Death of a Computer Options

[X-Kalibur]

As an aside for you, Pax; you can use this one on your roommate.

How many programmers does it take to change a lightbulb? None - it's a hardware issue.

[StealthSigma]

Fine. In five sentences or less, with only one list not to exceed twenty lines .... explain to me how to knwowich socket is needed by which iteration of which CPU brand.

Look at the technical specifications of the motherboard or CPU. You will see a line "Socket Type" or some variation of that. If the both are the same then the parts are compatible.

If you look under the technical specifications of the motherboard and the case you have, you will see some line that says something about motherboard form factor. As long as those match (some cases support multiple form factors of motherboard) then you're good on that.

If you look under the technical specifications of the motherboard and the RAM, you will see the type of RAM supported by the motherboard. If those match, then you are good.

If you look under the technical specifications of the GPU, you will see the PCI or other slot requirement for it. Make sure the MOBO tech specs have that slot available.

If you look under the technical specifications of the GPU, you should see a system requirement that indicates the minimum watt power supply you need. Make sure you go about 1.5x this value to support your other system components. I've never built a dual-GPU machine, but I would estimate about 2-2.2x that value would be what you need for a dual GPU system.

Not my experience with this HP ProBook 4530S. Nor my experience with the prior PC - which was a "clearance" item sold through NewEgg, but ultimately from the same OEM. Nor my g/f's experience with a custom-configured desktop, again from the same OEM. Oh sure, there were a few things to remove - McAfee for example. BUT THOSE WEREN"T "crapware" so much as "we know you'll want an antivirus and firewall, so please consider these (from people who paid us to offe their stuff to you)".

I'm not including McAfee or other "free" offerings. I'm talking about HP tools and other software like that. Most of that software is active monitoring software which is very poorly written thanks to the fact that hardware has become so powerful that crappy programming is the norm. They are crapware and cause problems once you start putting any sort of real load on the machine. There's two reasons IT personnel strive towards standard images. The first is that it saves a lot of time pushing out a machine. The second is that we get rid of pointless resource hog software like the vendor offerings.

So, sure, there's a bit of cleanup. But, at least I know it will work at all, straight out of the box and onto my desk.

Yeah, it's a bit of cleanup, and it will work but that doesn't make the software the vendors toss on good for the machine. Everything with computers is about fighting entropy and that software is so horribly written that it make entropy worse.

... and "Tab A does not in fact fit into Slot B-type-blah-blah-blah";

... and "fuck, these are supposed to go together but I can't get them to click into place, and how hard should I push/twist/whatever, am I going to break one or both parts, fuck fuck fuck, they both cost over a hundred dollars, fuck fuck fuck";

... and "wait, how much power do these three pull? Can I put them all on one rail of the PSU or should I split them up? Wait, how do I tell one 'rail' from another, there's no 'rails' here just plugs and cables and oh god".

See, I am dead certain that yes, you ARE right, once you learn what you're doing, it's all so very terribly easy. But before that, it isn't. And no, I actually don't know any PC "hardware guys". My housemate is the closest thing ... and he's a software guy, a programmer, not a hardware guy.

RAM is designed and built in such a way that it can only be socketed in the motherboard in one way. It physically cannot be put in the wrong way. Motherboards are designed so that when you socket ram in, they very near or do latch the RAM into place once it is fully inserted.

The CPU is also the exact same way. You simple align a little arrow on the chip with the motherboard and drop it in (gently). If it's the wrong orientation it will not "sink" in and it is quite visible. If you're not overclocking, then the thermal paste and default heat sink that comes with a CPU is more than sufficient and that is also very easy to install. It requires a little bit of pressure to make sure it's secured to the motherboard, but not too much.

