Shadowrun Tabletop - Hidden Stories Options

[ggodo]

How are people getting the logic puzzle? I only got an eighth of a picture.

[Smirnov]

What picture puzzle are you mentioning? The last one had nothing to do with pictures.

[hermit]

For people who like having the full picture.

[Sengir]

Sengir: I will get you that rebuttal, but it might be a little while longer. Got a couple crazy deadlines, in both my freelance and my day jobs.

Take your time, we've battled over Infected long enough that a few days won't matter (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Patrick Goodman]

I just appreciate the fact that we can, apparently, do it civilly.

[bannockburn]

What? No pitch forks, ropes and torches? ;(

[Sengir]

What? No pitch forks, ropes and torches? ;(

Patrick uses all his torches and pitchforks on Infected, it would be a boring fight...

[bannockburn]

I agree with him there (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Patrick Goodman]

And since you requested comments over at the mothership...you probably can guess which story I'm dissatisfied with

Hard as it is going to be for some people to believe this, considering the amount of clashing that you and I have done over this topic, I really am disappointed that my stuff doesn’t appeal to you.

I suppose with that screen name, though, it was more or less inevitable. We’ve got some serious disagreements about the topic and its history in the game. Not to mention my interpretation of existing canon.

I am sorry, though. I want everyone to like my stuff, and it pains me when they don’t.

First of all, another iteration of "the UN forces X". Shadowrun borrows from a lot of dystopias, but so far core tenet of militia nutjobs, that "the UN" is some independent entity which can simply send forces somewhere, has not been one of them. Just as IRL, the UN is the sum of its constituents, and accordingly will do frag all to expose underhand dealings of corporations.

I’ll ignore the potential jab about "militia nutjobs," since I don’t imagine you were actually aiming it at me. I’m not going to get into a political discussion on this, either.

I didn’t invent the notion within SR that the UN has somehow grown some teeth. It’s clearly not the same organization in the 2070s that it is in the 2010s. Some writer before me, though, came up with that notion. It’s been established elsewhere that the UN can do some of the stuff that it does; I just ran with it.

Personally, I wonder which Corporate Court justice let them off their leap, and if something might be done about it one of these days. We’ll have to see; that’s really not my baileywick. I expect that heads might roll, figuratively if not literally, for letting the UN get too big for its britches.

Secondly, the idea used to be that Asamando practices happy eugenics by sterilizing feral ghouls and sending them to the mines, while promoting the procreation of the ghoulish master race. So why hide ferals in black site prisons? If there ever were too many ferals to put them to use as expendable labor, I'm sure a ghoul nation there might just find another use for those extra bodies...

And they just might be using a eugenics program, and they might be sending them to the mines. But if they’ve been lying this whole time (and Thema Laula seemed the type to lie her ass off to any and everyone available, up to and including her own daughter), and there’s just too damn many of them? And you’re trying to win recognition from a body that really doesn’t matter, but has really become assertive? You lie some more, and you tell the world one number, you tell the world what you’re doing with that first number, and you hide the rest. Some of them become dinner for your people, some of them wind up in the mines.

The numbers, though, were largely unsustainable in my view. I didn’t see how things could possibly work, considering how many hungry mouths there are to feed in a nation of half a million souls.

Add to that the notion of "Infected rights" is ludicrous on its very face. It’s a dark, dark world, and attempts to turn it into a shinier, happier world didn’t make any sense. Getting all touchy-feely with someone who might kill and eat you isn’t a very good move.

Again, I’m sorry to lose you. You seem to want pathos; I don’t think that’s in the best interest of humanity or the game world. I see it a lot differently than you do, and I’ve learned to deal with that. So Asamando takes it hard, and Infected rights in the bargain. I think it’ll make a better story than what was happening.

Shadowrun has been borrowing more and more ideas and vocabulary from the American Right's mainstream (which used to be thew Right fringe a decade ago) for some time now. Ever since the freelancer purge, I think, though it might have started before.

