Capacity on Imaging Scopes, SR4a Options

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Well, the launchers/non-launchers split makes more sense than the original longarms/automatics/pistols. What is about the Firearms skills group?

[StealthSigma]

Well, the launchers/non-launchers split makes more sense than the original longarms/automatics/pistols. What is about the Firearms skills group?

You could take it, I guess but there's not much point when there's only two skills that would qualify for it.

[_Pax._]

Hm, i meant StealthSigma and his Houserule. Because lMGs and Assault/Battle rifles are not that different.

Um, yes, yes they most definitely are quite different. IRL, I mean. And I speak from (limited, but nonzero) first-hand experience.


Here's what my houserule for firearms skills is/was:

Firearms Skills There is no such skill as “Automatics”; that is instead a specialisation of other skills. Skills in the Firearms Group include Pistols (Holdouts, Light Pistols, Heavy Pistols, Machine Pistols, SMGs), Longarms (SMGs, Shotguns, Assault Rifles, Battle Rifles, Sport Rifles, Sniper Rifles), and Heavy Weapons (Grenade launchers, Assault Cannons, LMGs, MMGs, HMGs).

Yes, that means SMGs can be fired using either Pistols or Longarms. Knock yourselves out.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Um, yes, yes they most definitely are quite different. IRL, I mean. And I speak from (limited, but nonzero) first-hand experience.

Well, i only have experience with the MG74 (a MG 42 clone), which weights a ton (actually 12kg without ammo or tripod). The only thing that is really different to operating a (battle-)rifle is the belt-feed*, and the employed tactics. But the firearms skill is about pulling the trigger and hitting stuff, not about the decision when (and where) to use supressive fire or precision fire.

*when the MG is used with the bipod. Tripod shooting a MG42/MG3/MG74 is actually really different - no (felt) recoil, and very accurate with 4x optics. It is much easier to hit something with the tripod.

[Lionhearted]

Why did you feel there was a need for a change?
I mean admittedly Automatics is by far the best and Pistols the worst but it balances out the firearms vs close combat group to equal number of skills.
and while in practice most heavy weapons is not that different from a normal firearm I think that keeping heavy weapons excempt on the group is good for the same reason that the exotic weapon skill exist, balance.
beats me why throwing and archery is special snowflakes although... Archaic weapon group?

[StealthSigma]

Here's what my houserule for firearms skills is/was:

Firearms Skills There is no such skill as “Automatics”; that is instead a specialisation of other skills. Skills in the Firearms Group include Pistols (Holdouts, Light Pistols, Heavy Pistols, Machine Pistols, SMGs), Longarms (SMGs, Shotguns, Assault Rifles, Battle Rifles, Sport Rifles, Sniper Rifles), and Heavy Weapons (Grenade launchers, Assault Cannons, LMGs, MMGs, HMGs).

Yes, that means SMGs can be fired using either Pistols or Longarms. Knock yourselves out.

Same as ours, basically, except firearms group doesn't exist (since HW isn't under it) and we split HW for some reason.

It's also a nice change since it makes certain archetypes easier to take into an infiltration. Your sniper (unless he invests as heavily in automatics or pistols) isn't going to be good at awkward ranges (shotgun vs sniper rifle). By consolidating, you give the sniper SMG, assault rifles, and battle rifles for the infiltration which lets him provide similar longer ranged fire support in the internal environment.

It gives the pistol user a bit of a heavier option with the SMG (yes it has lower damage/ap but you make up for it with fire rate).

--

Why did you feel there was a need for a change?
I mean admittedly Automatics is by far the best and Pistols the worst but it balances out the firearms vs close combat group to equal number of skills.
and while in practice most heavy weapons is not that different from a normal firearm I think that keeping heavy weapons excempt on the group is good for the same reason that the exotic weapon skill exist, balance.
beats me why throwing and archery is special snowflakes although... Archaic weapon group?

Us personally? We have a much smaller group (three characters) and all characters are combat heavies in their own right. Consolidating the skills made it a bit easier to play our archetypes while allowing a bit more diversity in non-combat skills. There's other reasons why it's a good change that I and others have listed out but I think that was the motivating factor.

[_Pax._]

[...] the firearms skill is about pulling the trigger and hitting stuff, [...]

How you hold the weapon also factors in. Otherwise, if you reduce it to the point in the quoted snippet above? There's no difference between a pistol, a crossbow, and an over-the-shoulder missile launcher.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

I mean admittedly Automatics is by far the best and Pistols the worst

Only if you run in a jungle or in deep africa (or just look at the mechanics). The Pistols skill is the most used combat skill in my group, at least 60% of all PC attack rolls is pistols. The rest of the rolls are divided by automatics (one player has an ares executive protector SMG), spellcasting and exotic ranged: monofilament bolas (yes, one player is crazy). 2 players own sniper rifles, but neither got a chance to use it yes.

