Shadowrun 5 & a lot more in 2013! Options

[Bull]

Oh O.o
Weak Sauce!
SR3 had multiple Specialisations, and then you could concentrate.
For Example:
Heavy Pistol/SS(Ruger Super Warhawk) 5/7(9)

Actually, 3rd ed didn't have Concentrations. You're thinking SR1/2.

[Fatum]

Could we discuss fluff for a moment?
What do you think will happen to the megacorp roster in the new edition?

So far the (obvious) trends I see:
Ares is losing its AAA status after producing a bad rifle (nevermind that an AAA status has nothing to do with profitability and Renraku did not lose it after Arcology Lockdown even) and falling apart (?) due to a bug infestation.
The japanacorps are somehow presenting an even more unified front to the world (despite long since going as far as helping each other against hostile takeover attempts by buying stock and then reselling it back to the corp).
Renraku is an information-gathering corp now (and what that means for Renraku of all people we're yet to see).
MCT is deep into making computers out of human brains.
At least the Marsian part of Evo is infected by the newest nanite snatchers.
Lofwyr is more powerful than he has ever been, and that means things go well for SK, the NEEC, and GeMiTo in particular.

Anything I'm forgetting?

[phlapjack77]

Sweet. Because adepts needed yet another way to outpace samurai.

" If run rewards are going to take two forms, nuyen and Karma–and they are–then adepts need to have a wealth of options for their nuyen as well as their Karma. They have some, of course, from new guns to weapon modifications to armor and what not, but these options don’t pack the same punch as, say, a street samurai boosting up from wired reflexes 2 to wired reflexes 3 and getting that burst of blinding speed."

Of course they don't pack the same punch, Samurai trade that out for permanent, unrecoverable essence loss and a maximum cap of cyberware that they can ever have, as opposed to just initiating when they want more shinies.

Yeah, this does seem to be fixing the wrong problems. What's that quote from Draco18s again?

Adepts have some powers that are too expensive for what they give, and one of their speciality niches (CC) could use a makeover. But this whole thing about their options not having the same punch as a sam upgrading to wired 3...it's either disingenuous or they totally missed the point.

[RHat]

Yeah, this does seem to be fixing the wrong problems. What's that quote from Draco18s again?

Adepts have some powers that are too expensive for what they give, and one of their speciality niches (CC) could use a makeover. But this whole thing about their options not having the same punch as a sam upgrading to wired 3...it's either disingenuous or they totally missed the point.

Well, the design implications of WR3 versus IR3 are a little more complicated than a blog entry can get into. Still, you're missing the point - they're talking about how the things adepts get through NUYEN have a much lesser impact.

And with the increase to skill caps and the way they've been talking about advancing to a skill cap (that it would require serious dedication), you can assume that sam's are gonna have plenty to spend Karma on for some time. So, if Sams need both Karma and Nuyen in decent measure now, shouldn't the same apply to adepts?

I find it funny that you'll have people vehemently arguing both that adepts are underpowered and that they're overpowered. I've yet to see a truly overpowered adept build, because typically by the time you might consider them so, they're so deeply specialized that there's glaring weaknesses to them.

[tasti man LH]

Well on one hand, it sounds like magic (both for magicians and adepts) are going to have any major changes to them.

On the other hand, still curious if the whole "Everything has a Price" will also involve magic in some way, so I'm still waiting on that.

[Wakshaani]

Could we discuss fluff for a moment?
What do you think will happen to the megacorp roster in the new edition?

So far the (obvious) trends I see:
Ares is losing its AAA status after producing a bad rifle (nevermind that an AAA status has nothing to do with profitability and Renraku did not lose it after Arcology Lockdown even) and falling apart (?) due to a bug infestation.

Ares has taken some hits, but as noted, bigger hits than this hit Renraku and they came back. Ares is also one of the Founding Fathers of the COrporate Court and, as such, has a seat reserved. As long as they have that, they remain AAA, no matter what.

The japanacorps are somehow presenting an even more unified front to the world (despite long since going as far as helping each other against hostile takeover attempts by buying stock and then reselling it back to the corp).
Renraku is an information-gathering corp now (and what that means for Renraku of all people we're yet to see).
MCT is deep into making computers out of human brains.

