Shadowrun 5 & a lot more in 2013! Options

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

3) The reason why movies never show real hacking is because real hacking takes too much brain-work, and doesn't leave you with anything you can really grab onto.

And because it takes ages, not some secondes-minutes (exept social engineering, or known software flaws)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

In IRL, of course you are correct. Hacking is the art of figuring out 'the other way'.

In our situation though, that doesn't quite apply, for a few reasons;
1) Very few players are computer experts. If I ask your average player how to get into a house, they will come up with a dozen answers very easily. If I ask them how to open a file, they will come up with one, maybe two.

2) Our GMs also aren't computer experts. Very quickly I can put together a long line of jargon that my GM can't understand, because it is pretend. How does a GM deal with a player who claims (or does) know more about the fundamentals of the world than the GM himself? Either the GM says "no it doesn't", he forces a familiar paradigm, or rolls cease to have any meaning.

3) Even among computer people, security is a very nebulous, abstract concept. Programming and hacking and data structures and ACLs and such are complex matters and usually get difficult to visualize very quickly. It's just not good story fodder. The reason why movies never show real hacking is because real hacking takes too much brain-work, and doesn't leave you with anything you can really grab onto.

4) Shadowrun uses Shadowrun's rules and paradigms, and that means the rules tells you how things work. If the rules say "you use a read/write program to open files", the assumption is that the only way to open files is using your read/write program. If that one avenue is blocked because of a failed roll, well sucks to be you.

5) There's really no challenge built into it. You buy the best gear you can, prioritize your targets, and make the dice rolls. Contrast this to B&E; you map out the facility, you think up different plans, play them out in your mind, select the strongest and decide where each person needs to be. Or combat; you're in a gunfight and you make tactical decisions about more combat pool for hitting that sniper, or with-holding it for dodging that spooky guy with the sword. There are choices built into B&E and combat that aren't built into hacking (and to be clear, the choice between the best program or best piece of equipment and the not-best is not a real choice).

6) It's lonely. Hacking focuses on one character. Even when the face is working, everyone else is making perception checks, doing background research, writing wishlists, etc.

So if you change it, hacking needs to be focused on things people can instantly grok (I think the SR1/2 matrix setup was very grokable, if a little simple. SR3 was not.) If you grok it, you can figure out how to 'break' it, and that's hacking.

It needs to be integrated with the team.

It needs to be fun (either because of what you can do, or because of how you can do it).

And yet, in my opinion, all your points are covered by SR4A. It is a fun and fast system, at least at our table. *shrug*
Hell, actual combat takes longer than the hacks do.

[Fatum]

2) Our GMs also aren't computer experts. Very quickly I can put together a long line of jargon that my GM can't understand, because it is pretend. How does a GM deal with a player who claims (or does) know more about the fundamentals of the world than the GM himself? Either the GM says "no it doesn't", he forces a familiar paradigm, or rolls cease to have any meaning.

The same applies to the rest of the aspects of the game. Most GMs and players are not specialists in firearms, combat tactics (especially combat tactics vastly different from what you can read in tactical manuals), economics, corp, govt and international politics, electronics and hundreds of other things that come up in a game.
To be fair, for fantasy it's even worse.

4) Shadowrun uses Shadowrun's rules and paradigms, and that means the rules tells you how things work. If the rules say "you use a read/write program to open files", the assumption is that the only way to open files is using your read/write program. If that one avenue is blocked because of a failed roll, well sucks to be you.

Hate to break it to you, but security-conscious RL design focuses on creating bottlenecks as well. And using SR rules, it's "succeed on this roll or have a major pain in the ass", too.

5) There's really no challenge built into it. You buy the best gear you can, prioritize your targets, and make the dice rolls. Contrast this to B&E; you map out the facility, you think up different plans, play them out in your mind, select the strongest and decide where each person needs to be. Or combat; you're in a gunfight and you make tactical decisions about more combat pool for hitting that sniper, or with-holding it for dodging that spooky guy with the sword. There are choices built into B&E and combat that aren't built into hacking (and to be clear, the choice between the best program or best piece of equipment and the not-best is not a real choice).

Have to agree here. Unwired tried to help with that by giving a hacker more options, but the basic algorithm stays the same.

6) It's lonely. Hacking focuses on one character. Even when the face is working, everyone else is making perception checks, doing background research, writing wishlists, etc.