[_Pax._]

Why did you feel there was a need for a change?
I mean admittedly Automatics is by far the best and Pistols the worst but it balances out the firearms vs close combat group to equal number of skills.

Because unless you have a hard-on for shotguns, or are making a sniper, or want a "gunslinger" ... there's absolutely zero reason not to have Automatics, and very little reason to have anything but Automatics.

I don't mind there beign a go-to skill for something. But I do mind there being a "go-to-or-you're-stupid" skill, for anything.

beats me why throwing and archery is special snowflakes although... Archaic weapon group?

If I could find a third skill to put in with those two, that wasn't too much of a stretch? I would, and yes, "Archaic Missile Weapons Group" would sound just fine to me.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

How you hold the weapon also factors in. Otherwise, if you reduce it to the point in the quoted snippet above? There's no difference between a pistol, a crossbow, and an over-the-shoulder missile launcher.

Sure. But is holding an LMG that different from holding a rifle? On a MG74, it is not that different if you can manage the 13kg (unless tripod-mounted, ofc). And that thing is a 7.62x51 GPMG.

[_Pax._]

Only if you run in a jungle or in deep africa (or just look at the mechanics). The Pistols skill is the most used combat skill in my group, at least 60% of all PC attack rolls is pistols. The rest of the rolls are divided by automatics (one player has an ares executive protector SMG), spellcasting and exotic ranged: monofilament bolas (yes, one player is crazy). 2 players own sniper rifles, but neither got a chance to use it yes.

Automatics includes Machine Pistols.

So one skill can cover "small and easily concealed" (the Izom Armaments RP-63A Machine Pistol, SA/BF/BF-L/BF-Lx2, 5P and AP-1) ... and also "big loud and powerful" (any battle rifle), and several points in between.

IOW, the Automatics skill literally does it all.

[_Pax._]

Sure. But is holding an LMG that different from holding a rifle?

Most of the time? Yes, IMO and IMLE.

[StealthSigma]

Because unless you have a hard-on for shotguns, or are making a sniper, or want a "gunslinger" ... there's absolutely zero reason not to have Automatics, and very little reason to have anything but Automatics.

I don't mind there beign a go-to skill for something. But I do mind there being a "go-to-or-you're-stupid" skill, for anything.


If I could find a third skill to put in with those two, that wasn't too much of a stretch? I would, and yes, "Archaic Missile Weapons Group" would sound just fine to me.

Pistols requires the situation to be pliable to them for usage. Longarms is in the same boat. The problem for longarms is that the only suitable infiltration weapon in the group is shotguns which come with their own issue.

I'm a fan of consolidating weapon skills wherever it makes sense.

I would almost prefer the following for weapon skills.... Unarmed, Melee, Throwing, Pistols, Longarms, Heavy Weapons, Drawn (Archery/Crossbows). Then include a two tier specialization. The first tier includes a weapon group and the 2nd tier includes a specific weapon. Certain groups would not work as well due to a lack of options in them (most notably unarmed). I think that could be fixed by subdividing out weapon groups a bit more, especially among melee weapons (1 handed blade, 2 handed blade, etc).

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

If you consider a concealment rating of +2 small, then yes. I do not. Also, that Izom monster costs a ton, and my players tend to ditch weapons after a fight - could get really expensive over time with that thing.

[All4BigGuns]

Because unless you have a hard-on for shotguns, or are making a sniper, or want a "gunslinger" ... there's absolutely zero reason not to have Automatics, and very little reason to have anything but Automatics.

Possibly if the only thing you do is crunch numbers. If one is making a soldier, then they should have the entire group, and generally--at least from my experience--most civilians would go through something of a "progression" when learning to shoot. In terms of the skills, it'd probably go from Longarms (BB/Pellet guns and Shotguns) to Pistols to Automatics (and generally pretty rare getting all the way to that point).

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Most of the time? Yes, IMO and IMLE.

What das IMLE stand for? Well, looks like we disagree about this matter and we both have some experience with MGs (i was 4yrs in the Austrian Army, but i have only basic MG training).

[StealthSigma]

If you consider a concealment rating of +2 small, then yes. I do not. Also, that Izom monster costs a ton, and my players tend to ditch weapons after a fight - could get really expensive over time with that thing.

Knocking that down to a -3 is trivial and there's other options to inflict at least another -2 penalty on the perception check to find it. Add on top that's it's a check palming + agility opposed against intuition + perception (what gun character doesn't have an amped up agility score) and it's pretty easy to conceal.

That's all ignoring that other perception modifiers will apply so if you're going about in poorly illuminated areas you'll get even more penalties stacked onto the foe.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Possibly if the only thing you do is crunch numbers. If one is making a soldier, then they should have the entire group, and generally--at least from my experience--most civilians would go through something of a "progression" when learning to shoot. In terms of the skills, it'd probably go from Longarms (BB/Pellet guns and Shotguns) to Pistols to Automatics (and generally pretty rare getting all the way to that point).