More than being unified, they're motivated. They spent nearly 15 years focused on rebuilding Japan after the quakes and, in the process, had to abandon many oversees projects and 'empire'. In that time, other corporations stepped up and took center stage. Now, they've come out of a recession and are looking to mend their pride by retaking their place atop the pyramid.

Lofwyr is more powerful than he has ever been, and that means things go well for SK, the NEEC, and GeMiTo in particular.

Anything I'm forgetting?

Yes and no on Lofwyr. The Dragon War cost him a lot, not the least of which was his position as Loremaster. His corporation is poised, but is he in a place to pull the trigger?

As for the Megas as a whole, one of the AAA-rated corps will get munched due to the MMORPG... the players get to decide which one goes down. I have no clue which one they'll jump on.

You're forgetting about Matrix 3.0, the Black Lodge, Hot Texas, several political situations... a few things.

But I always like to keep on eye on the financial pages, so, I'm biased. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Aaron]

Though I'd imagine the tattooed adept will have problems with wards that a non-inked wouldn't, for the inverse reasoning.

Nah, just deactivate the focus before walking through. Or, if you don't notice the ward, your focus might be deactivated for you.

[Ixal]

I don't see Ares losing its AAA spot, at least not in the short term. Its featured too prominently on the SR5 cover for that.
And I don't really see how Lofwyr and S-K are more powerful than ever.
Aztechnology will be interesting. They won a string of victories, but now are stretched thin.

[Sengir]

the biowire echo allows them to make complex forms of active skills (which can be threaded beyond a skill value of 8 if done properly).

Nope, emulated skillsofts are restricted to the rating of the original skillsoft.

[phlapjack77]

Well, the design implications of WR3 versus IR3 are a little more complicated than a blog entry can get into. Still, you're missing the point - they're talking about how the things adepts get through NUYEN have a much lesser impact.

And with the increase to skill caps and the way they've been talking about advancing to a skill cap (that it would require serious dedication), you can assume that sam's are gonna have plenty to spend Karma on for some time. So, if Sams need both Karma and Nuyen in decent measure now, shouldn't the same apply to adepts?

I find it funny that you'll have people vehemently arguing both that adepts are underpowered and that they're overpowered. I've yet to see a truly overpowered adept build, because typically by the time you might consider them so, they're so deeply specialized that there's glaring weaknesses to them.

I don't think I'm missing the point at all - I perfectly understand that they're talking about the nuyen thing. I think you're missing the point that there's plenty available already for adepts to spend their nuyen on, and just because a particular player might choose not to spend it on cyber / bio (although they definitely can, and it makes for a very effective build), it doesn't mean the adept needs other avenues to spend money on. They're there already. Vehicles / gear / foci / contacts / safehouses.

If you'll look at my point in my previous post, that you seem to have missed - they're fixing the wrong problems. Adept problems are to do with power costs and CC effectiveness (among other problems).

[bannockburn]

One of those problems is that they have nothing that corresponds to their specialty to spend money on.
Sure, I can buy my adept a life-long luxury lifestyle. Or a pimped out car (Actually: I did that). But none of that really helps him with hitting people better in the face.

Adepts are, without optional rules, as Pax stated, not in a really good place. Neither Karma- nor Nuyen-wise. Buy a rating 6 weapon focus? What for? He's an unarmed adept. And it costs karma out the wazoo. Or he's a face adept? Why buy a weapon focus at all? The list goes on.
And it's nice to see that people have realized that and want to offer something to remedy that situation.

[_Pax._]

Yeah, most of my Adept builds aren't CC specialists at all.

Hacker-Adept, Rigger-Adept, Face-Adept. (The first two can burn money on specialty-enhancing gear, at least.)

But not the "Bruce Lee with Magic" CC-Adept that the archetype was always intended to be.

...

Not that SR4 is alone in Adepts having issues, mind. They've been the red-headed stepchildren since 1E.