Yup, especially when dealing with UCAS politics and the going-ons in Washington D.C.

I will cop to being a part of the American right. I will stop there.

Except to say that I didn’t start that trend, and I think a chunk of it began before the purge.

Gotta split this one up; too many quotes.

[Patrick Goodman]

The rest.

Since Sleeping with the Enemy is now seemingly complete, paging Mr Goodman...

I keep forgetting that since my father’s death, I am, in fact, "Mr. Goodman." Still not used to that.

Also, the UN invasion now got complemented with scary terrorists being evil for the sake of evilness...

Evil, yes, but not for its own sake. They are trying to send a message. There's more about this sorta thing coming down the pipe, but I've been crazy busy lately.

Also, is Hannibelle supposed to sound ... southern? Her voice's taken a southern drawl for me in my head reading this.

Her actual locale of birth has never, to the best of my knowledge, actually been revealed. I certainly don't have a clue about were it might have been. I suppose it's possible that I've done something like that, though; if I did, it really wasn't intentional.

I am Texan, however, and I've got the accent to prove it. Especially when I'm tired.

Gassing 187 (ba dum tss) people just for the heck of it, without political message or doomsday prediction or whatever, sure sounds like Hollywood evil-doers to me...

Did I neglect to include the message? I don't think I did. I thought for sure I'd mentioned her going out into the restaurant after the gas attack and drawing blood to tag the walls.

If I forgot that, however, then yeah, I can see where you're coming from.

I thought there was a message, and it was written on the wall. In blood.

I thought I had written something to that effect.

In a world where (meta)human beings react with indifference to monsters eating a major city, you need a few hundred dead to even make a simple point like "actually we're not *quite* as nice". Shadowrun turns more and more into Left Behind, but I've said that before.

How so? I ask because I've never bothered with Left Behind beyond the first couple of chapters of the first book, so I have no idea what the series might actually be like.

And SR is supposed to be pretty dark. I'm doing my part to make it so. And coming from me and my (hopefully) well-established dislike of pure darkness, that's saying something.

I don't know that this is quite the rebuttal Sengir was looking for, but I think it's a start, at least. I hope, in the next couple of weeks, to be not so crazy and disjointed when I answer something.

[tasti man LH]

Yeah, I was about to say: it seems like people are jumping the gun here on presumptions and speculation.

Because at this point, we DON'T know the whole story and motivations of this new faction that's terrorizing the metahuman population. For all we know, they had it just as bad as the guys who are still feeling the burn of the Night of Rage and formed groups like the Sons of Sauron.

And yeah, tilting me head at how people missed the bit about the drawing the message in blood on the wall.

So don't be so quick to assume that these guys are being evil for the sake of evil. Because there is nothing there to suggest that they are.

(this is just as nonsensical as the bit of fiction of the one runner getting possessed, and people are suddenly assuming "Brainhack")

Patience people. A good ongoing story is all about anticipation and some mystery, yes? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Pepsi Jedi]

Did the story actually say what the message was? I read it a few days ago and I remember seeing that they'd tagged the wall. I do not remember if it said, what was painted there.

[Patrick Goodman]

I don't think I said, specifically. It wasn't especially germane to Sunshine's post. In any event, it was "Be afraid of the dark." Not particularly creative, but then, many terrorists aren't.

[Halinn]

(this is just as nonsensical as the bit of fiction of the one runner getting possessed, and people are suddenly assuming "Brainhack")

There's also some overt references in Cracks to FastJack not always being himself. I think it's beyond assumptions of whether or not it's a thing, and more in the territory of how/why.

[CanRay]

I didn’t invent the notion within SR that the UN has somehow grown some teeth. It’s clearly not the same organization in the 2070s that it is in the 2010s. Some writer before me, though, came up with that notion. It’s been established elsewhere that the UN can do some of the stuff that it does; I just ran with it.

