Shadowrun 5 & a lot more in 2013! Options

[Larsine]

There has always been characters that been lost between editions.

I had a human martial artist, with adept powers, high attributes, medium skills and low resources.

He was first created under SR1 rules with The Grimoire rules added.

It was no problem converting him to SR2, and I could even re-created him and it would essential become the same character. He retired before 3rd edition was published, but he could be created under SR3 and would be the same character.

But when SR4 was published it was impossible to re-create him. The restraint that you could not use more than 200 points on attributes made it impossible to start with the high attributes that you could start with under SR1-3. So does that make SR4 a bad system, just because them won't let me make the character I could make in previous editions?

So maybe your cyber-face will be less effective under SR5, but what about all the other types of characters? Play something else and get on with having fun roleplaying, instead of rollplaying.

[ElFenrir]

So maybe your cyber-face will be less effective under SR5, but what about all the other types of characters? Play something else and get on with having fun roleplaying, instead of rollplaying.

Where did 'rollplaying' come into this? There's a big difference between 'being able to play a concept somewhat useful to the team that I really like' and 'JUST playing for the numbers'

If I had wanted to optimize, I would not have been a sam/face mix in the first place and instead optimized for one or the other. If i wanted to Optimize I'd have dumped strength for every
character instead of actually 'wasting' points on it. If I'd have wanted to optimize I definitely wouldn't have played a Bear shifter Mystic Adept for a character, whose points were split in between and whose combat pools were lowered due to his natural low Agility cap. There's a million in one concepts I would have done instead of some of my favorites if I wanted to just plain 'rollplay.' My method is generally pick a concept I like, do SOME numbers playing to get that concept solid and workable, and then run with that, not milk every die in the world out. And I too have retired characters between editions, of course. But I also managed to keep a favorite going from here to there(a couple from 2 to 3, and I managed to get one or two going from 3 to 4 as well). Not all, but it's always *nice* to do it.

Sorry if I sounded snappy, but the term 'Rollplay' is on my pet peeve list of phrases that get utterly overused/misused. I think it's a term that CAN be used but it gets used way too much, too often, for the wrong things. Just because someone is concerned about a concept, and may actually want to play certain concepts, does not mean they are the textbook definition of a 'rollplayer' who only cares about numbers. (I don't think you were quite implying that, but again, I don't think what I was speaking of is 'rollplaying.' It's 'Seeing if I can take some favorite concepts and still manage to have them effective for their chosen job.')

Edit: It may be that I just have a different definition of 'rollplaying.' For me, it's when a person completely guts and discombobulates a concept for the sole purpose of squeezing out more dice.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sorry, Aaron got his first post in before mine and I hadn't quoted the post I was responding to. Human Barbie Doll is what he looked up.

Thanks for the parameters.
Wow, That is somewhat Distrubing...

[_Pax._]

So maybe your cyber-face will be less effective under SR5, but what about all the other types of characters? Play something else and get on with having fun roleplaying, instead of rollplaying.

...excuse me?

Just because the mechanics are important to someone, does not mean they are rollplaying.

::angry::

[Wakshaani]

Thanks for the parameters.
Wow, That is somewhat Distrubing...

AYup. Her ANime friend is mostly done with make-up, but Human Barbie is a lot like the "Real Catgirl" from a few years ago who went heavy on the plastic surgery.

Back to SR5, Strength is given more importance. It being well known as the go-to dumpstat for years bugged me a lot, and it looks like I wasn't the only one, which is good. "Team Big Guy" is a classic role that sort of vanished over the years, which was sad. Sometimes, you just need a guy who can scoop up a wounded teammate, kick open a door, and one-punch a security guard on the way out. That's just *cool*.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Back to SR5, Strength is given more importance. It being well known as the go-to dumpstat for years bugged me a lot, and it looks like I wasn't the only one, which is good. "Team Big Guy" is a classic role that sort of vanished over the years, which was sad. Sometimes, you just need a guy who can scoop up a wounded teammate, kick open a door, and one-punch a security guard on the way out. That's just *cool*.