Installing the power supply is easy too. There's basically 3 major types of power connectors from the power supply. They are all designed so they can only fit the proper direction. There's the 16-pin (2x8) motherboard power cable. There is only one of these and it, obviously, plugs into the motherboard. There's the 4-pin molex (1x4) power connector which is what is typically used to power optical drives, disk drives, and fans. That's the 5V rail. Then there's the 4/6/8-pin connectors (2x2, 2x3, or 2x4 layout) which is what is typically used for the PCI cards. That's the 12V rail. Honestly, as long as you have sufficient 12V rails for the GFX card, everything else should be fine.

Pax, don't get me wrong, I understand where you're coming from. I enjoy learning new things and I enjoy passing along knowledge to people just as much and I find that doing is often times a better teacher than words ever can be. I will say this, I've done some work with teaching the basics of computers to young children through a program sponsored by a local university. Part of the course's cost was for very cheap components so they could build their own cheap computer. The boys had a lot easier time with it than the girls. The boys seemed to respond better to force feedback from the components while the girls just tried to jam things in. Even though I told them they shouldn't need to force anything in. One of the lessons I have them do, which I actually recommend you try, is to go to Newegg and spec out a new computer. I tell give them the minimum specs to build to and a budget and tell them to go "make" it. Granted, that's only half the equation of building a machine but it's the more difficult part (which isn't too difficult).

So here's the assignment. Complete if you want, it's not difficult.

Spec me a machine that can run Battlefield 3 at the recommended specs that has a total component cost that does not exceed $2,250. Use Newegg to find your parts. Over speccing is optional but recommended.

BF3 Recommended Specs
Operation System: Windows 7 64-bit
Processor: Quad-core 2.7GHz
Memory: 4GB
Graphics Card: 1GB, GeForce 560 or better, Radeon 6950 or better
Sound Card: DirectX compatible sound card
Hard Drive Capacity: Must be able to support OS plus 20GB for the game installation.

You will need to acquire the following components (some components may be able to be acquired bundled together, like motherboard and sound card).
Computer Case, Motherboard, RAM, CPU, GFX Card, Sound Card, Power Supply, Optical Drive, Hard Drive, Operating System. Depending on the case, you may need to also acknowledge that you need more 80mm or 120mm fans for cooling. I recommend starting the with the CPU/GFX card and building out from those two components.

If you decide the complete the assignment, just link each part in a reply post. Then us hardware guys on the forum can look at it and tell you what we think. Just because you don't know any hardware guys in real life doesn't mean you don't have the communication channels to hardware guys open. Here's a webpage that has a picture based instructions for building a PC. http://www.ifitjams.com/build.htm

--

He's not the only one... Half of the components are pure eldritch speech to my ears, especially graphics cards! Have some bloody naming standards!
That said, I know where to put them and how to put them.

Wait, what? Both GeForce and Radeon cards do have naming conventions within the brand name. You take the value of the model and the first digit indicates the generation of hardware. The numbers following it indicate the potency of the cards. EG. GTX600, GTX670, GTX690 for nVidia.

[_Pax._]

If you look under the technical specifications [...]

... my head starts swimming with all the numbers and letters.

Look, not everyone is good with that stuff. In fact, where computers are concerned I have been feeling my age the last few years - I'm forty-one, fast closing on forty-two. You know the old stereotype about how 30- and 40-something parents have their teenagers or tweeagers set the VCR clock? Yeah, it's a stereotype for a reason. As the mind ages, it finds learning new concepts just that little bit harder.

Computer specifications generally give me headaches. I don't understand them. I know there's meaning and information in there But I can't quite seem to wrap my head around it all - and every year (or even, just a few months), it all changes again.

Yeah, it's a bit of cleanup, and it will work but that doesn't make the software the vendors toss on good for the machine. Everything with computers is about fighting entropy and that software is so horribly written that it make entropy worse.

The OEM I chose doesn't put any of that stuff on their machines, that I've seen - with two examples so far. They even offer machines with nothing at all installed - just a blank hard-drive and a packet of disks carrying the drivers for things like the video card.

There's the 16-pin (2x8) motherboard power cable.