Personally, I wonder which Corporate Court justice let them off their leap, and if something might be done about it one of these days. We’ll have to see; that’s really not my baileywick. I expect that heads might roll, figuratively if not literally, for letting the UN get too big for its britches.

Likely it's an option for the Corporate Court to have their own "Deniable Assets". If they don't want to be seen heavy-handing a country that isn't playing ball with them, they're likely to find evidence that the UN can use to go in with the big stompy boots and deal with it.

Even if that evidence never existed to begin with.

[hermit]

I didn’t invent the notion within SR that the UN has somehow grown some teeth. It’s clearly not the same organization in the 2070s that it is in the 2010s. Some writer before me, though, came up with that notion.

that must've been whoever wrote "Hands of the Elite" in Loose Alliances. Though everyone who wrote Geneva and UN after contributed. And, I think, Hands of the Elite still maintained the UN borrows troops, but I might be wrong there.

The Blue Helmets patrolling the UN island in Geneva are courtesy of Crispo fe Crespo, the author of German-only Chrom&Dioxin's Switzerland part, I think.

And they just might be using a eugenics program, and they might be sending them to the mines. But if they’ve been lying this whole time (and Thema Laula seemed the type to lie her ass off to any and everyone available, up to and including her own daughter), and there’s just too damn many of them? And you’re trying to win recognition from a body that really doesn’t matter, but has really become assertive? You lie some more, and you tell the world one number, you tell the world what you’re doing with that first number, and you hide the rest. Some of them become dinner for your people, some of them wind up in the mines.

So the ferals in the prisons were ... food?

Add to that the notion of "Infected rights" is ludicrous on its very face. It’s a dark, dark world, and attempts to turn it into a shinier, happier world didn’t make any sense. Getting all touchy-feely with someone who might kill and eat you isn’t a very good move.

Who is one serious hunger attack away from ripping off your face and eating it, you mean. HMHVV Infected aren't AIDS victims. They're what AIDS infected would be if the disease would turn every one of them into a compulsive rapist.

Except to say that I didn’t start that trend, and I think a chunk of it began before the purge.

I noticed that too. Though, advertising a gun for home defense in Europe, even in Shadowrun, doesn't make a lot of sense, using all those dog-whistle words. Not blaming you personally, it's a trend throughout newer products, and one I do not appreciate. I think the massive tilt towards American authors wasn't helpful in that regard at all.

Her actual locale of birth has never, to the best of my knowledge, actually been revealed. I certainly don't have a clue about were it might have been. I suppose it's possible that I've done something like that, though; if I did, it really wasn't intentional.

I am Texan, however, and I've got the accent to prove it. Especially when I'm tired.

They call it deadline for a reason ... anyway, not that I mind there, what with the name and all. I found it fitting actually. I was just interested if that was part of her character description before (I guess it is now).

How so? I ask because I've never bothered with Left Behind beyond the first couple of chapters of the first book, so I have no idea what the series might actually be like.

"All the world's children, infants and embryos have dissipaded yesterday. Oh look, a guy in Jerusalem trips and has a heart attack! Premature elections in Romania! BREAKING NEWS! STOP THE PRESS!"

I read the first book. I read all volumes of Twilight, but this was actually harder. And even my literary masochism has it's limits.

And SR is supposed to be pretty dark. I'm doing my part to make it so. And coming from me and my (hopefully) well-established dislike of pure darkness, that's saying something.

I prefer dark shades of grey myself. Pure dark is as ridiculous as pure light. And often even more infantile.

[Sengir]

I suppose with that screen name, though, it was more or less inevitable.

At least as far the as deduction from the handle goes you are wrong. The ol' baron is a favorite of mine for nostalgia reasons and not due to any particular preoccupation with vampires.

If there is a class of Infected I'm fond of, it would be ghouls. Because (and that is probably the point of divergence between our opinions) I don't see ghoul rights as an "anti-dystopian" idea of love, peace, and understanding. I see ghoul rights as an extremely dystopian idea exemplifying the general disaffection of the masses.
Legalization of victimless crimes like drug use is a staple of cyberpunk stories, but it has nothing to do with making overcrowded prisons a nicer place or easing the plight of the addicted. It is because nobody gives a rat's ass for what happens to the users, not even when they end up dead in the gutter. But when somebody munches on the dead guy they suddenly start to care?