Got a Troll that does just that. Started in 3rd Edition and Jumped the Shark to 4th Edition. He is quite the bruiser.
Got an Oni that does that too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[ElFenrir]

AYup. Her ANime friend is mostly done with make-up, but Human Barbie is a lot like the "Real Catgirl" from a few years ago who went heavy on the plastic surgery.

Back to SR5, Strength is given more importance. It being well known as the go-to dumpstat for years bugged me a lot, and it looks like I wasn't the only one, which is good. "Team Big Guy" is a classic role that sort of vanished over the years, which was sad. Sometimes, you just need a guy who can scoop up a wounded teammate, kick open a door, and one-punch a security guard on the way out. That's just *cool*.

There's a Human Ken Doll around as well. He's not QUITE to the extent of Human Barbie but he's pretty unsettling.

As for the Strength stat, hell, that's my Bear shifter dude and the human-looking(well, in the face-he still has horns and is over ten feet tall) Fomori. I love playing the big dude, I just sucked up the inherent disadvantage of it this time around. They basically exist to kick down doors and carry a lot of stuff for their team-mates(and the Bear shifter also exists to give answers to questions like if a team-mate asks 'Does a bear s&% in the woods?' 'Well, actually, I prefer my restroom with a magazine.')

Now, at the same time-I wouldn't want to see Strength end up back where it was in SR3. It was far too important there, I felt-it's link to melee combat was a bit too strong-as I said, I like the option of being an equally good strong OR fast fighter(or balanced, hell) because people have different tastes. My other buddy at the table likes the 'fragile speedster' melee types for example. If it can get a happy medium between SR3 and SR4 for the Strength stat, I think that would be about perfect. In my book, a happy medium is 'Not punished for wanting to focus on the stat, but ALSO not punished for NOT wanting to make the stat your main focus.)

Btw-Logic needs love as well, being the *second* dumpstat. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Btw-Logic needs love as well, being the *second* dumpstat. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Really? Logic has a ton of skills attached to it, and in SR4A, at least, if you use the optional rule for Hacking (Skill + Attribute, Cap by Program) it is necessary for a hacker to do his job well. Rarely do I see the Logic Stat just "Dumped." In fact, I see Charisma dumped more often than Strength is. Though that is likely play style, more than anything.

[ElFenrir]

Different places are different-I actually see Logic dumped a bit more than Charisma(but neither as much as Strength.) I mean I guess in the end, those are the 3 stats I see dumped more often than the rest, usually in order of Strength>Logic>Charisma, though I imagine some places see it other ways around. (For some reason some folks who I've played with actually LIKE the Charisma stat and actually try not to 'dump' it if at all possible, which I know other tables have as their big dumpstat.)

[Aaron]

I think there's always going to be an obvious dump stat for each character. Thog the Troll Smasher isn't going to need a lot of Logic, while Wizzy the Wizard doesn't always have much use for Strength. And when the system encourages specializing (which I think it does), that's definitely going to happen. But I think it's also important to have a consequence for dumping any given stat, so that there isn't an obvious dump stat that everybody takes.

[ElFenrir]

The latter part is more what I'm speaking of. I think it's perfectly fine to have a character who doesn't need one stat as much(or perhaps as a part of the character), but it's just the line between making a stat so crippling to dump it discourages certain concepts(like a Superbrain character with little in the way of Charisma), but at the same time avoiding making a stat an obvious dump for MOST concepts.

[Fatum]

I think there's always going to be an obvious dump stat for each character. Thog the Troll Smasher isn't going to need a lot of Logic, while Wizzy the Wizard doesn't always have much use for Strength.

It's all about the usefulness across the concepts field. Whoever you're making, you want high Agility and Reaction, and preferably Willpower and Body as well. Everything else is useful only to a handful of archetypes, while those are useful pretty universally.

[Ixal]

It's all about the usefulness across the concepts field. Whoever you're making, you want high Agility and Reaction, and preferably Willpower and Body as well. Everything else is useful only to a handful of archetypes, while those are useful pretty universally.

Which is why I hope those are stats do not increase limits by much.

