Shadowrun 5 & a lot more in 2013! Options

[Tashiro]

It's a question of gameplay type, not power levels. SR4 lacks any mechanical complexity. I approach the challenge, throw some dice, move on. The mechanical tactics side are consequently pretty thoughtless. Both SR4 and Exalted fall into my 'drunk or lazy' game bin. Not saying they're bad games, but they aren't engaging in the same way. (This of course is ignoring the storytelling aspect, which is a function of the GM, so can't be properly quantified here).

I will let you look up what transhumanism is on your own.

I hope you aren't saying Exalted isn't complex. My wife can't even look at the game engine because you need to make a flowchart too handle charms and combos. I stopped running it because of the hassle trying to keep the different exalted charm sets straight fo the NPCs thatt would be facing the PCs.

[Larsine]

For 90% of PCs, the possibility of working a desk job isn't a choice, either because they're part of the SINless, or because it would violate their basic values.

Or because it would be f*cking boring to roleplay that character.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Or because it would be f*cking boring to roleplay that character.

Indeed... Well said. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[_Pax._]

Definitely well-said.

[Shortstraw]

Not if the desk can fly and has lasers.

[Draco18s]

I'm not questioning that. My point is that it's a false choice. Very few PCs had a point where they said "well, Fuchi's accounting division is hiring. That would be really good. Or I can fill myself with illegal cyberware and hopefully make a 'big score'." For 90% of PCs, the possibility of working a desk job isn't a choice, either because they're part of the SINless, or because it would violate their basic values. That the author sees PCs choosing 'corporate desk job' as a reasonable possibility implies the author and I aren't seeing the same themes and values in the game, and really aren't playing the same game at all.

Man, have I got a story for you.

We had to extract this guy from an archology. Some minor A rating corp.

Anyway, because my character was both a drake and a mystic-adept, and the fact that these qualities are...shall we say, "rare," I saw it as an opportunity to get fucking hired by this company to be the "inside man."

I only vaguely recall details beyond that point--there was a bit of a job interview, I managed to be less-useful than originally expected to the team, etc. etc.

My character saw the corporate life as being actually viable and somewhat regretted the fact that he wasn't going to show up the next day (post-run), because hell, a steady paycheck would have been nice.

[DuckEggBlue Omeg...]

Or because it would be f*cking boring to roleplay that character.

Since arguing semantics seems to be the done thing on these forums (he typed with a light hearted smirk), I would suggest that roleplaying that situation is boring, roleplaying that character thrown into a typical shadowrun type situation can be very interesting.

[All4BigGuns]

Since arguing semantics seems to be the done thing on these forums (he typed with a light hearted smirk), I would suggest that roleplaying that situation is boring, roleplaying that character thrown into a typical shadowrun type situation can be very interesting.

Not really, the first time something goes wrong and combat starts, you'll be making a new character shortly afterward.

[Shortstraw]

That's what the 8 edge on the desk jockey is for.

[Blade]

Roleplaying the guy with a desk job might be boring (though there's at least one RPG I know that let you do this, and is pretty fun), but your character needs to have other reasons to exist than "because it would be fun for someone to be roleplaying me", unless you're willing to push disbelief suspension that far...

If "PC are heroes" lead to less Thorn Mercury Sue, and to less campaigns like the artifacts one, I'm all for it.

[Shortstraw]

Playing a street doc/mechanic was fun.

[sk8bcn]

Fatum, watch your tone. You're coming across very aggressive here.

And understanding what have been said totally false. I've seldom seen so many answers and assumptions that were off target (I can't express it better).

[sk8bcn]

It's a question of gameplay type, not power levels. SR4 lacks any mechanical complexity. I approach the challenge, throw some dice, move on. The mechanical tactics side are consequently pretty thoughtless. Both SR4 and Exalted fall into my 'drunk or lazy' game bin. Not saying they're bad games, but they aren't engaging in the same way. (This of course is ignoring the storytelling aspect, which is a function of the GM, so can't be properly quantified here).