Aha, see, here I actually know more than you've written. Some main power cables are 24-pin. Or 20+4. This site makes my head start swimming, but: http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/sup/partsMotherboard-c.html

There is only one of these and it, obviously, plugs into the motherboard. There's the 4-pin molex (1x4) power connector which is what is typically used to power optical drives, disk drives, and fans. That's the 5V rail. Then there's the 4/6/8-pin connectors (2x2, 2x3, or 2x4 layout) which is what is typically used for the PCI cards. That's the 12V rail. Honestly, as long as you have sufficient 12V rails for the GFX card, everything else should be fine.

... and SATA power connectors. My old desktop used those both for the HDD and the new Blu-Ray. See, there's another layer of detail you've glossed over.

Pax, don't get me wrong, I understand where you're coming from.

No, Sir, I do not believe you do.

You handwave all these things as being "easy" - but from my side of it? It's not easy. It's intimidating, it's anxiety and stress inducing, and it might as well all be black magic and orcish runes to me. And all your handwavery just comes across as trivialising my sense of being lost, and conviction that I'll "do something wrong".

So here's the assignment. Complete if you want, it's not difficult.

... see what I mean? You just did it again!

*sigh*

Wait, what? Both GeForce and Radeon cards do have naming conventions within the brand name. You take the value of the model and the first digit indicates the generation of hardware. The numbers following it indicate the potency of the cards. EG. GTX600, GTX670, GTX690 for nVidia.

That's not exactly true. And those naming conventions change every few years, too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon#Nomenclature

[Lionhearted]

I haven't been keeping up with graphic card naming since Geforce 3!
I know exactly what a Voodoo 3000 was capable of and it was better then the Voodoo 2000!
But a Radeon HD5680 or GTX650, I have no clue what that means except that both are 1gig memory cards! (probably isn't since I made those numbers up)

[_Pax._]

Radeons are up to the 7000 series. My new rig will have two 7970's in it. And they're 3GB cards.

Technology races ever forward, ever faster.

[Lionhearted]

Yet the software that would employ it lags behind because of an 8 year old console market.
Literally no point in spending $1200 on a graphics card.

[Stahlseele]

actually, putting in more than one GPU can lead to a phenomenon called mico-stuttering or something like that, where you might have little to no stuttering at all using only one potent GPU.

[StealthSigma]

... my head starts swimming with all the numbers and letters.

Look, not everyone is good with that stuff. In fact, where computers are concerned I have been feeling my age the last few years - I'm forty-one, fast closing on forty-two. You know the old stereotype about how 30- and 40-something parents have their teenagers or tweeagers set the VCR clock? Yeah, it's a stereotype for a reason. As the mind ages, it finds learning new concepts just that little bit harder.

Computer specifications generally give me headaches. I don't understand them. I know there's meaning and information in there But I can't quite seem to wrap my head around it all - and every year (or even, just a few months), it all changes again.

Age isn't the enemy here nor is it an inability to learn. People get used to doing things a certain way and that's how they like it. This is called conservatism. Sometimes its good and sometimes its bad. The problems I've had with teaching other people how to use new things is finding the way to teach them that most closely matches how they learn. For people like me, the way to teach me is to dump me in a sandbox, give me all the tools I need (with possibly a basic instruction on how to use the tool) and a goal to reach. Some people need to be shown over and over to learn (because they learn best by rote).

The OEM I chose doesn't put any of that stuff on their machines, that I've seen - with two examples so far. They even offer machines with nothing at all installed - just a blank hard-drive and a packet of disks carrying the drivers for things like the video card.

Your OEM is like buying a GMC Corvette instead of a GMC Pontiac Grand Am. You pay more to get more and less more and the less more is more when it comes to computer software from the OEM.

Aha, see, here I actually know more than you've written. Some main power cables are 24-pin. Or 20+4. This site makes my head start swimming, but: http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/sup/partsMotherboard-c.html

I should have made a disclaimer that I was answering based on my memory and my perception on what I think the pin count is. The pin count is of trivial important since the shape and size of connector is quite standardized and you can't put the wrong power connector in the wrong point. It might be a 20 pin connector for the mobo power cable now that I think about it. It might even be a 24-pin.