[ElFenrir]

Thing is-it's going to be tough to deflate the value of Body, Reaction, and Willpower. Those stats keep you alive. . People like to stay alive, and depending on how lethal the game is at the table(regardless of what the book lethality is-I mean for example, we play a more 'cinematic' game that isn't terribly lethal if we aren't total idiots), but still, The Big Three as I call them pretty much have a lot of baked-in value.

Yes, being smart keeps you alive too, but it's a pen and paper game at a table(or wherever), and sometime, somewhere, no matter how smart you are, you're going to have to likely roll dice to stay alive. Dice are finicky little )&"¤(/& who don't always do what you need them to at the moment, so people-unless they're playing a very specific concept that has the character extremely sickly, weak-willed or have the reaction time of a slug-often like to at least tip the odds in their favor.

[RHat]

So maybe your cyber-face will be less effective under SR5, but what about all the other types of characters? Play something else and get on with having fun roleplaying, instead of rollplaying.

Go ahead and show me a roleplayer who likes the idea of their character ceasing to exist for out-of-game reasons.

Seriously, that comment is both inaccurate and out of line.

As to Logic, given that Matrix stuff is moving to Attribute+Skill, it's going to be fine. If Strength contributes substantially to Physical Limit and armour moves to Body+Strength (or some other Strength-involved calculation, perhaps one tying back to Physical Limit), that will do a lot to make it more valuable. Intuition is already made plenty valuable between the new Initiative and the fact that it is a factor in dodging (which will buff Intuition based traditions, perhaps making them the definitive combat mages; personally I'd like that as it suits a character concept I'm playing currently quite nicely). All in all, this would leave attributes pretty nicely balanced - you can use Intuition or Reaction (or both), Strength or Body for armour (or both) witch further benefits from each (higher limit versus being tougher, IE, more damage versus being tougher)...

[Falconer]

Intuition always has been the go to munchkin tradition for combat mages. It's the reason why it's one of my flags for 'munchkin' self-made traditions.

It covers initiative.
It covers defense from astral attacks. (intution + dodge/astral combat).
It defends against physical illusions and is the second stat used to resist most things after willpower.
It covers perception... and perception is critical for any combat type.
It's harder to buff... but if your'e a mage you're probably going to quicken/sustain focus/have a spirit sustain an increase intuition on you anyhow after you get will buffed.

You generally only need 2 or 3 logic anyhow for active foci limits... and you get your free knowledges off intution as well.


So no... it doesn't only just make it the go to combat mage tradition stat now.


I've yet to see if the mage problems are going to be addressed... the single biggest is that for most mages every skill comes down to spellcasting + intuition once you have a spell to replicate the needed skill. (or a spirit/spirit power meaning the second most needed skill is summoning... not necessarily binding).

[RHat]

Spellcasting + Magic, Falconer, not Intuition. And while it is certainly a one-skill for mages, the flipside is that if that were changed (perhaps to a skill for each spell category, with groups being Combat/Counterspelling/Manipulation and Health/Detection/Illusion/Ritual), the other things you need as a mage would have to get less expensive. A lot of SR4A mage builds can't fit anything in, skills wise, save for their magic skills.

And I disagree with your assertion that Intuition is the one true combat mage stat. Given that you can augment your Drain Resistance through Cerebral Booster and still have a decent chunk of Essence left over, Logic traditions can do extremely well for themselves in building combat mages. Similarly, Charisma based traditions get all their extra spirits to work with, potentially acting as a miniature squad in their own right. Intuition seems, in a lot of ways, to be the odd one out (more, perhaps, for streams than for traditions), because while it does augment Initiative, a great many people don't care all that much about Astral Combat in general, and the perception bonus is maybe a few dice - a hit, or at best 2. Perception bonuses are easy enough to get, anyways.

[Falconer]

What can I say I had intuition on the brain...


For any primary combatant... initiative is of prime importance. Going before the street sam is the difference between him filling you full of lead and you bolting him down. Even against other casters... the dice are loaded in favor of the offense. For any powergamed character in this game of eggshells w/ sledgehammers... attacking first is attacking last generally.


