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> Advice on Building a Wendigo?
Umidori
post Jan 11 2013, 07:24 AM
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So I've wanted to play an Infected for a long time, but for various reasons have never gotten around to it. But now I think I've finally settled on going with a Wendigo and doing my best to make the best use of the powers that come with it, and could use some thoughts on optimization and general troubleshooting.

First off, magic.

Wendigo get the Magician Quality for free, or the Mystic Adept quality if they're already Adepts. I figure it's best to go with the Mystic Adept, because as an Essence Draining infected, it gives me a lot of power and flexibility when feeding. I can use drained essence to temporarily boost my magic and attributes, and that extra magic can either go into boosting my spellcasting or to my adept powers. Awesome.

However, I'm not sure how to handle things like my powers (both adept and "critter"). They're based off of my Magic attribute, but as a Mystic Adept, how do you calculate that? Is it my total number of magic points, the sum of both "Magician" points and "Adept" points? Or do I perhaps only count my "Adept" points toward adept powers, and exclude the spellcasting points? But then what about the critter powers, which are clearly designed to work off of "magician" points, as non-adept Wendigo clearly demonstrate?

Next is Metamagic.

So you can't initiate at chargen, so that's right out. But what about the bonuses from various Adept Ways? In particular I'm keen on the Invisible Way, with which I would "receive a +1 to Initiate grade for purposes of the Masking and Flexible Signature techniques." How is this meant to be read? If you are at initiate grade 0, does the +1 to the grade still apply? And does the bonus itself allow you to use the technique without having to choose it as a learned metamagic?

A few other matters.

Can Wendigo shave, or does even their fur Regenerate?
Can they handle ferrous metals while wearing gloves?
Can the Disguise skill be used to conceal a Wendigo's infected nature, via obscuring clothing, masks, etc?
For that matter do they need specially sized or adapted clothing, armor, and gear?

Perhaps more importantly, can they use clothing to protect themselves from their sunlight allergy? How about spells? If I cast Improved Invisibility on myself, does that protect against sunlight since it "creates an actual warping of light around the subject"? How about the Physical Mask spell? How about Shadow? What about Visibility modifiers like smoke, rain, and mist, or for that matter, the Mist spell? And if I Shapechange into some variety of critter, do I still suffer my allergies, and can I still use my innate and adept powers?

I think my final area of interest is in Blood Magic, specifically the Cannibalize and Power Bleed adept powers, as they fit the Wendigo lore perfectly, but they are part of the Twisted Paths of magic and very much not intended for PCs. I plan on just setting this interest aside for later consideration, but would be interested to hear any stories or advice from those who have actually used Blood Magic in their own characters or campaigns previously.

~Umi
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NiL_FisK_Urd
post Jan 11 2013, 10:01 AM
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1. For Critter Powers, it is definitely your total Magic score. For max. Adept power ratings, you also use your total score. Max. Force for Spellcasting is tricky/debated, i would also let the full magic attribute count, others use only the spellcasting part of it.
2. If you do not have a gun, your +1 to shooting things does nothing. Same with metamagics. Try to persuade your GM to use karmagen and letting you initiate.
3. I would go with Regeneration
4. I think so, but as a GM, i would let the player roll an agility test every time he tries this. On a fail/glitch, he touches it with bare skin.
5. I would let them try, but with a high threshold. Being a 2.5m high white furry humanoid is not that easy to conceal.
6. What about "Alleviate Allergy"? SM, p. 169
7. If you shapechange, you still get all your Qualities and powers, unless it specifically says otherwise.
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Tias
post Jan 11 2013, 10:07 AM
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I strongly suspect that you can't get a "freebie" metamagic without actually initiating - otherwise, this would be a huge loop-hole balance-wise.

Take the Way, get stuck in, fuck people up, get karma. Initiate. Then "? = Profit!"
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Halinn
post Jan 11 2013, 11:24 AM
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Yeah, no free metamagic. It's not 0 + 1, it's undefined/null/empty set + 1

On the magic split thing, NiL_FisK_Urd has it right. Critter powers use total, maximum adept power rating use total, adept powers that roll magic+something use partial, max Force uses total (FAQ disagrees, but that is because it is a ruling from SR4 days, but SR4A changed how the mystic adept split works), and the spellcasting roll uses partial.
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Manunancy
post Jan 11 2013, 11:54 AM
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I assume you have already taken that step, but just in case : No matter how you build it, make sure the GM and the other players are fine with the notion - they rank even lower than ghouls as far as repute go and from what I've read they're even more limited in their diet, making it more difficult to hide what they are. Being an infected is already frowned upon, but the wendigos are probably very close, if not at the top, of the 'shoot on sight as soon as identified' list amongst the infected.