... and SATA power connectors. My old desktop used those both for the HDD and the new Blu-Ray. See, there's another layer of detail you've glossed over.

Forgot about those. They're also quite a bit different than any of the other cables so it's not as if you need to worry about plugging in the wrong ones to the wrong point.

No, Sir, I do not believe you do.

You handwave all these things as being "easy" - but from my side of it? It's not easy. It's intimidating, it's anxiety and stress inducing, and it might as well all be black magic and orcish runes to me. And all your handwavery just comes across as trivialising my sense of being lost, and conviction that I'll "do something wrong".

I handwave it all as easy because it is trivial. Your problem, which I'm pretty sure I've keyed in to based on your first paragraph in your post, is that you don't have the appropriate noise filter in place. You can not differentiate between what information is necessary and what isn't and you're trying to look at the whole picture rather than piecemeal it. Which is entirely understandable since you don't know what you need to know. There's a LOT of information available because people want that, especially overclockers and hyperoptimizers. A lot of that information is, frankly, worthless to someone just building a PC from scratch. What you need to know is just how the various part interact with each other and that is what I've been laying out in previous posts (CPU socket type needs to match on CPU/mobo and others). Think of it like a puzzle and solve it one part at a time. You already know a good portion of the information you would be interested in. You know what you want for your GPU, CPU, memory, HDD capacity, optical drive. That leaves just the mobo, case, and PSU as items that you would need to figure out. Figuring out the mobo and case is easy because the mobo is dependent on the CPU and the case is dependent on the mobo (or vice versa if you will) if you look at the information I provided in my previous post on what to look at.

It sounds like you have at least a basic grasp of assembling some pieces of a computer, I don't think you did anything physically wrong when attempting to install the Blu-ray drive and all the components except the CPU installation are pretty much the same way. Just differently shaped connectors.

Honestly, Pax, you have the foundational knowledge to do it and that is the most difficult part to grasp. Once the foundation is there building upon it is easy once the right avenue is found. You've just never had anyone show and explain it in a manner that you would understand. This is a fairly good guide and explains a lot about the building itself. http://www.mechbgon.com/build/index.html

That's not exactly true. And those naming conventions change every few years, too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon#Nomenclature

The specifics of the nomenclature they use may change periodically but the pattern does not. The 1st digit has always been a chipset generation indicator while the 2nd digit in the Radeon series is always an indicator of quality and the higher the value the higher the performance/cost. Whether that is high end, performance, bargain, integrated is of minimal value. If you're building a PC for gaming then the that digit has always been 7+. Most of the shakeup in nomenclature has been at the 5 and lower values for referencing bargain and integrated chips which is the exact opposite end of the spectrum for a home built gaming machine... but that's part of the information filter....

--

Radeons are up to the 7000 series. My new rig will have two 7970's in it. And they're 3GB cards.

Technology races ever forward, ever faster.

That makes me flinch. Please, please, please tell me you're running modern games on ultra-high settings with tri-monitor setups and 2560x1600 resolution on each monitor because you will be waiting more than 5 years for a game that pushes those settings. Your best bet to push it will be some real time strategy where it has a huge number of highly detailed actors like the Total War series or Supreme Commander where they have ridiculously high supply caps (2000 with each building/unit taking one supply) and not a game like Starcraft where they have small supply caps with variable supply count units.... or possibly Crysis 4 or whatever it will be called.

[All4BigGuns]

Maybe he got that graphical set up specifically so that it would be years for something to come along that "pushes" it's limits. Seems to me like it would be better to do that than to get less powerful and have to upgrade sooner--and thus end up spending more.