A spirit can go from nowhere in sight to right in your face ripping it off astrally before you can do a thing about it.
Astral defense is a mandatory problem for any combat mage. Especially as regards astral combat a mage does not have first strike capability with spells. Winning initiative is no defense against this. (exmple... spirit on the other side of a wall... comes screaming through it on his action at astral speeds). So no, a combat mage cannot get away without any astral combat ability if he wants to be able to effectively fight spirits.


Once again... all those direct combat spells people love for their low drain against living/magical targets... only work if you can see the target. You can't see the target unless you can make the perception/assensing test. Once again... intuition. Same goes for things like avoiding ambushes... assensing/perception intuition.


The only thing going for logic tradition in combat mage is that it's easy to boost logic with cyber or bio. What are you gong to do activate 9 foci at once?! Each of questionable strength....

Charisma again hard to boost... only thing going is it's extra spirit space... Easy to use spirit(s) to cast and maintain increase attribute spells on you to boost drain stats. But it's also extremely expensive... bound spirits cost big $$$$. You're reliant on your spirits to fight for you... because once again... you have limited defense against astral spirits in your face... low initiative on your own... and limited perceptive capabilities in comparison.

But any attribute can be boosted by magic... without sacrificing essence and magic to go with it. So no... drain pools aren't all that much different.


So no, your argument is almost completely baseless and ignores all the important bases for a combat mage.

[Thanee]

...excuse me?

Just because the mechanics are important to someone, does not mean they are rollplaying.

Agreed. It is absolutely possible to roleplay AND keep an eye on the mechanics / build a competent character.

Roleplay does not equal character incompetence. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[_Pax._]

Roleplay does not equal character incompetence. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And the other side of that coin: character competence does not necessarily preclude roleplay.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

For any primary combatant... initiative is of prime importance. Going before the street sam is the difference between him filling you full of lead and you bolting him down. Even against other casters... the dice are loaded in favor of the offense. For any powergamed character in this game of eggshells w/ sledgehammers... attacking first is attacking last generally.

And that is the rub... you talk of powergamed characters, and not everyone plays that way. *shrug*

A spirit can go from nowhere in sight to right in your face ripping it off astrally before you can do a thing about it.
Astral defense is a mandatory problem for any combat mage. Especially as regards astral combat a mage does not have first strike capability with spells. Winning initiative is no defense against this. (exmple... spirit on the other side of a wall... comes screaming through it on his action at astral speeds). So no, a combat mage cannot get away without any astral combat ability if he wants to be able to effectively fight spirits.

Which only matters if you care about Astral Space. Again, not all spellcasters do. Spirits can do nothing to you from Astral Space, if you do not interface with it. They must manifest to have an effect. And guess what, the pass they manifest, THEY DO NOTHING ELSE, and are fodder for EVERYONE in the physical realm until they can act. So, No, Spirits are not a big threat to Mages, unless the Mages are stupid enough to travel Astral Space a lot.

Once again... all those direct combat spells people love for their low drain against living/magical targets... only work if you can see the target. You can't see the target unless you can make the perception/assensing test. Once again... intuition. Same goes for things like avoiding ambushes... assensing/perception intuition.

Perception Rolls for the obvious are not needed. And regardless, Perception Rolls are the easiest to raise. *shrug*

The only thing going for logic tradition in combat mage is that it's easy to boost logic with cyber or bio. What are you gong to do activate 9 foci at once?! Each of questionable strength....

Why are your foci of questionable Strength, exactly? And there is nothing wrong with having many active foci, if that is what is needed at the time. Of course, you won't be too stealthy unless you are a high grade initiate with Extended Masking, but...

Charisma again hard to boost... only thing going is it's extra spirit space... Easy to use spirit(s) to cast and maintain increase attribute spells on you to boost drain stats. But it's also extremely expensive... bound spirits cost big $$$$. You're reliant on your spirits to fight for you... because once again... you have limited defense against astral spirits in your face... low initiative on your own... and limited perceptive capabilities in comparison.