I agree that hacking tends to become a single player side-game, but in what comes to other characters finding something to do, it's not any different from any other character hogging the spotlight for a while, be it a rigger in a chase scene or a mechanic constructing something, etc.

It needs to be integrated with the team. It needs to be fun (either because of what you can do, or because of how you can do it).

Frankly, that sounds like "it needs to be fun and good and not be boring and bad". I for one can't see any obvious ways to get there - and really, had there been any, they would've been used in the First Edition.

[Draco18s]

In IRL, of course you are correct. Hacking is the art of figuring out 'the other way'.

In our situation though, that doesn't quite apply, for a few reasons;
[lots of stuff]

Thank you!
I wasn't able to articulate...things and so said nothing. But that, right there, is the problem.

(FYI: I'm a computer programer and I know jack-shit about hacking and computer security*)

*I firmly believe that computers are magic and that programming is just the casting of a spell. Because nothing else makes sense any more.**
**Had an issue a few months back where my browser would lock up loading a very specific website. In trying to figure out why and solve the problem, more sites started causing problems, and then the computer crashed. When it rebooted, the initial problem had gone away. Best guess is that a chunk of RAM wasn't freeing properly.

[_Pax._]

*I firmly believe that computers are magic and that programming is just the casting of a spell. Because nothing else makes sense any more.**

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you ... a Com-Star Acolyte. (Or on a bad day, a WOBbly ... *shudder* ...)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Lionhearted]

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" - Clarke's third law.

Only reason we don't think that. Is because we know that someone know how these things work. *shrug*

[Fatum]

Actually, for modern computers, I don't think there's anyone who knows how these things work, from particular transistor to the entire chip or from particular line of code to a working OS.

[Lionhearted]

Computers are magic! it's canon.

[Draco18s]

Actually, for modern computers, I don't think there's anyone who knows how these things work, from particular transistor to the entire chip or from particular line of code to a working OS.

Yup.

Hence my insistence that computer programs are spells and that I am a magician! <|: )

[Grinder]

Where's the difference between Solorun for a decker to a mage going astral?

[Critias]

Where's the difference between Solorun for a decker to a mage going astral?

I think the big complaints comes from the decker having to do so more often than the mage.

[_Pax._]

What Critias said.

Also, pre-SR4, I beleive the timescale for MAtrix actions was significantly different from teh timescale for meatspace events. Something like a 2:1 or 3:1 time compression - IOW, 2 or 3 matrix turns, for every 1 meatspace turn. Whereas, astral or meatspace, 1:1 time relation. Thus, easier to jump back and forth between the two.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Where's the difference between Solorun for a decker to a mage going astral?

There isn't any, but at our table, when a mage (or technomancer) goes on an Astral (Resonance Realms) Quest, the other players play supporting parts in the Quest. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Smirnov]

*They introuce a significant long running foe other than the Mega's. I know the Horrors are out because of Earthdawn being owned by someone else but how about something like the insect spirits?

They can just rename them. As it was with insect. Also, Horrors are already in the setting.

[phlapjack77]

(FYI: I'm a computer programer and I know jack-shit about hacking and computer security*)

*I firmly believe that computers are magic and that programming is just the casting of a spell. Because nothing else makes sense any more.**

x2

So often I fix some computer thing for friends/family, and they ask how I did it. I'm unable to come up with any better explanation other than "magic".

Actually, for modern computers, I don't think there's anyone who knows how these things work, from particular transistor to the entire chip or from particular line of code to a working OS.

I'd nominate Bunnie Huang as a person most likely to have this overarching knowledge.

[ShadowDragon8685]

I think that part of the problem is fundamental to the nature of computing.

If your Street Samurai decides to "back up" the infiltration expert in sneaking up to the guard shack and pooch-screws a stealth roll, it's not instant game over. He might manage to shoot the guard before the guard triggers the alarm. If a camera saw him, it might have a Deus Ex style grace peroid where it watches and analyzes to see if what it saw is authorized or if it was a figment before it sounds the alarm. Even if, worst-case scenario, the alarm goes off, there is always Plan B: Smash, Grab, and Run Like Hell.

The guards can be overcome with heavy weapons, astral security can be handed its ass on a silver platter by the team magician, and if you're lucky, you may manage to Pink Mohawk your way through.