[Lionhearted]

Yet to run into a game my Radeon HD 4870 couldn't run on high or better, then again I don't play grand strategy. (1920x1080 admittedly and quite often the fancy graphics options no one can pronounce is out of the question, usually max out those isotropic whatever the hell and AA)

[StealthSigma]

Maybe he got that graphical set up specifically so that it would be years for something to come along that "pushes" it's limits. Seems to me like it would be better to do that than to get less powerful and have to upgrade sooner--and thus end up spending more.

It's cheaper thanks to SLI and crossfire.

Let's say a top end of the current generation cost $750. You get two of those and you just spend $1,500 when $750 would suffice. By the time a game comes out that does push the need for a crossfire of that card the new generation of GFX will probably have come out. That $750 card is going to drop down to about $350. You pick up the 2nd card at $350 crossfire it ($1,100 total $400 savings) and you keep on trucking for another couple years until the NEXT generation comes out. Then you get a $750 card of that generation (so you entirely skipped a generation). Graphics cards are pretty much the most common component to be migrated from one platform to the next precisely because SLI and crossfire have made it much more difficult to make them obsolete and in need of an upgrade.

I'd estimate 4-5 years at the current game progression and by that time the new generation of cards will be out and the current generation will be much cheaper than current prices. This has been the usual pattern. Things may change if there's a new revolution in PC gaming or the specs on the next generation for Playstation and XBox are enough to push the need. Generally, dual top end cards of the current generation is reserved for multi-display output at high resolutions and not for single display output at high resolutions. A GTX570, for example, is more than sufficient to run most, if not all, current games at ultra settings on 1920x1080 resolution for a single display as well as many upcoming games. SLI two cards will run quite a bit into the future. A single GTX670 will run all current games and most of the upcoming games for a single display.

[All4BigGuns]

It's cheaper thanks to SLI and crossfire.

Let's say a top end of the current generation cost $750. You get two of those and you just spend $1,500 when $750 would suffice. By the time a game comes out that does push the need for a crossfire of that card the new generation of GFX will probably have come out. That $750 card is going to drop down to about $350. You pick up the 2nd card at $350 crossfire it ($1,100 total $400 savings) and you keep on trucking for another couple years until the NEXT generation comes out. Then you get a $750 card of that generation (so you entirely skipped a generation). Graphics cards are pretty much the most common component to be migrated from one platform to the next precisely because SLI and crossfire have made it much more difficult to make them obsolete and in need of an upgrade.

I'd estimate 4-5 years at the current game progression and by that time the new generation of cards will be out and the current generation will be much cheaper than current prices. This has been the usual pattern. Things may change if there's a new revolution in PC gaming or the specs on the next generation for Playstation and XBox are enough to push the need. Generally, dual top end cards of the current generation is reserved for multi-display output at high resolutions and not for single display output at high resolutions. A GTX570, for example, is more than sufficient to run most, if not all, current games at ultra settings on 1920x1080 resolution for a single display as well as many upcoming games. SLI two cards will run quite a bit into the future. A single GTX670 will run all current games and most of the upcoming games for a single display.

And just imagine how long doing that with the top-end ones would take before you have to replace. It's expensive, yeah, but with how long it'll last, probably worth it.

[nezumi]

Sigma seems like he's approaching the point where he's going to drive to OP's house and hold a gun to his head until OP builds a damn computer from scratch (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Seriously though, I'm not sure I live in Sigma's world.

The northboard on my computer died. I figured this would be a great time to upgrade. Tossed the motherboard and processor and RAM. Since this is my 'junk' computer, I'd keep everything else. (Previous machine was a Sony Vaio. Very nice when it was new.)

New motherboard doesn't quite fit in the case. The case is ATX, but set up weird to support their special cooling system. So new case.

CD-ROM and DVD-ROM, as well as one of my hard disks are IDE. Didn't even think to check. The last computer I bought was both IDE and SATA. I didn't realize sata-only was a 'thing'. Bought a new SATA drive. Had to 'steal' the other computer to transfer all of the data over. Stole my wife's extra DVD drive.