I have seen many a Charisma Tradition Mage, and Few of them rely upon their spirits to fight for them. Not saying it does not happen, just that it does not happen often at our table. There are other things they can be doing.

But any attribute can be boosted by magic... without sacrificing essence and magic to go with it. So no... drain pools aren't all that much different.

So no, your argument is almost completely baseless and ignores all the important bases for a combat mage.

I think that you put too much stock in Intuition as a must have for Mages, Falconer. My experience shows more Logic and Charisma Mages than Intuition Mages. In Fact, Charisma Mages far outstrip the others from my experience, but many of those mages dual-function as Faces, as well, so, again, that may be a play style thing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Rubic]

TL;DR - read his post above mine.

I did rather well with Charisma tradition casters. Elf/Pixie + SuRGE (Metagenetic Improvement CHA), Exceptional Attribute, and Magic boosts. Tell me THAT doesn't give a good drain soak. It also makes you at LEAST a passable face (40 BP spare for Influence SG, 16 BP for Intimidation which should be included imho, and the Empathy Sensor Software for good measure). It's one of the reasons I'm trying to stay away from anything approaching traditional spellcasters with my latest crop of characters.

[Falconer]

So your point TJ is that you completely cede the astral... you're no combat mage if you can't control the astral. Sorry but that's just pure simple... the job of a combat mage is to provide the magical equivalent of air superiority. You don't provide that by not even putting up a fight.

Also contingent with that because assensing is *NOT* the easiest skill to boost. Only mundane perception has a ton of bonuses (and also a ton of penalties... chameleon... camo... sneak suits... and everyone's favorite concealment so effectively you end up with a ton of bonuses offset by a ton of penalties for anyone seriously interested in stealth).

Good luck being a good combat mage when you're not even good at piercing Masking to detect threats. That's another sub-job which requires a serious assensing skill & pool.


You have minimal defense against astral attackers to your self... so your answer is to not control the astral one of the prime jobs of a combat mage.

You ignore the point about initiative altogether.

And yes... what are you packing 5 active strength 2 foci? See my point... if you're using sustaining foci they generally need to be reasonably high force (3-5 or so each). Some like power foci at force 2 work well out of chargen... others like centering & shielding foci again also can work. But generally I find most mages end up with a power focus and two sustaining foci. If they do go for multiples... typically it's a mix of force 2 oddball foci like a weapon focus, centering focus, shielding focus, power focus... none of the others tend to do much. At magic 5... that's 3 force 2 foci & one force 4 sustaining active at once... and it's easy enough to switch off one as a free action when you ready (simple) your weapon foci and activate it (simple) when you need it. Nowhere near the 9 boosted logic will get you... even if you do dumpstat logic to 2 or 3.... that's 2 force 5 foci... or a force 4 and 2 force 3's... so it's simply less variety of foci active at once... but the ones which are active are stronger.



I didn't say the others couldn't fight. Just that when building an optimal 'combat mage'... intuition tends to be the best attribute bar none. And I think I presented a viable argument that makes it far from a weak drain attribute given all the secondary uses intuition ties to. I believe anyone who argues otherwise has only had their GM's play softball with their casters.

You can hide this about not everyone plays 'optimal'... which is fine... but that does not mean that intuition is not a very strong drain attribute already without any other buffing coming in SR5.

[ElFenrir]

My thoughts and experiences with Logic-Intuition-Charisma mages:


-I actually find, due to Cerebral Boosters, that Logic IS pretty much a bangin' stat for a stereotypical 'combat mage' (which I see as a mage who can mix it up in combat with melee, guns, or whatnot as well.) You can, say, purchase a reasonable Logic(4), and boost that up. Now that doesn't mean the drop Intuition, but in this case, if I were to be trying to optimize a mage like this, I'd probably hit up Logic and Intuition 4, boost Logic to 6 with boosters(you could go to 7 if you take Restricted Gear or don't bother with Availability limits at chargen at your table, but 6 is the book-legal), and take a Logic tradition. The 4 intuition is still solid(and if you have a sustaining focus with Reflexes or synaptic boosters-those are costly, yes, but for an optimizing mage they're golden-which a lot of combat mages take anyway, you're pretty much good to go.) Cerebral Boosters are not too expensive themselves, as well as being light on essence.