[Tashiro]

Let's see:
Mages: Karma Dump for Spells / Extra Skills / Initiation / Foci / Magic Attribute, Nuyen Dump on Foci (maybe)
Street Samurai: Karma Dump for Skills / Attributes, Nuyen Dump on Cyberware / Weapons
Adepts: Karma Dump for Magic Attribute / Initiation / Skills / Attributes, Nuyen Dump on Weapon Foci, maybe Weapons.

The thing is, Street Sam dump lots into cyberware (and getting it repaired when they glitch or get shot to hell), and on ammunition and weapons. Mages dump their nuyen into foci, which are fairly expensive, and they dump their karma into bonding these things. Mages are a huge karma sink.

Adepts, not so much. They have Initiation for their Karma, and are a bit more skill-heavy than mages (who have 1-5 more skills to buy, but their nuyen situation isn't so bad. They don't need to spend thousands or hundreds of thousands on cyberware, they're not spending thousands or hundreds of thousands on foci, unless they want a really good weapon foci -- so where's their nuyen going? The karma thing's not too bad - they need to spend less on skills than mages, and probably are on par (or less) than with street samurai. That leaves... well, attributes.

This gets horribly worse if you're going mystic adept, which is perhaps the most underpowered archetype in the game ... karma sink for magic, underpowered adept, and cyberware would cripple you in an instant.

[_Pax._]

Let's see:
Mages: Karma Dump for Spells / Extra Skills / Initiation / Foci / Magic Attribute, Nuyen Dump on Foci (maybe)
Street Samurai: Karma Dump for Skills / Attributes, Nuyen Dump on Cyberware / Weapons
Adepts: Karma Dump for Magic Attribute / Initiation / Skills / Attributes, Nuyen Dump on Weapon Foci, maybe Weapons.

Not unarmed Adepts. There's no applicable or comparable place for them to spend that money.

Also, even a weapon focus pales by comparison, pricewise, with cyberware.

[RHat]

I don't think I'm missing the point at all - I perfectly understand that they're talking about the nuyen thing. I think you're missing the point that there's plenty available already for adepts to spend their nuyen on, and just because a particular player might choose not to spend it on cyber / bio (although they definitely can, and it makes for a very effective build), it doesn't mean the adept needs other avenues to spend money on. They're there already. Vehicles / gear / foci / contacts / safehouses.

If you'll look at my point in my previous post, that you seem to have missed - they're fixing the wrong problems. Adept problems are to do with power costs and CC effectiveness (among other problems).

So, the design should ignore pure adepts?

If the things that make augmented adepts strictly better were fixed, then the problem WOULD be apparent to you. And, again, if the Sam gets more to spend Karma on, why SHOULDN'T the Adept get more to spend nuyen on?

[phlapjack77]

So, the design should ignore pure adepts?

If the things that make augmented adepts strictly better were fixed, then the problem WOULD be apparent to you. And, again, if the Sam gets more to spend Karma on, why SHOULDN'T the Adept get more to spend nuyen on?

What does the sam get more of to spend Karma on? Higher skill caps are available to everybody, not just sams.

[RHat]

What does the sam get more of to spend Karma on? Higher skill caps are available to everybody, not just sams.

He has more then he currently does to spend his Karma on. Also, the sam is more likely to have Karma AVAILABLE to spend on skills, as its his secondary asset.

[phlapjack77]

So, the design should ignore pure adepts?

I don't see where I said that at all. Again, there's plenty to spend nuyen on for the pure adept. And I think being a pure adept would mean understanding that you're choosing to limit your character in certain ways. It's not the devs responsibility to take away all of the downsides inherit in choosing to forego cyber.

He has more then he currently does to spend his Karma on. Also, the sam is more likely to have Karma AVAILABLE to spend on skills, as its his secondary asset.

The skill cap wasn't targeted at JUST sams, it's available for everybody. Inventing new items just for adepts to fix the "problem" (as stated in the blog post) seems like they're fixing the wrong problem. Does the karma-for-nuyen thing not hold anymore?

But look - this discussion of ours is again swinging to the extremes. I simply don't like this idea as presented. It's not the worst idea ever, I'll admit. Not even particularly bad as these things go. It's that I'd rather they did other things to "fix" adepts.

