differently. 4th ed used a lot of real-world design to make them similar, so more players could understand it, but, the whole thing's designed in a fashion that's kind of alien, due to how it works. I mean, geeze, it's making your brain hallucinate so that you can chuck a cream pie at a robot dog and melt it, thus opening a door in a building without an alarm going off.

That's messed up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That was also mentioned in the podcast. The matrix will not work like a real network/like real computers and that people who know how computers work have to suspend their disbelieve on that. Here, style and vision was more important than how technology works in reality.

[Bull]

Something that Mark mentions in the interview, and it's 100% true.

WHen we sat down to write the new Matrix, one thing that was decided early: THis is a fictional construct, and real world computing has very little bearing on it. It's not designed to be realistic. It's designed to facilitate gameplay and to allow for good stories.

So for future reference, anyone who says anything even close to "Well in real life we can do x...", their comments or arguments are automatically invalidated as far as I'm concerned.

Bull

[CanRay]

So for future reference, anyone who says anything even close to "Well in real life we can do x...", their comments or arguments are automatically invalidated as far as I'm concerned.

Bull

Are you purposefully trying to find reasons to beat me with my own cane?

[Bull]

Are you purposefully trying to find reasons to beat me with my own cane?

YOu know better, CanRay. You know exactly what we're doing with SR5, so pipe down (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And really, like I need a reason at this point.Sim Dreams alone provides all the excuses I need. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Aaron]

Something that Mark mentions in the interview, and it's 100% true.

WHen we sat down to write the new Matrix, one thing that was decided early: THis is a fictional construct, and real world computing has very little bearing on it. It's not designed to be realistic. It's designed to facilitate gameplay and to allow for good stories.

So for future reference, anyone who says anything even close to "Well in real life we can do x...", their comments or arguments are automatically invalidated as far as I'm concerned.

Bull

We did (and still do) prioritize playability over realism, but we did a lot of work to keep it all plausible. Abstracting the rules and doing that other thing we did that I'm not sure I can mention yet made it a lot easier to keep it plausible and playable.

So some comparison to real life will be fair, I think.

[Sengir]

-Commlinks will still exist, but they are now the "legal" devices for the Matrix. They have now been specifically disabled so that you CANNOT try to hack with them, no matter what you do, no ifs ands or buts.

-Cyberdecks are completely illegal to own and use, and they are devices that deckers had to have cobbled together and are built from scratch. So yeah, don't go strolling around with that thing out in public.

That was already pretty clear: Commlinks will be what used to be called cyberterminals, namely the devices for the general public, and decks will be what decks used to be: commlinks/terminals illegally modified with stealth chips which do not leave the legally mandated datatrail. Thus, the illegal hardware which became illegal software in 4th becomes hardware again.

@Bull:

WHen we sat down to write the new Matrix, one thing that was decided early: THis is a fictional construct, and real world computing has very little bearing on it. It's not designed to be realistic. It's designed to facilitate gameplay and to allow for good stories.

There is a difference between "not possible in real life" and "completely against all logic". A worldwide scatternet with arbitrary bandwidth and no noticeable latency is the former, that the anarchists and malcontents in the Barrens abandon this tech and happily submit to the corporate yoke would be a clear case of the latter.

[hermit]

That was already pretty clear: Commlinks will be what used to be called cyberterminals, namely the devices for the general public, and decks will be what decks used to be: commlinks/terminals illegally modified with stealth chips which do not leave the legally mandated datatrail. Thus, the illegal hardware which became illegal software in 4th becomes hardware again.

I wonder if decks will be all-custom underground-y Deckmeister jobs now or they also bring back the (kind of odd, given their alleged massive illegality) megacorp produced high end massive cost cyberdecks.

[tasti man LH]

The podcast makes it sounds like it's going to be the former; of course, I don't see why there can't be a black market for pre-made cyberdecks that a prospective decker can go to if they don't have the time/resources to build one themselves.

[Fatum]

So for future reference, anyone who says anything even close to "Well in real life we can do x...", their comments or arguments are automatically invalidated as far as I'm concerned.

RPG rulesystems are written to help consistently simulate worlds with the laws of physics similar to our own, other than in explicitly stated internally consistent exceptions (like, say, the existence of magic in SR).
If a rulesystem only describes some specifically taken cases, and the rest of the possibilities you can think of are thrown out as simply never possible, it is worthless, because it can't be used for its goal.

[hermit]

I don't see why there can't be a black market for pre-made cyberdecks

I don't see why there can be a market for pre-made cyberdecks by large brands - GOD isn't a sufficient customer base, at least not for the different powered models like in old editions (raning from a starter deck to a high-end high-karma deck). I'd much prefer the all-deckmeister approach, it is much more internally consistent with what the podcast says.

So for future reference, anyone who says anything even close to "Well in real life we can do x...", their comments or arguments are automatically invalidated as far as I'm concerned.

Are you referring only to the Matrix or the world at large? And what about in-world consistency? ("If I can buy a Fairlight Excalibur that is small enough to fit into my crainium, why does it weigh 5 kg when not a skull-deck?")

[Aaron]

I wonder if decks will be all-custom underground-y Deckmeister jobs now or they also bring back the (kind of odd, given their alleged massive illegality) megacorp produced high end massive cost cyberdecks.

Somebody's got to make decks for security spiders and GOD operatives, I imagine.

[Bull]

1) "Corp Produced Decks" exist because corporations need Deckers too. They don't sell them in stores. But they need to arm their own people with the same tools the hackers are using.

2) In-World consitancy is very important. And I'm not saying that there will never be any real world parallels. There certainly are. But the Matrix is designed as a game-world model of the internet, or any computer system as it exists today. It's a unique thing.

Bull

[_Pax._]

So for future reference, anyone who says anything even close to "Well in real life we can do x...", their comments or arguments are automatically invalidated as far as I'm concerned.

Hmm, no, can't agree with you here, Bull. I'd say it depends on how and why someone brings up "in real life we can ____".

If they're asking, in essence: "how difficult would it be to model that in the game, and stay playable?" .... I don't see a problem with it.

An argument cannot be rendered invalid just because it contains a particular phrase.