Power supply is under-powered. I buy a new one. Just guesstimated at 400W, since it was only $10 more than the 300W one. Good thing, because my kid's UPS died that same week, so I scavenged the old one. Wiring that in was surprisingly weird, because there was no obvious 'up'. Had to do it twice.

Put the mobo in and dropped the last screw somewhere. Had to remove the mobo to find it. Got the processor in with no problem (the new intel series is very nicely keyed), but the whole way I was imagining accidentally touching one of those little gold notches and killing it.

Old heat sink wouldn't fit in the case. Had to toss that. And the new thermal paste I bought was useless because some came with the board.

(By the by, when contacting Sony technical support to ask what the heat transfer rate of their heat sink, because you've replaced every other component, but you're not sure if this is better than the one Intel sent you, they're just as helpful as you'd expect. That was the one 'dumb on me' I was expecting.)

Pushing new RAM in ... I always feel like it's about to break. Trying to push it in without breathing too hard or touching any capacitors or accidentally drooling on anything. I'd pay someone $5 to install my RAM for me.

Booted that up expecting the OS to work reasonably well (I've hot-swapped OSes before and they complain a LOT but they boot). Windows XP dies horribly. Linux boots fine, but ... I'd like Windows too.

Four days fighting Windows to get the (legal) version I want. That's another $70. Then dealing with drive partitions and all that. FINALLY got that sorted after three reformats.

Video card can't keep up and chokes painfully. Not sure why. I could play Fallout on the old machine, but not on the new one with the same card. Have to replace that.

Oh, no PS2 slots on the new mobo either. Have to get a little convertor thing.

There are two steps that worked as planned and without any fuss;
My additional sound card (I bought for Linux, because the Vaio card wasn't supported) worked fine.
Linux never complained.

Last box I built was ten times easier, but the motherboard was dead on arrival, so I had to spend a few hours diagnosing that (after I"d already built the whole box). I was without a box for over a month. Had I had the delays like above, I'd also be out a motherboard, because it would have been past its no questions asked warranty.

Everything else was just a string of headaches. And every step I need to buy something, it means another one to four hours of research on all of the terms, and another hour of searching newegg for the 'perfect' thing.

Not saying it's not doable, even for people who don't know anything about computers. But sometimes it's really worth paying someone else to do it for you.

[Lionhearted]

Nezumi, that's legendary. I would totally watch a movie of your rigging exploits (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[StealthSigma]

And just imagine how long doing that with the top-end ones would take before you have to replace. It's expensive, yeah, but with how long it'll last, probably worth it.

It's the same amount of time. Whether you get 1 or 2 of the current gen top-end, the end of life for a crossfire/SLI of that card generation is the same. All that changes between getting 1 or 2 is the point when you get the 2nd card to run the crossfire and that card will always be cheaper when acquired later. I'm not sure what kind of crazy shenanigans would need to go on that would make getting two top-end cards now would be cheaper than getting the 2nd at a later time when it's needed.

There are edge cases (multi-displays, unusual resolutions) that warrant crossfire of the current gen top-end, but those are the exceptions and not the norm.

--

Sigma seems like he's approaching the point where he's going to drive to OP's house and hold a gun to his head until OP builds a damn computer from scratch (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I highly doubt that. I'm approaching the point where I'm very seriously interested in helping Pax understand all the inner workings of the computer though. I consider it a problem and if there's one thing I absolutely love, it is puzzles and all problems are nothing but a puzzle.

Seriously though, I'm not sure I live in Sigma's world.

It sounds like you try to salvage as much as you can from your old machine rather than build a new. The only thing I ever salvage is the GFX card in some cases and those are usually because I needed an upgraded GFX card for my old machine at some point. RAM is doable, but I hate having going back and finding the frequency of my RAM so I can get upgrades that match the frequency (since all your RAM runs at the lowest frequency making hi-freq RAM an unnecessary expense). I always get new parts for any mechanic bit, so HDD and optical drives get an upgrade. I always upgrade the PSU to avoid entropy on it. I'd probably upgrade a SSD for longevity concerns. Basically, I'm gutting pretty much everything but the mobo and CPU at that point and I, frankly, hate applying thermal paste so I would just get a new CPU to avoid that fiasco waiting to happen.