My Mystic Adept is a Druid-based tradition of Oak, and uses Intuition. It's a 4. He does quite fine with it. I picked the tradition because bear shifter+druid+Oak really seemed to fit nicely.

-Generally, if they want to go the no-ware Combat Mage route, then Intuition at that point becomes indeed probably the likely way to go, though their Drain stats will NOT be as high, unless they want to splash for the 6 intuition, which is unlikely, so they're probably running with a 5. If they go the sustaining focus route for Initiative, either the Logic or the Intuition mage can end up with similar initiatives. Hell, if Logic Mage decides to splash for the natural 5 after all, his main stat is now a 7.

-Charisma is generally used for people who want to maximize their Spirits and/or Astral Combat. Thing is, the Logic or Intuition mages above are unlikely to even bother with this past something like a 3 to get them by in Astral Combat, if they don't want to sacrifice their Physical attributes(which, for a combat mage, they may actually want some okay scores of.)

-For a flat pew pew casty mage who doesn't care much for combat, I still think Logic is the best bet for them if they go cyber, or Intuition if not, unless, again, they want the Charisma goodies.

I don't know-I just don't see Intuition as THAT much *obviously* better, unless it's a very specific situation of a mage who A. Doesn't much care for having a spirit army, and B. Doesn't want any cyber. In the event of the mage, regardless of 'pewpew' or 'both physical and spell stuff', who wants cyber, Logic's going to win out for Drain, though they won't *drop* intuition. (Again, they can actually save points here-they can invest in the 4 logic and get a 6 Drain Stat out of it.) So even if it's hypothetically a tiny bit better-it's not THAT much so, I don't feel. Going early on is important-but here's the catch. 1 point of Intuition is not going to break it. Can Initiative order be 1 point different? Sure it can. But if a mage REALLY wants to go first, they're going to be loading up on that Sustaining Focus with Level 3 Reflexes to get the edge there I think instead of stacking Intuition, or they'd be getting more out of it.

Edit: I also wanted to make clear I don't think Intuition is a WEAK Drain Stat, and I don't know many people who dump the stat anyway regardless if they're playing a Logic and Charisma mage, but that's probably why I feel this way. Even Logic/Charisma mages I've seen are packing a least a 4 in the stat anyway. Yes, in theory, an Intuition mage can dump Logic, where a Logic mage doesn't necessarily want to dump Intuition, but the Logic mage can buy a reasonable Logic skill and then further boost it.

[Falconer]

Elfenrir:
When it comes to astral combat... it's not so much the ability to engage in it offensively. Cha3 is generally good for 3 strong bound spirits. Most characters don't even care about their ability to do astral combat damage... since a manabolt in most cases works far better than trying to pimp slap a spirit or ward.

The primary concern for mages in astral combat is defense... not getting their face ripped off by opposing spirits. So they can survive one round to nuke the spirit with a spell. Most players are right... their spells are their primary offense... the problem is that pure offense gets you killed when you have no defense and the other side can hit you first.


I also tend to roll on the assumption that generally after a few months every mage is going to have a way to max out both their willpower and their drain stat. A favorite trick for this is a spirit of man with increase wil & increase int... have the spirit cast both at force 6... you've softmaxed both at 5 most likely... 4 successes on 12 dice... and you've maxed both out. (possession types have an easier path to power... possess themselves with a force 9 spirit and laugh as it's attributes replace theirs... especially if they've boosted their logic prior to possession). Spirit sustains the spell... you're golden for two services... you leave your health sustaining focus free to pack an increase ref.


As far as the last... I tend to find that most of my chars in SR4 have either dumped logic or they've dumped intuition but not both. Either the character is book smart with a lot of knowledge skills... or intuitive smart with a lot of street knowledge type skills for the free knowledges.

Then there is as always... place for the 'Mungo smart' chars as well :). Did you hear an ice cream truck?