Shadowrun 5 & a lot more in 2013! Options

[Shortstraw]

Possession aside, all of them are exactly 100% identical.

I mean, why should I be a hermetic mage over a chaos mage?

Hey! Hermetics are at least as good as chaos mages in all situations (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Draco18s]

Hey! Hermetics are at least as good as chaos mages in all situations (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I do believe that they are exactly identical, excepting a slight variation in drain stat (which is a "pick one, whore it") and spirit selection (largely meaningless*).

*Last I checked "this is your defense spirit" doesn't actually mean anything at all. So a Plant/Fire/Water/Air/Guardian and a Guardian/Air/Water/Plant/Fire selection are 100% the same.

[_Pax._]

I mean, why should I be a hermetic mage over a chaos mage?

Exactly this.

Chaos, Hermetic, Hindu, Islamic, Gardnerian Wicca, Wu Xing, and Zoroastrianism. All non-possession, Logic Traditions. Only difering in which specific spirit they summon for which specific role ... and sometimes, teh same spirit is available to two or more, just "for different rroles", which really makes zero difference on teh business end of things anyway. (Example, Spirits of Earth ... available as Haalth, Manipulation, Manipulation, Detection, Manipulation, Detection, and HEalth, respectively. Yes, EVERY Logic tradition gets to summon Spirits of Earth. No exceptions.)

So, if you want to make a Logic-based spellcaster ... there really is precious little to choose between for any of these. Oh, some things get shuffled around, maybe one or another offers a spirit the others don't.

But for all practical intents and purposes ... they're all mechanically indistinguishable from each other.

[Draco18s]

Only difering in which specific spirit they summon for which specific role ...

Does "role" ever come up other than "this is what this tradition thinks about this spirit"?
And that nothing stops you from summoning "outside" that role.

[_Pax._]

Does "role" ever come up other than "this is what this tradition thinks about this spirit"?
And that nothing stops you from summoning "outside" that role.

As far as I know, you are correct: "role" is purely "flavor".

And, I've gone and looked at all of those non-Possession Logic traditions I listed before ... and they are REMARKABLY identical:


A: Fire, Air, Earth, Man, Water, _____, _____, ________, ________; Chaos
B: Fire, Air, Earth, Man, Water, _____, _____, ________, ________; Hermetic
C: ____, Air, Earth, ___, Water, Plant, Beast, ________, ________; Hindu
D: Fire, Air, Earth, ___, _____, Plant, _____, Guardian, ________; Islamic
E: Fire, Air, Earth, ___, Water, _____, _____, ________, Guidance; Gardnerian Wicca
F: Fire, ___, Earth, Man, Water, _____, _____, Guardian, ________; Zoroastrian

Seriously. There's only two that have something ONLY they offer - Hindu, which offers Beast spirits, and Gardnerian Wicca, which offers Guidance spirits. And even counting them, only two differ in more than one spirit.

[Shortstraw]

Draco missed the winky face (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[_Pax._]

Draco missed the winky face (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

No, I think he just saw what a good opening you'd made for him to knock on the point again. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

But what you haven't explained is why the Tradition needs to carry the individual differences.

Honestly, I've never run a by-the-book tradition. I've always created my own, and finished the rest with roleplay and edges/flaws. I don't see why adding mechanical complexity and min/max potential will help that.

[Draco18s]

But what you haven't explained is why the Tradition needs to carry the individual differences.

Because they are there. They might as well do this:

10BP:
You're a bloody mage.
You sling spells and summon spirits.

--DONE--

[_Pax._]

But what you haven't explained is why the Tradition needs to carry the individual differences.

Why choose a Tradition at all, if it's not going to make any difference in how the character plays?

What reason does anyone ever have, to choose the Chaos tradition, instead of Hermetic? Or vice versa? They are absolutely 100% identical and indistinguishable, aside from completely non-rules RP. And sure, RP is good ... but shouldn't there be MORE to it, than that??

As Draco says, why not just say "Poof, you're a mage, go cast spells and stuff" ...? Why have you pick an entire Tradition, instead of just saying "I want to use <attribute> for drain" and calling it good enough?

...

And, let me turn that question around on you: Why does a Tradition need to NOT "carry individual differences" in it's mechanics?

Honestly, I've never run a by-the-book tradition. I've always created my own, and finished the rest with roleplay and edges/flaws. I don't see why adding mechanical complexity and min/max potential will help that.

The current system already has min/max potential. It had it, the instant they chose for Drain to be resisted with Willpower "and any one o the three other mental stats" ... instead of, say, "Magic + Willpower".