Besides that, I freely admit that I like "off the beaten track" approaches in games. Ghouls fit nicely into that role, without being completely impossible to play like insect shamans, zentaurs, or the more freakish Infected.

I didn’t invent the notion within SR that the UN has somehow grown some teeth. It’s clearly not the same organization in the 2070s that it is in the 2010s. Some writer before me, though, came up with that notion. It’s been established elsewhere that the UN can do some of the stuff that it does; I just ran with it.

My point was that "the UN" as an independent entity does not exist, it is merely " the sum of its constituents, and accordingly will do frag all to expose underhand dealings of corporations". Surely the UN could give a mandate go medieval on some place, but only if the constituents agree with the course and provide the means. Which will not happen as long as one of them has a finger in the pie, i.e. always.

And they just might be using a eugenics program, and they might be sending them to the mines. But if they’ve been lying this whole time (and Thema Laula seemed the type to lie her ass off to any and everyone available, up to and including her own daughter), and there’s just too damn many of them? And you’re trying to win recognition from a body that really doesn’t matter, but has really become assertive? You lie some more, and you tell the world one number, you tell the world what you’re doing with that first number, and you hide the rest. Some of them become dinner for your people, some of them wind up in the mines.

Again, you missed my point: My reasoning was that an absolutist ghoul regime with an affinity for eugenics should have few reservations against turning ferals, which they see as useless and inferior extra mouths, into food. So why should they hide away the ferals with great effort and then import "livestock" from elsewhere? At the least, secretly butchering ferals should reduce the required "imports", which would also reduce the associated PR problem.

Did I neglect to include the message? I don't think I did. I thought for sure I'd mentioned her going out into the restaurant after the gas attack and drawing blood to tag the walls.

A "tag" to me means something like "Jack was here", which is not exactly a message. Neither was any organization mentioned, so (as far as the available info goes) the tag is not be a reference to the aims of some group, either.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well. You hide away the ferals for more than one reason.

1) So the world doesn't see quite how many they are, or they might decide to just take you all out as a threat
2) So the world doesn't see quite how many they are, so you can, if need be, use them as supplemental food.

You go to great effort to "import livestock" From elsewhere, as to A) Not cut into your strategic reserves (( those before mentioned hidden ferals)) and B) So that "Elsewhere" I.E. The world, THINK they know how many of you there are, as they're keeping track of your food imports, they think they have a solid accounting of your numbers. When infact you could have many more, as you're feeding some of your people off the strategic food reserves. (( The hidden feral population))

It's tactics. You never let the enemy (( Everyone that's not infected)) know your numbers or strength, or that you have back up resources.

That's just speaking from a common sense standpoint.

[tasti man LH]

There's also some overt references in Cracks to FastJack not always being himself. I think it's beyond assumptions of whether or not it's a thing, and more in the territory of how/why.

I know that, I read the story myself.

Still, I'm just horribly confused at why people are suddenly jumping on "FastJack not being himself = BRAINHACKS!!!!!!!!! NOES!!!! BETRAYAL, CATALYST!!!!!!!!!!!!" since there is no evidence to suggest otherwise, and why people are even coming to that conclusion in the first place confounds me.

For all we know, it could be just some new extra-planar menace that's arrived in the Sixth World. Not exactly a stretch of logic, I'd like to think.....

(or FastJack is just getting senile. a legendary runner passing away quietly from the all-powerful entity called time, I would say, is a rather fitting ending for him (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

[Umidori]

It's not just FastJack, though.

