Capacity on Imaging Scopes, SR4a Options

[StealthSigma]

I don't see what prevents them from shooting the drone out of the sky, which is easier to do with a bigger gun.

Well, if the drone is flying then it just needs to hover at an altitude of 63m and they can't hit it with their pistols. 70m and the drone will be safe from anyone who put a barrel extension on their pistol.

[Lionhearted]

Exactly! More dakka is the answer!

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Depending on the location, this is an option - not so much in most parts of manhatten, ofc. Every ***** thing in manhatten is monitored, and if you walk around without broadcasting your SIN, you get a police response. With combat drone backup, including a blimp sniper drone if heavy armament or resistance is detected.

[_Pax._]

Well, we play a very black trenchcoat campaign in Manhatten. Using Ex-Ex or non-silenced fire gets a NYPD drone to them in less than 30s (unless in security Zone C or less). Also, this thing costs 4-5 times of an Ares Predator, and has 6 points of RC, not 4. You forgot to calculate the underbarrel weight.

If you want subtle instead, the RP-71 is still suitable. For 2800¥, you can get an RP-71 with Electronic firing, an integral Suppressor, and a Reduced Barrel. Load it with SnS, and you're doing 6S(e) versus half their impact armor. Silently. With the option of going full-auto. And still using the same skill that drives your SMG (small, subtle, high ROF, reasonable damage), your AR (larger, louder, high ROF, good damage), and your BR (double-duty as an AR, and a Sport or Sniper rifle).

[Lionhearted]

I fail to see how more dakka wouldn't solve that...

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Sure, SnS. Want an MRSI Trollbow that shoots emotitoys? (I know that this makes no sense, but should show what my group thinks about SnS).

Also, a taser does exactly the same damage, but more silent. For 250nY incl. the laser sight, without the hassle of having a right license.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

I fail to see how more dakka wouldn't solve that...

Detecting the sniper drone before it kills you is the problem. Or before you are sprayed with various stun gas grenades. More dakka does not help with seeing stuff, it only motivates the other side to bring more dakka. And the other side has more dakka than you.

KE is eagerly to take the policing contract for Manhatten, if NYPD screws up by letting a terrorist attack happen in the city the Corporate Court resides in. NYPD has a reputation to loose, and unresolved terrorist attacks could prove fatal for them, especially if they are convicted of using less force as neccessary.

[_Pax._]

Also, a taser does exactly the same damage, but more silent. For 250nY incl. the laser sight, without the hassle of having a right license.

(a) Tasers have a much lower ammunition capacity - generally 4(m). The RP-71 has a capacity of 25©
(b) Reloading the RP-71 takes only two simple actions (one free and oen simple, if you get a smartgun). Reloading a Taser takes a simple and at least one complex action, IIRC.
© Tasers are _not_ more silent than a suppressed, electronic-firing gun.
(d) the RP-71 can fire SnS, or it can fire capsule rounds, or it can fire RFID Tag rounds, or it can fire Ex-Ex, or ... well, you get the idea. Tasers fire ONLY Taser darts.
(e) If needed, sticking the barrel of a machine pistol in someone's face, is going to be MUCH more intimidating than sticking the business end of a taser in the same person's face.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

a: true
b: Reloading a taser takes 1 complex action if you have AGI 4+, else 2.
c: actutally, thats GM fiat.
d: true
e: sticking a Defiance EX-Shocker into someones face inflicts 8-12S(e) (called shot) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
f: getting your licenses checked: not with a taser
g: 150nY vs ?
h: the right tool for the right task