How many PC Elves (or Naga, or Eagle Shifters) follow a non-Charisma Tradition, out there? How many PC Orks (or Fox Shifters) follow a non-Intuition Tradition?

[Falconer]

Easy if you're an elven charisma whore you take chaos... if you're a human logician you take logic.

And I noticed how you tried to sneak arcana out of the logic stat Pax... which is a mistake. If all traditions have to deal with intuition for perception/assensing... logic for arcana works fine. (I'm so utterly charismatic the spell just writes itself... yeah right). And charisma has a lot of mechanical benefits as well in it's spirit limitation... that makes all 3 relevent to any caster. I'd rather not see that go away.


Quite frankly.. mentors are already step one to powergaming a magician... your customization stuff is just step two (and probably even more problematic).

Why do you think when I suggested mechanical benefits for traditions they should be SMALL and INCONSEQUENTIAL but flavorful. Because I don't want to see a return of the bad old days of each tradition with it's own full blown rules. If they're minor... those who care and like them can use them... the rest can ignore them without a big impact on overall game play mechanics.


The main problem right now with traditions is there's simply not enough spirit types... so of course most of them end up using the exact same ones. If we could get say 20 different ones... then there'd be far less overlap between them.



Any and all traditions should be something a player does WITH the GM to make sure it fits the game world... not something you pull out of thin air... then force on the GM because the rules say so. I'd rather see the rules stay more or less the same... with a heavy part about GM approval.

[Cain]

And, let me turn that question around on you: Why does a Tradition need to NOT "carry individual differences" in it's mechanics?

Because a tradition is not the be-all, end-all of a character's relationship with magic. It's a general overview. At best.

Let's look at Native American shamanism. In reality, that encompasses many different beliefs and practices, enough so that saying they all need to share the same five spirits is ridiculous. Their outlooks change from area to area, tribe to tribe, and individual to individual. It doesn't make sense to force one tradition to cover pacifist shamanistic healers and berserking warriors.

The one constant in esoteric traditions is this: the individual's view is individual. Everyone walks their own path. So expecting a large group of people to do things exactly the same way is silly.

The current system already has min/max potential. It had it, the instant they chose for Drain to be resisted with Willpower "and any one o the three other mental stats" ... instead of, say, "Magic + Willpower".

How many PC Elves (or Naga, or Eagle Shifters) follow a non-Charisma Tradition, out there? How many PC Orks (or Fox Shifters) follow a non-Intuition Tradition?

The elf in my game is Logic based. So, they're out there.

[Draco18s]

Because a tradition is not the be-all, end-all of a character's relationship with magic. It's a general overview. At best.

*Cough*
Let's put it this way:

Would you miss it if it was removed from the game (except as fluff), if so, why?

[_Pax._]

(I just know I'm going to regret this, but ...)

And I noticed how you tried to sneak arcana out of the logic stat Pax... which is a mistake.

I didn't try to sneak anything. It's an optional rule presented in Catalyst's own books: Street Magic, p31.

[...] force on the GM because the rules say so.

Yep. There's that regret. **sigh**

[_Pax._]

Because a tradition is not the be-all, end-all of a character's relationship with magic. It's a general overview. At best.

Doesn't answer the question. I asked, why does any one Tradition need to not be mechanically distinct from other Traditions? What benefit does the game derive from all the Traditions sharing much the same ... sameness, as each other?

It doesn't make sense to force one tradition to cover pacifist shamanistic healers and berserking warriors.

Exactly so. So why not have a means by which each kind of Shamanism can be distinct, yet still have an underlaying theme to connect them together?

The elf in my game is Logic based. So, they're out there.

I didn't ask "have you seen any", I asked, how many have you seen - meaning, of all the Elf magicians you've seen, what portion of them followed non-Charisma based Traditions?

[Cain]

Doesn't answer the question. I asked, why does any one Tradition need to not be mechanically distinct from other Traditions? What benefit does the game derive from all the Traditions sharing much the same ... sameness, as each other?

Game balance.

Exactly so. So why not have a means by which each kind of Shamanism can be distinct, yet still have an underlaying theme to connect them together?

That already exists. Build a tradition by the current rules, and add edges and flaws to round it out. No need to reinvent the wheel, especially with a square peg.

I didn't ask "have you seen any", I asked, how many have you seen - meaning, of all the Elf magicians you've seen, what portion of them followed non-Charisma based Traditions?

It'd be easier to go the other way. Of all the elf magicians that have crossed my table since SR4/4.5 came out, I think I've seen two that were charisma linked. Intuition is much more common for all metatypes. Logic is the least common.