I will let you look up what transhumanism is on your own.

What he means (IMO) is not that the rules are easy or hard to comprehend or remember.

SR3: Mechanicaly complex: You have to think about how you'll spend your dice pool.
Rolemaster: Mechanically complex: Choose which action pass you wanna act and divide your skill between offense/defense.
Dying Earth: Mechanically complex (even if rules are very easy): you can reroll a number of times equal to pool that you have to refresh.

Earthdawn: somewhat complex (with fatigue and the right uses of talents)

Cthulhu: mechanically not complex (just roll -but roleplay-)
DD3.5: usually not complex (roll and use your skills without toughts-mage spell pool management might be tough considered as complex)


Technically, as far as I understand Nezumi, I would define a complex game as this:

"A game has complexity if, with the same characters, a player with a better strategical approach would perform better than another".

[Shortstraw]

Complexity in games.

[All4BigGuns]

Complexity in games.

Not bothering with the link, but to finish the statement: Complexity in games kills games.

[bannockburn]

For you.
Others enjoy it.

[Draco18s]

Not bothering with the link, but to finish the statement: Complexity in games kills table-top games.

Fixed that for you.

Complexity in video games is often a very, very good idea (consider the complexity difference between CoD and Dwarf Fortress, and which one is the "better game").

[All4BigGuns]

For you.
Others enjoy it.

There are certain systems that it works for, but, IMO, SR is not one of them.

You want complexity in your games, go with a Palladium system.

[nezumi]

What he means (IMO) is not that the rules are easy or hard to comprehend or remember.
...
"A game has complexity if, with the same characters, a player with a better strategical approach would perform better than another".

You are absolutely correct. I do want some degree of complexity. And this is why I still play SR3 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (and probably not SR5).

[sk8bcn]

Complexity in games.

Another useless link about "Complexe"

[Tashiro]

Not really, the first time something goes wrong and combat starts, you'll be making a new character shortly afterward.

I don't know... the Shadowrun game I'm in is just restarting, and the character I've got for it is an author. No magic. No cyberware. No combat skills. He has everything a perfectly normal person would have that has never had to fight to survive would have. The only thing special about him is his mad history and research skills. I'm more than willing to see how far he goes.

Oh, and for comparison - try Twist, from the original Shadowrun trilogy. He's a sarariman, with a datajack. When the book starts, he's got nothing when it comes to shadowrunning skills. So why not make a character like that to start things off? Not every character has to be 'from the streets' or be built to survive right from the get-go.

[Larsine]

Oh, and for comparison - try Twist, from the original Shadowrun trilogy. He's a sarariman, with a datajack. When the book starts, he's got nothing when it comes to shadowrunning skills. So why not make a character like that to start things off? Not every character has to be 'from the streets' or be built to survive right from the get-go.

Twist would have the Latent Awakening quality though.

[Tashiro]

Twist would have the Latent Awakening quality though.

True, but until he got that quality, he really didn't have much to offer. In fact, even when he got the quality kickstarted, it isn't like he suddenly had a plethora of spells to call upon. The 'jump' between book 1 and book 2 glossed over that he was mostly useless to start with.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Technically, as far as I understand Nezumi, I would define a complex game as this:

"A game has complexity if, with the same characters, a player with a better strategical approach would perform better than another".

And yet, SR4A has this in spades. *shrug*

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I don't know... the Shadowrun game I'm in is just restarting, and the character I've got for it is an author. No magic. No cyberware. No combat skills. He has everything a perfectly normal person would have that has never had to fight to survive would have. The only thing special about him is his mad history and research skills. I'm more than willing to see how far he goes.

Oh, and for comparison - try Twist, from the original Shadowrun trilogy. He's a sarariman, with a datajack. When the book starts, he's got nothing when it comes to shadowrunning skills. So why not make a character like that to start things off? Not every character has to be 'from the streets' or be built to survive right from the get-go.

This I can get behind. I have many a character that is like this at the start. "The Suit" for one, and he is a Blast to play. Especially since he is now developing some survival skills in game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)