[Lionhearted]

Hey, hey Sigma I has broken computer too... Which is why I post from a 3ds.
Basically it had a major screen corrupt and then refused to restart. It starts powering up but then enters a restart cycle each lasting like 10-20 seconds. No signal on the screen what so ever.
Fans are clean CPU, PSU and GPU.
CPU was pasted recently and I've had no heating issues or dust build up.
Right so after opening it, it looks like there's no power connecting to the graphics card (as mentioned a Radeon HD 4870) with an extra external fan. Um, as in it's not lighting up as it should.
Not quite sure what else you'd need to know to make a guesstimate... Which I know is hard to do off-site.

After doing a perception check.
CPU AMD phenom II quadcore
PSU Corsair HX650W
RAM x3 2gig whatever the fuck
Mobo Gigabyte something rather I know it's a x3 in there somewhere.
OS. Win7 64bit pro.

Worth noting is that I had issues with the graphics drivers making me having to dial back(?) the drivers

[StealthSigma]

Hey, hey Sigma I has broken computer too... Which is why I post from a 3ds.
Basically it had a major screen corrupt and then refused to restart. It starts powering up but then enters a restart cycle each lasting like 10-20 seconds. No signal on the screen what so ever.
Fans are clean CPU, PSU and GPU.
CPU was pasted recently and I've had no heating issues or dust build up.
Right so after opening it, it looks like there's no power connecting to the graphics card (as mentioned a Radeon HD 4870) with an extra external fan. Um, as in it's not lighting up as it should.
Not quite sure what else you'd need to know to make a guesstimate... Which I know is hard to do off-site.

After doing a perception check.
CPU AMD phenom II quadcore
PSU Corsair HX650W
RAM x3 2gig whatever the fuck
Mobo Gigabyte something rather I know it's a x3 in there somewhere.
OS. Win7 64bit pro.

Worth noting is that I had issues with the graphics drivers making me having to dial back(?) the drivers

My gut feeling based on what you're saying doesn't match the scenario very well. Did this problem start just after you repasted the CPU? Did you remember to reconnect the power for the heat sink fan? I had this issue when I built my PC. It would boot and restart over and over because the fan wasn't connected causing the CPU to heat up so fast that it hit its shutdown temp.

Barring that, you would need to remove the GFX card as an element. You should be able to get bios to POST without the GFX card and not go into the perpetual reboot cycle. It would be nice if your mobo had an integrated graphics chip, but I doubt it has one. If you have an older GFX card you can try booting with that installed.

[_Pax._]

Yet the software that would employ it lags behind because of an 8 year old console market.
Literally no point in spending $1200 on a graphics card.

On the one hand: that's absolutely not true. While most games CAN be run on settings that low, the best ones can also be cranked so high, only upper-tier desktops can hope to touch them.

On the other hand: we're due for a new console generation. Which means there'll be a jump at the low end, that will probably spark a push at that upper end too.

actually, putting in more than one GPU can lead to a phenomenon called mico-stuttering or something like that, where you might have little to no stuttering at all using only one potent GPU.

Easily rectified, should a game suffer from that flaw, by switching off one of the GPUs.

Maybe he got that graphical set up specifically so that it would be years for something to come along that "pushes" it's limits. Seems to me like it would be better to do that than to get less powerful and have to upgrade sooner--and thus end up spending more.

DING DING DING DING!

And I do believe I've said as much, in this very thread: I have tried to future proof this build, as much s possible.

Everything else was just a string of headaches. And every step I need to buy something, it means another one to four hours of research on all of the terms, and another hour of searching newegg for the 'perfect' thing.

EXACTLY the sort of nightmare I was, and remain, afraid of.