Also depending on the country you learn to shoot - in Austria, most male civilians > 18yrs (~60-70%) have (limited) experience with automatics (assault rifle), and some with heavy weapons (mostly MG, some rocket launchers) and pistols (Medics, Machine Gunners, AFV Crewman, sports marksmenship), a few have longarms (snipers, hunters, sports marksmanship) or gunnery (AFV gunners) -> Compulsory military service, and a low rate of civilian owned firearms.

[Lionhearted]

Such we discovered why the Lined coat is one of the best armors in the basebook.

[_Pax._]

If you consider a concealment rating of +2 small, then yes. I do not.

Nothing you can't fix with a Barrel Reduction, a concealable holster, and a long coat (or equivalent).

Also, that Izom monster costs a ton, and my players tend to ditch weapons after a fight - could get really expensive over time with that thing.

So, go with Izom's RP-71. 4P, AP-1, FA capable, base price is only 750¥.

Add a personalised grip, auto-adjusting underbarrel weight, and that barrel reduction I mentioend. Then go with an Accessory GasVent 3. All told, you've got 4 points of RComp. Load it with Ex-ex, and you're rocking 5P/AP-2 attacks, BF for 8P, FA for 11P. Concealability is only 1 worse than a Heavy Pistol.

And, you can fire that, an SMG, an AR, and a BR all with the exact same skill. Which means you're likely to have that single skill higher, than the two skills you need if you actually go with a heavy pistol instead.

Also, not everyone throws their guns away after every run. My characters tend to go with Caseless ammo ..... and buy (or make) new barrels after every run. More than sufficient to throw the police off (or whoever), and allows them to play with much nicer, more-capable toys as well.

[_Pax._]

What das IMLE stand for? Well, looks like we disagree about this matter and we both have some experience with MGs (i was 4yrs in the Austrian Army, but i have only basic MG training).

IMLE = "in my limited experience". I've less experience with live weaposn than, say, Tymaeus. But I've more experience than most typical civilians here in the U.S. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[_Pax._]

Possibly if the only thing you do is crunch numbers. If one is making a soldier, then they should have the entire group, [...]

Absoltuely, positively not true.

I enlisted int he U.S. Army, remember. Picked the Combat Engineer (12B) MOS. And you know, there's only two weapons they train CEs with: grenades, and assault rifles. Everything else is optional.

Well, okay, "grenades, assault rifles, and blowing bridges up while the other unlucky S.O.B.'s are halfway across" ... ha!

and generally--at least from my experience--most civilians would go through something of a "progression" when learning to shoot. In terms of the skills, it'd probably go from Longarms (BB/Pellet guns and Shotguns) to Pistols to Automatics (and generally pretty rare getting all the way to that point).

Honestly, that's the biggest thing I miss from SR3 and earlier: the Skill Web, for figuring defaults.

Joe the Hunter, who at least has good skill with a sporting rifle and a shotgun, should do better than his identical twin, Bob the Accountant, who's never touched any sort of firearm in his life, when both of them pick up assault rifles to try and fight off a pack of ravenous ghouls down at the stuffer shack ...

[All4BigGuns]

Honestly, that's the biggest thing I miss from SR3 and earlier: the Skill Web, for figuring defaults.

I don't for the simple reason of the KISS principle. It is much better to just default to the attribute than to have to either memorize or look up what skill defaults to what skill and which ones go to the attribute.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Nothing you can't fix with a Barrel Reduction, a concealable holster, and a long coat (or equivalent).


So, go with Izom's RP-71. 4P, AP-1, FA capable, base price is only 750¥.

Add a personalised grip, auto-adjusting underbarrel weight, and that barrel reduction I mentioend. Then go with an Accessory GasVent 3. All told, you've got 4 points of RComp. Load it with Ex-ex, and you're rocking 5P/AP-2 attacks, BF for 8P, FA for 11P. Concealability is only 1 worse than a Heavy Pistol.

And, you can fire that, an SMG, an AR, and a BR all with the exact same skill. Which means you're likely to have that single skill higher, than the two skills you need if you actually go with a heavy pistol instead.

Also, not everyone throws their guns away after every run. My characters tend to go with Caseless ammo ..... and buy (or make) new barrels after every run. More than sufficient to throw the police off (or whoever), and allows them to play with much nicer, more-capable toys as well.

Well, we play a very black trenchcoat campaign in Manhatten. Using Ex-Ex or non-silenced fire gets a NYPD drone to them in less than 30s (unless in security Zone C or less). Also, this thing costs 4-5 times of an Ares Predator, and has 6 points of RC, not 4. You forgot to calculate the underbarrel weight.

[Lionhearted]

I don't see what prevents them from shooting the drone out of the sky, which is easier to do with a bigger gun.