[All4BigGuns]

Game balance.

Maybe if your idea of "game balance" is strictly going by the D&D4e definition where everything must always be equal to the point that there's no point in having more than one option to play.

[_Pax._]

Game balance.

Thank you for the nonanswer - which is exactly what that is, because you are assuming (without supporting facts) that the addition of more points of differentiation between Traditions, woudl automatically lack game balance.

That already exists. Build a tradition by the current rules, and add edges and flaws to round it out.

Edges, flaws? I know of no way to add those to the Tradition itself.

Let me be clearer. Take a Human character. Give him the Magician quality. Then add Mentor Spirit, College Education, and two levels of PErceptive.

Now, tell me what difference there will be, if that character chooses teh Chaos tradition, or the Hermetic tradition?

It'd be easier to go the other way. Of all the elf magicians that have crossed my table since SR4/4.5 came out, I think I've seen two that were charisma linked. Intuition is much more common for all metatypes. Logic is the least common.

Then you, Sir, have nothing to worry about where min/max is concerned, because clearly you'e never seen anyone min/maxxing their Magicians. Anyone making an Elf magician who intended to min.max, would choose a Charisma tradition. Period. Because Cha8 plus Will5, is going to be numerically better than Int6 plus Will5. Every time.

[Falconer]

Yes Pax... game balance.

Past performance is an indication of future gains... and given the history of the current crew at the helm of writers and line dev. I don't trust them to adequately playtest anything they do. I half expect the fluff men to be given a long leash and them to make a muddle of mechanics like they always do. Style over substance, like so much of the recent product has been doing.

Same thing I mentioned earlier... it's the right time for a new edition and a clean up of the rules. I just don't think they have the right people to do it.... so I take a wait and see attitude with all this.

[Draco18s]

Maybe if your idea of "game balance" is strictly going by the D&D4e definition where everything must always be equal to the point that there's no point in having more than one option to play.

I think I'm about this close:
[........]
To just block-ignoring Cain. I think he and I have agreed on a single issue, ever. And I'm getting sick of trying to have a rational discussion with him. And I think the above-quoted statement is why.

Also, the traditions that exist aren't balanced with each other already. There are some spirit types (cough, air) that are "just better" than other types (cough, concealment, cough, endowment).

[Cain]

Thank you for the nonanswer - which is exactly what that is, because you are assuming (without supporting facts) that the addition of more points of differentiation between Traditions, woudl automatically lack game balance.

As already stated, even with the current system, not all traditions are balanced. Adding more options is far more likely to unbalance it.

Edges, flaws? I know of no way to add those to the Tradition itself.

You don't have to. They're individual choices, so belong to the character, not the tradition.

I think I'm about this close:
[........]
To just block-ignoring Cain. I think he and I have agreed on a single issue, ever. And I'm getting sick of trying to have a rational discussion with him. And I think the above-quoted statement is why.

Umm... you do realize that you didn't quote me on that one, right?

[_Pax._]

As already stated, even with the current system, not all traditions are balanced. Adding more options is far more likely to unbalance it.

SO, out of fear, you would counsel inaction. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

You don't have to. They're individual choices, so belong to the character, not the tradition.

See my example above. Two human magicians, everything identical EXCEPT Tradition, both with Perceptive (2), College Education, and Mentor Spirit - the SAME mentor spirit (whatever it happens to be). All skills, NQs, etc are completely identical. They know the same spells, own the same gear (especially foci), etc.

One is a Chaos mage, the other is a Hermetic. What is the systemic difference between the two? What makes one, mechanically different from the other?

...

C'mon. Money where your mouth is. Answer the question, this time.

[Cain]

SO, out of fear, you would counsel inaction. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Not fear, extrapolation. There's no benefit and a lot of room to lose.

See my example above. Two human magicians, everything identical EXCEPT Tradition, both with Perceptive (2), College Education, and Mentor Spirit - the SAME mentor spirit (whatever it happens to be). All skills, NQs, etc are completely identical. They know the same spells, own the same gear (especially foci), etc.

One is a Chaos mage, the other is a Hermetic. What is the systemic difference between the two? What makes one, mechanically different from the other?

Why is it up to the tradition to make them different? Come on, making characters different is up to the player and the roleplay.

[All4BigGuns]

Why is it up to the tradition to make them different? Come on, making characters different is up to the player and the roleplay.

Honestly, he does have a point. There should be some difference other than "fluffy" considerations.

[Cain]

Honestly, he does have a point. There should be some difference other than "fluffy" considerations.

There are differences. Spirit types, drain stats, etc. The rest is flavor, which is up to the player to provide.