In the Matrix, this just is not so. If you fail a Hacking + Stealth roll versus the system's Firewall + Analyze, it immediately knows you're there. It sounds the alarm immediately. All security spiders in the system are immediately available to kick your ass, all active IC is immediately available to kick your ass. It would be as if the building's entire security forces beamed in from the Enterprise right in front of the gates and rolled for initiative the moment you get spotted trying to break in.

And, of course, if you're capable of overcoming that, the system still has a fallback that you can't beat: it can shut itself down, ejecting you and Dumpshocking you if you were in VR. This would be equivalent to the building radiating a mystical pulse of energy that ejects your whole team from the mission and scrubs the run right then and there because an impenetrable forcefield just went up.



Thing is, I'm not entirely sure this can, or should, be "solved". I certainly don't want the Matrix rules rejiggered so only TMs can do the really good stuff and specializing in hacking as a non-TM is like specializing in Mechanics and Language. The meat hacker deserves to stay relevant.

[Blade]

Where's the difference between Solorun for a decker to a mage going astral?

The hacker does it more often, and, by the rules, has to do a lot of dice rolling (even more if he's a TM).

[Cain]

At least, it's do some dice rolls (flavorless or not), then the rest of the group gets to play again right away - not "come back in two hours".

Two hours of flavorless dice rolls is not an improvement.

Why does the decker/hacker/whoever "dominate in legwork" ...? A lot of the information legwork is going to be needed for, is not the kind that you can find on public or semi-public networks, with a simple Data Search extended roll. Plenty of the kind of information legwork is supposed to be turning up, is not going to be on the matrix at all.

Everyone who has a few contacts of relevant types/backgrounds, can gain information. (One of the most useful contacts any runner can have, IMO, is a Virtual contact with ShadowSEA - or it's equivalent in other regions - precisely because it can potentially drum up ANY kind of information you might want ... if you're willing and able to pay the requisite nuyen for it, and if the dice are kind to you that night.)

Because the opening info is usually public knowledge. Sure, you might set out for the team to follow up on leads, but the decker has to run them down first-- or more often, the team hands the decker a list of information they want, then leave for pizza. What it boils down to is, almost all the information is gathered by the decker, then maybe one or two important leads are chased down by the face.

Deckers are also the most likely to have virtual contacts, which as you point out, are often the most varied and useful. I've never, not in twenty-three years, seen a face take an Etiquette specialization in Matrix... but I've lost count of the decker-types with it.

[_Pax._]

Two hours of flavorless dice rolls is not an improvement.

It is for everyone else at the table.

What you're not getting - or are refusing to seriously address - is this: outside of Hacking, or Astral space stuff, teh Hacker is just as involved in the general RP of each scene as anyone else.

But in prior editions, once the Decker went VR? The game ENDED for every person seated at that table except the Decker and the GM. And it did so for at least an hour, possibly "all of this week's session".

A mage could go Astral for a few minutes' real-time gameplay, maybe making one or two Assensing roles. Then the game would immediately resume for the others at the table. But if the Decker went VR to hack into a system, that was pretty much it for the rest of the group, nine-and-three-quarters times out of ten.

Because the opening info is usually public knowledge.

Bullshit.

What gangs deal what drugs out of which locationin teh barrens? Not on the matrix. Probably not even if you're so suicidal (or overskilled for the job) that you feel confident decking/hacking into the Vice Squad's most-secure database(s).

And that's just the very first thing that pops to mind for me, when thinking "what might be found out, that isn't on the matrix".

If the group isn't looking over their list of contacts thinking "who might know something about this job - the target, the area, the client, whatever", then the players aren't trying hard enough.

If the GM hasn't already figured out which of the player's contacts might or might not have relevant information to provide, or might know someone who does ... then s/he's not doing their job.

Deckers are also the most likely to have virtual contacts, [...]

Really?

So, what are we here on Dumpshock ... all or mostly deckers? Because, you know, this forum? Is a virtual contact. Sure, the Connection rating may not be high; I'd guess a 1, maybe a 2. Magical resources and even Matrix resources are thin on the ground. And it's got a very narrow field of interest. But, nonetheless, it's a virtual contact.