[_Pax._]

Your OEM is like buying a GMC Corvette instead of a GMC Pontiac Grand Am. You pay more to get more and less more and the less more is more when it comes to computer software from the OEM.

You know that head-swimming sensation I mentioned before? Yeah, that phrasing right there sdoing it to me about as well as a sea of to-me incomprehensible computer-part specifications.

I handwave it all as easy because it is trivial.

Hey, Sigma? Fuck you. >_<

Your problem, which I'm pretty sure I've keyed in to based on your first paragraph in your post, is that you don't have the appropriate noise filter in place. You can not differentiate between what information is necessary and what isn't and you're trying to look at the whole picture rather than piecemeal it. Which is entirely understandable since you don't know what you need to know.

At which point, it is not trivial, it is not easy.

FFS, man. Just because something is easy FOR YOU, doesn't mean it's easy for everyone.

I highly doubt that. I'm approaching the point where I'm very seriously interested in helping Pax understand all the inner workings of the computer though. I consider it a problem and if there's one thing I absolutely love, it is puzzles and all problems are nothing but a puzzle.

And what you've entirely failed to see, is that you have two other problems you must solve FIRST.

One, is the fact that I don't want your fucking help. I never asked for it, and I have in fact quite clearly asked NOT to have it. I've even asked for the whole goddamned thread to be closed because "help" kept being pushed at me. >_<

Two, is the fact that you don't seem to be very good at GIVING that help, without antagonising the intended recipient of it.

[Stahlseele]

As far as i know, ALL Systems with multi gpu suffer from the mico stuttering in pretty much all games.
AMD/ATI more so than nVidia too . . and if i have to switch one of the cards off to play without stuttering, then in my eyes having more than one, especially AMD/ATI is a waste of money . .
Even though AMD/ATI have way more bang for the buck . .

[X-Kalibur]

As far as i know, ALL Systems with multi gpu suffer from the mico stuttering in pretty much all games.
AMD/ATI more so than nVidia too . . and if i have to switch one of the cards off to play without stuttering, then in my eyes having more than one, especially AMD/ATI is a waste of money . .
Even though AMD/ATI have way more bang for the buck . .

I previously used crossfired ATIs and SLI'd nVidias and only ever had the micro stuttering problem on maybe one or two games. It requires some fiddling around with drivers and settings sometimes. Although the easiest answer, as mentioned, is to simply force it down to 1 card.

I feel like the dual GFX era is already past, however. You just generally get better bang for your buck with a single, higher end card than 2 lower end ones gated together.

[_Pax._]

Well, NVidia offers the gloriously-expensive GTX 690 ... two GPUs, on a single card.

So dual-GPU builds may not be quite so "thing of the past", after all.

[Stahlseele]

The only thing where i really can see a use of multi GPU setups is for massive parallelisation gpu computing like bit coin mining for example . .
And the reason for the dual gpu cards is just to cram more power into a single pci-e slot. Just good that it does not matter as much as you'd expect to lower bandwidth on PCI-E in terms of Performance.
Seriously, going from x16 to x8 is a whopping 5% loss of performance if i remember correctly, if that . .
But for Gaming, more than one GPU does not scale perfectly. So two GPUs does not equal twice the power. only about 160-180% realistically. And adds the problem of micro-stuttering, so in my eyes not worth it because of the more in cost and electricity bill and heat that needs to be taken care of and thus more cooling needed and because of that a louder computer . .

[Lionhearted]

I cringe at the thought of spending that kind of money on components when I know that 6 month or a year down the line the price will have dropped drastically. Have the best of last year at 1/4 the price is more to my liking. Especially as it takes time for games to come around and fully utilize the new technology (with a few exceptions made to bring even the beefiest monster to it's knees)

[_Pax._]

Generally, that's what I'd probably prefer, too. But just this once, I wanted to throw caution to the wind, and get the best, not-IMO-ludicrously-overbuilt computer my (this time) sizeable budget would allow.