[RHat]

I don't see where I said that at all. Again, there's plenty to spend nuyen on for the pure adept. And I think being a pure adept would mean understanding that you're choosing to limit your character in certain ways. It's not the devs responsibility to take away all of the downsides inherit in choosing to forego cyber.

It is, however, poor design if the general case adept without cyber is strictly worse than the same adept with some cyber and a few less powers.

Part of the argument, here, is that I read this to indicate that they may be trying to lessen the Karma/nuyen usage disparity. Adepts are, legitimately, not the worst case for that. For that, we should look at technomancers - especially non-rigger 'mancers. They can find things to spend money on, sure, but they have nearly no need for it.

[_Pax._]

Again, there's plenty to spend nuyen on for the pure adept.

Like what, exactly?

And I think being a pure adept would mean understanding that you're choosing to limit your character in certain ways.

Say what? "Playing this basic archetype, is kinda gimping yourself" ...?!?

[ShadowDragon8685]

One thing that bugged me in SR4 was that there were no skills to spend your Karma on that would make your character better at rockin' out. Or, theoretically, any other sort of performance, such as violin or dubstep or sex, but let's be honest; the only ones that players are going to (or should) spend money on are sex and rock.


This is goddamn Shadowrun, damnit. The mechanics need to support the players being pink mohawk rockers.

[Tashiro]

Basically, it should go like this - though mind, I'm pulling strict numbers out of my butt:

Mage: 75% Karma, 25% Nuyen
Sam: 25% Karma, 75% Nuyen
Adept: 50% Karma, 50% Nuyen

This is, optimally, a 'forced expenditure' to compete. A mage blows heavy karma on what makes them awesome, but doesn't need to spend a lot on gear. A sam goes the other way, blowing gobs of stuff on gear, but doesn't have a lot in the name of 'karma sinks' (like.... anything, really). An adept should be walking the middle line, needing to spend about equal measures on karma sinks and on nuyen sinks.

And by 'sink' I mean, 'stuff that doesn't raise abilities or skills'. I consider martial arts to be the mundane person's karma sink - you get some small benefits, and it costs at least a not insignificant piece of karma to get them.

[Tashiro]

Does the karma-for-nuyen thing not hold anymore?

Not in 4E that I saw.

[Tashiro]

One thing that bugged me in SR4 was that there were no skills to spend your Karma on that would make your character better at rockin' out. Or, theoretically, any other sort of performance, such as violin or dubstep or sex, but let's be honest; the only ones that players are going to (or should) spend money on are sex and rock.


This is goddamn Shadowrun, damnit. The mechanics need to support the players being pink mohawk rockers.

>.< My brain hurts just thinking about that.
However, that being said, yeah, I did want to see some musical talent-based skills in the game. And for things like dance, cooking, etc. Sure, you can get them as knowledge skills - but I see that as the 'theory of the art' rather than 'performance of the art'.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

One thing that bugged me in SR4 was that there were no skills to spend your Karma on that would make your character better at rockin' out. Or, theoretically, any other sort of performance, such as violin or dubstep or sex, but let's be honest; the only ones that players are going to (or should) spend money on are sex and rock.


This is goddamn Shadowrun, damnit. The mechanics need to support the players being pink mohawk rockers.

Ummmmm...
Art: Synthguitar...
Art: Stage Performance...
Art: Rock and Roll (Goblin Rock, Trog Rock, or whatever other flavor of music you prefer)
Art: Violin...

Sex Specialty for Gymnastics (My personal Favorite)...

Or you could just create Special Active Skills. It is not like they have not been around since 1st Edition, and detailed in every edition's main book. They are described on Page 128 of SR4A.

Special Active Skills
The skill system in Shadowrun is not completely comprehensive, meaning that it is impossible for us to cover every skill imaginable. The skills listed here, however, should cover the vast majority of Active skills that any shadowrunning team may find necessary. Should a gamemaster deem that a new skill is called for and presently unaccounted for by the system, he can allow it in his game. This should be done rarely, however. You must link any new skill allowed in your game with an appropriate attribute, and the gamemaster must decide if it should be grouped with existing skills in a skill group. Gamemasters should also take care not to include new Active skills for a single character or a single effect. A good skill should have at least two specializations and be open to all characters, should they want to use it.