[_Pax._]

a: true
b: Reloading a taser takes 1 complex action if you have AGI 4+, else 2.
c: actutally, thats GM fiat.
d: true
e: sticking a Defiance EX-Shocker into someones face inflicts 8-12S(e) (called shot) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
f: getting your licenses checked: not with a taser
g: 150nY vs ?
h: the right tool for the right task

c: no, it's RAW. An electronic firing, integral-suppressor MP imposes a -7 penalty to the perception pools of anyone trying to notice the firing of the gun; -9 if you go to the length of using subsonic ammunition. Tasers, lacking any of those options, universally impose a -0 penalty. Ergo, sensible or not? A fully-suppressed machine pistol is quieter than any taser ever made - even when firing Ex-Ex! (Note, btw: Ex-Ex isn't "microgrenades"; they're no louder hitting someone than a normal bullet. They just do nastier things to whatever they hit.)

e: you know precisely what I meant.

f: nor with a machine pistol if they never find it in the first place.

g: versus "not disposable". Hence, buying or making new barrels every so often, for probably about ... 150¥ a pop. Maybe 300¥.

h: the right tool for multiple tasks, means you have to own, and carry, fewer tools. "Multirole" is an asset, not a flaw.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

c: Well, what about a GM setting the threshold to hear a taser at 12? (I know, that is an exaggeration) Boom, its more silent. There is no given threshold for hearing a taser, therefore it is GM fiat. Same with the Ex-Ex (has a threshold 1 with +2 sound stands out in some way in my games).
f: Cyberwarescanner Rtg. 6. Costs less than your weapon, has lower avail of your weapon, works from 15m afar. Needs 1 hit on 6 dice to find your weapon, gets dp boni if you carry more.

[StealthSigma]

c: Well, what about a GM setting the threshold to hear a taser at 12? (I know, that is an exaggeration) Boom, its more silent. There is no given threshold for hearing a taser, therefore it is GM fiat. Same with the Ex-Ex (has a threshold 1 with +2 sound stands out in some way in my games).

Thresholds above 4 for a test would be highly unusual to say the least. The gun is still applying a -7 penalty while the taser is apply a -0. It means that the gun has a much better chance of forcing a longshot roll than the taser would.

[_Pax._]

c: Well, what about a GM setting the threshold to hear a taser at 12?

"actutally, thats GM fiat."

There is no given threshold for hearing a taser, therefore it is GM fiat.

Have yu actually read the rules? Apparently not, I have to say.

SR4A, page 136. Several tables, one of them has these entries:

"Obvious / Large / Loud", threshold 1 - examples: neon sign, running crowd, yelling, gunfire;

"Normal", threshold 2 - examples: street sign, average pedestrian, conversation, silenced gunfire;

"Obscure / Small / Muffled", threshold 3 - examples: item dropped under table, contact lens, whispering;

"Hidden / Micro / Silent", threshold 4 - examples: secret door, needle in a haystack, subvocal speech.

I have helpfully underlined the exampels related to sound. Now, I might grant Tasers a threshold of 2, the same as a silenced weapon normally gets. But not a 3, and certainly not higher - a taser shot is NOT as quiet as a whisper.

...

So both have that nice threshold of 2. But even with the +2 for "stands out", the silenced machine pistol still imposes a -5 (or greater) penalty to the observers' die pools, and the taser still has no such penalty.

Ergo, RAW? The taser is louder than a fully-suppressed machine pistol rocking full-auto ExEx.

f: Cyberwarescanner Rtg. 6. Costs less than your weapon, has lower avail of your weapon, works from 15m afar. Needs 1 hit on 6 dice to find your weapon, gets dp boni if you carry more.

And these are how common in a standard, ordinary Shadowrun game where the GM is not trying to make life unreasonably difficult for anyone with the slightest degree of cybernetic augmentation?

Also, easy way around THAT: Skin Pocket. Or, if you have a cyberlimb, a holster inside it. Millimeter Wave scanners don't penetrate the skin.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Also, easy way around THAT: Skin Pocket. Or, if you have a cyberlimb, a holster inside it. Millimeter Wave scanners don't penetrate the skin.

Well, if they dont penetrate the skin, how do they detect any internal cyberware? Like, for instance, a cranial commlink? Or a skillwire system?