And ShadowSEA, formerly Shadowland? Is for all shadowrunners. And professional Johnsons. And pro fixers, for that matter. Mages, samurai, riggers, faces - oh lord, ESPECIALLY Faces - all are equally likely to be aware of ShadowSEA. Some may not cultivate their presence there (meaning, have it listed as a contact on their sheet). But anyone with, say ... Media Junky, at any level? Might just be a "forum junkie", and that's reason enough for an L1+ contact listing. No decker/hacker archetype required.

(FWIW? I would have Mild Media Junky, and if I were a shadowrunner, I would have a Loyalty 1 contact there. I generally figure ShadowSEA to be a good candidate for Variable Connection rating, by the by. Or ... there's this forum, as I just mentioned. L2, I'd guess, for myself - I'm not a fresh newbie, but I'm also not an instantly-recognisable "bright light" like others - CanRay for example would get an L3 or L4, easily, IMO.

which as you point out, are often the most varied and useful. I've never, not in twenty-three years, seen a face take an Etiquette specialization in Matrix... but I've lost count of the decker-types with it.

Lack of a specialisation, doesn't mean you never go there.

[Cain]

It is for everyone else at the table.

Sometimes for the decker player as well. I've had to make serious changes in the assumed approach.

But in prior editions, once the Decker went VR? The game ENDED for every person seated at that table except the Decker and the GM. And it did so for at least an hour, possibly "all of this week's session".

I have a bigger problem with this under SR4.5 than I ever had under previous editions. Mainly because there is more for the decker to do, they want to do it unless I discourage it.

What gangs deal what drugs out of which locationin teh barrens? Not on the matrix. Probably not even if you're so suicidal (or overskilled for the job) that you feel confident decking/hacking into the Vice Squad's most-secure database(s).

Who needs the most secure, when you can look up recent reports of recent busts? Or better yet, use the matrix to look up people who know?

So, what are we here on Dumpshock ... all or mostly deckers?

I'd personally call us script kiddies. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

But are you serious? If every forum I was on was a virtual contact, I'd be worth at least 500BP. Sorry, but contacts are only those who carry useful information. Your momma isn't a contact, no matter how loyal she might be to you.

And ShadowSEA, formerly Shadowland? Is for all shadowrunners. And professional Johnsons. And pro fixers, for that matter. Mages, samurai, riggers, faces - oh lord, ESPECIALLY Faces - all are equally likely to be aware of ShadowSEA. Some may not cultivate their presence there (meaning, have it listed as a contact on their sheet).

Yeaaaah. You really aren't familiar with Shadowland, are you? Or the decking trials they put people through, to prove they were 1337 enough to join?

Lack of a specialisation, doesn't mean you never go there.

No, but it means it's not as useful to you. Just like most virtual contacts aren't useful for non-deckers.

[Halinn]

I haven't played SR3 (or any earlier editions), but I'm curious. What did deckers do when not breaking into things? Did things just shift between "now the decker can't participate" and "now the non-deckers can't"?

[sk8bcn]

I haven't played SR3 (or any earlier editions), but I'm curious. What did deckers do when not breaking into things? Did things just shift between "now the decker can't participate" and "now the non-deckers can't"?

Honestly, when you investigate, everyone can play. It's nothing related to your profil. And that remains 80% of the game IMO.


Now personnally, if the player is experimented into the game, I let him do what he want. If he's not, I advice the player to pack some bioware along in order to be able to fight as a second class fighter in case of action.

[_Pax._]

Yeaaaah. You really aren't familiar with Shadowland, are you? Or the decking trials they put people through, to prove they were 1337 enough to join?

... explain people like Hatchetman, who were not deckers, yet were regular contributors to teh Shadowtalk in all the books, then ...?

Just like most virtual contacts aren't useful for non-deckers.

I dispute that claim, vehemently.

Just because a network uses the Matrix to stay connected, does not mean that only or mostly deckers have such things, or find them useful.

[_Pax._]

I haven't played SR3 (or any earlier editions), but I'm curious. What did deckers do when not breaking into things? Did things just shift between "now the decker can't participate" and "now the non-deckers can't"?

The way most deckers were built?

Yes, pretty much.

[Stahlseele]

Deckers usually were Dorfs or Squishies, sometimes Fairies.
So, good mental attributes usually made them Face and general Techie for electronics and stuff too.
First Aid and the such were not unusual on their sheets either.
General Legwork and aquisition of gear.