This "Ragno" technomancer guy from Eye of The Hurricane seems to be suffering from nearly the same problem - and he even tries to make sense of it by wondering to himself if maybe he's "just getting old". Kinda odd to be a coincidence, no? And while "not being yourself" for a hacker or a decker doesn't necessarily indicate any sort of "brainhack" stuff going on, for a technomancer it almost certainly does.

~Umi

[tasti man LH]

In that guy's case though, it looked more like something wrong was happening to the Resonance (or at the very least, his access to it). And considering (from what I understand at least, since I've never touched SR3) that back in the days of Otakus, it could be an indication that the whole "degradation of powers as you grow older" might come back.

Yeah, I won't deny the fact that SOMETHING is up, but I see absolutely no evidence NONE whatsoever that suggests brainhacks are a thing.

Unless if you guys are suggesting that FastJack is going through his own Emergence...which isn't necessary at this point.

[Umidori]

Losing access to the Resonance doesn't make you do things you don't remember ever having done, though.

Both Ragno and FastJack are exhibiting the exact same element of not being in control of themselves at times. Someone or something else is making them act againt their will, and neither of them are able to remember these "possessions". There are only a few logical options available to explain this.

1) Some extant form of Magical "possession" - maybe they're being possessed by spirits, being forced to act, and then being forced to self-adminster laes to erase their memories. However, this doesn't account for Ragno's diminishing powers, nor the hacking of his nano-tattoos.

2) Some extant form of technological "possession" - like the above-mentioned personafix or PAB. The problem with this is that while it might explain FastJack's behavior, it doesn't also explain Ragno's, as by all accounts he doesn't have any implanted headware, unless we also assume he's been a longterm sleeper agent who was "prepped" beforehand without his knowledge. And again, this doesn't explain his diminishing powers.

3) Some new, unknown form of magical or technological "possession" - something which not only takes control of a person and alters their memories, but also messes with their technomancy if they have any, or is itself somehow related to technomancy. "Brainhacks" could very well fit into this category, especially if as I originally commented, there's been some sort of magical paradigm shift and now technomancy is becoming a "two-way street", so to speak, where technomancers are able to affect machines with just their minds, but now certain machines are becoming able to likewise affect technomancers' minds.

I admit, however, that this doesn't fully explain FastJack's behavior either. Being mundane, he could easily just be going senile, or could have been compromised by corporate powers via magical or technological means. The evidence does seem to favor corporate meddling, though.

~Umi

[tasti man LH]

Never said the guy lost his access to the Resonance completely, just suggesting that something weird was happening to it.

Yes, the signs are pointing to some new threat making their appearance, I'll admit that.

And yeah, considering that whole invitation from GOD thing and the little tidbit of Lone Star busting to FastJack's place.....and calmly greeting him and thanking him for his time, there are some corporate shenanigans on the side.

Still though,I think you guys are prematurely grabbing your torches and pitchforks and making your "Brainhacks = Shadowrun BETRAYED!!!!"

There's a lot we don't know yet, and I'm curious at what's in store.

[Umidori]

Oh, I'm not at all in the "OMG Brainhacks WTF?" camp. I'm totally down with the idea, or at least certain variations of it.

I absolutely love the idea of a technomancer becoming vulernable to having their own body and mind be hacked. Sort of a live by the code, die by the code feel.

But that's just one of numerous potential outcomes I'd be happy with. There are numerous interesting possible explanations. Mind-control parasites or symbiotes, a la Goa'uld and the like. Or perhaps just mind-control nanites. Both options could provide "remote control" of a victim, memory alteration, and even potential interference with technomancy.

~Umi

[tasti man LH]

Alright then, as long as we're on the same page. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Aye, there should be definite risks for a technomancer for doing what they do in comparison to all of the archetypes. They are essentially a living commlink/node, so they should also be vulnerable in their own way from getting hacked, or having their abilities get messed with by a third-party.

...'course, this could also be a hint at the major mechanics overhaul/balancing for TMs, so that should at least keep the people happy on complaining that TMs are broken.

So crunch and fluff wise (with what we've got so far), I'd say it's a win-win for everybody.