[_Pax._]

Either (a) the writer didn't know what they were talking about, or (b) those implants may have some external component. Like a chip-slot for the skillwires, so you can use them without needing a separate datajack.

Personally, I lean towards (a). Millimeter Wave scanners, both passive and active, are right-now real-world technologies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millimeter_wave_scanner

And they don't penetrate skin; they aren't even being considered as replacements for X-ray machins in hospitals, for example, despite the very real health hazard exposure to X-ray radiation poses both to patients and technicians/operators.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sure. But is holding an LMG that different from holding a rifle?

Absolutely it is very different. This from lots of personal experience.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Pistols requires the situation to be pliable to them for usage. Longarms is in the same boat. The problem for longarms is that the only suitable infiltration weapon in the group is shotguns which come with their own issue.

I'm a fan of consolidating weapon skills wherever it makes sense.

I would almost prefer the following for weapon skills.... Unarmed, Melee, Throwing, Pistols, Longarms, Heavy Weapons, Drawn (Archery/Crossbows). Then include a two tier specialization. The first tier includes a weapon group and the 2nd tier includes a specific weapon. Certain groups would not work as well due to a lack of options in them (most notably unarmed). I think that could be fixed by subdividing out weapon groups a bit more, especially among melee weapons (1 handed blade, 2 handed blade, etc).

You are speaking of 2nd Edition here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

"Have yu actually read the rules? Apparently not, I have to say.

SR4A, page 136. Several tables, one of them has these entries:

"Obvious / Large / Loud", threshold 1 - examples: neon sign, running crowd, yelling, gunfire;

"Normal", threshold 2 - examples: street sign, average pedestrian, conversation, silenced gunfire;

"Obscure / Small / Muffled", threshold 3 - examples: item dropped under table, contact lens, whispering;

"Hidden / Micro / Silent", threshold 4 - examples: secret door, needle in a haystack, subvocal speech.

I have helpfully underlined the exampels related to sound. Now, I might grant Tasers a threshold of 2, the same as a silenced weapon normally gets. But not a 3, and certainly not higher - a taser shot is NOT as quiet as a whisper.

...

So both have that nice threshold of 2. But even with the +2 for "stands out", the silenced machine pistol still imposes a -5 (or greater) penalty to the observers' die pools, and the taser still has no such penalty.

Ergo, RAW? The taser is louder than a fully-suppressed machine pistol rocking full-auto ExEx.


And these are how common in a standard, ordinary Shadowrun game where the GM is not trying to make life unreasonably difficult for anyone with the slightest degree of cybernetic augmentation?

Also, easy way around THAT: Skin Pocket. Or, if you have a cyberlimb, a holster inside it. Millimeter Wave scanners don't penetrate the skin.

I would actually put a threshold of 4 for the Taser. It is a SILENT weapon, not a SILENCED weapon. Still, with the -7 to -9+ of the Silenced SMG, it is likely that they are both nigh impossible to hear for the average person.

[Halinn]

Detecting the sniper drone before it kills you is the problem. Or before you are sprayed with various stun gas grenades. More dakka does not help with seeing stuff, it only motivates the other side to bring more dakka. And the other side has more dakka than you.

If you can't at least level a city on a whim, you're not packing enuff dakka (and if you can, you still need moar dakka)

[StealthSigma]

If you can't at least level a city on a whim, you're not packing enuff dakka (and if you can, you still need moar dakka)

You can nevah git enuf dakka.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If you can't at least level a city on a whim, you're not packing enuff dakka (and if you can, you still need moar dakka)

Just in case, of course. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[_Pax._]

I would actually put a threshold of 4 for the Taser. It is a SILENT weapon, not a SILENCED weapon. Still, with the -7 to -9+ of the Silenced SMG, it is likely that they are both nigh impossible to hear for the average person.

A taser is NOT completely silent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdjVCbD0So0

It makes about as much noise as a suppressed gunshot when fired, and then there's the sound of the capacitor pulsing charges into the target. Certainly, it's not quieter than whispering.