Just rechecked - as they're omnivorous it might make things easiter as in a pinch the can eat like regular metahumans. The catch is that it seems they have very hard time doing that. Making their culinary habits even more questionable as they engage in it by choice (oh well, I'd say more addiction than choice, but basically they have no bioogical imperative to do it, unlike the ghouls - it's not 'eat peoples or die').
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Umidori
post Jan 11 2013, 12:07 PM
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QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Jan 11 2013, 03:01 AM) *
5. I would let them try, but with a high threshold. Being a 2.5m high white furry humanoid is not that easy to conceal.
Well, I imagine I'd disguise as a troll, to compensate for the height and size, and with the proper clothing fur isn't too hard to cover up. I admit I couldn't attend a fancy dinner party in a tux, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to think I could at least could walk around many streets in a big trenchcoat, gloves, boots, and a headcovering and facemask of somekind, with no one the wiser. (Unless they peep me astrally, which is why I want the Metamagics to look mundane.)

The idea is to have a non-magical way to be able to travel in low security areas without getting shot and without standing out astrally. At least until I can get Extended Masking to conceal sustained spells like Physical Mask.

Also, Disguise doesn't actually have a threshold, rather it's a straight success test in which the number of hits sets the perception test threshold for others to see through the disguise. The GM of course has the power to dictate if your disguise attempt is actually possible, or what materials you need to pull it off, but that's more to prevent stuff like a troll trying to disguise as a dwarf using a shoestring and a brown paper bag.

QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Jan 11 2013, 03:01 AM) *
6. What about "Alleviate Allergy"? SM, p. 169
Alleviate Allergy is nice, but it's one more spell to sustain. It's great for things where contact with the allergen is just plain unavoidable and you just don't want to suffer the ill effects, but I'm looking for ways to keep things from getting that far along, or ways to avoid stupid situations like being Invisible because I'm magically bending light around myself, but still the sunlight affects me.

QUOTE (Manunancy @ Jan 11 2013, 04:54 AM) *
Wendigos are probably very close, if not at the top, of the 'shoot on sight as soon as identified' list amongst the infected.

Exactly why I want as many options for concealing my nature as possible. Redundancy, one might say.

QUOTE (Manunancy @ Jan 11 2013, 04:54 AM) *
Just rechecked - as they're omnivorous it might make things easier as in a pinch the can eat like regular metahumans. The catch is that it seems they have very hard time doing that. Making their culinary habits even more questionable as they engage in it by choice (oh well, I'd say more addiction than choice, but basically they have no bioogical imperative to do it, unlike the ghouls - it's not 'eat peoples or die').

Technically wendigo still have a dietary requirement for metahuman flesh, just like ghouls. And then they also have Essence Loss, like vampires, but unlike vamps can't get away with just drinking blood. They're pretty much the hardest Infected to feed, short of Bandersnatchii. (Because seriously, where the fuzz are you going to find regular supplies of Sasquatch flesh outside of the few remote sasquatch population centers?)

That said, thank goodness for Renfield.

Good stuff so far, my thanks. Although I am still curious about spell effects that might coincidentally block out sunlight. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi
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NiL_FisK_Urd
post Jan 11 2013, 12:29 PM
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QUOTE (Halinn @ Jan 11 2013, 12:24 PM) *
adept powers that roll magic+something use partial

IIRC these use total as well
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Halinn
post Jan 11 2013, 12:46 PM
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QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Jan 11 2013, 01:29 PM) *
IIRC these use total as well

It seems that you're right. It's a fairly minor point, though, since very few adept powers use the magic attribute for any rolls.
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Neraph
post Jan 11 2013, 01:50 PM
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QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Jan 11 2013, 04:01 AM) *
1. For Critter Powers, it is definitely your total Magic score. For max. Adept power ratings, you also use your total score. Max. Force for Spellcasting is tricky/debated, i would also let the full magic attribute count, others use only the spellcasting part of it.
2. If you do not have a gun, your +1 to shooting things does nothing. Same with metamagics. Try to persuade your GM to use karmagen and letting you initiate.
3. I would go with Regeneration
4. I think so, but as a GM, i would let the player roll an agility test every time he tries this. On a fail/glitch, he touches it with bare skin.
5. I would let them try, but with a high threshold. Being a 2.5m high white furry humanoid is not that easy to conceal.
6. What about "Alleviate Allergy"? SM, p. 169
7. If you shapechange, you still get all your Qualities and powers, unless it specifically says otherwise.

I agree on nearly every point.

1. For spellcasting I use the partial, but max determines Overcasting. It's just a little fewer dice for the Spellcasting Test is all.
3. Fur does not regenerate because A) it is not living tissue, and B) shaving does not cause damage (on purpose - your nicks would regen, but not the hair).
4. I would not allow it unless the gloves gave dice to Chemical Resistance or something. I'd only do this for ease of gameplay.
5. With a Evo HEL suit and a respirator it's pretty easy to conceal who/what you are. You'd probably be able to disguise yourself as a troll pretty easily, being (nearly) the same height as them.

As a final note, remember that Special Infected ("SI" - those with Essence Drain) are able to re-write their Adept abilities and their Power/Magic split as MysAds. For example, you have a SI with Mystic Armor 4 and two points in Spellcasting. He Essence Drains his Magic to a 7, gaining 3 points, which he puts 2 points in Combat Sense and 1 more in Spellcasting. When his magic goes back down, it triggers the losing Magic function of the rules (since there's no clause that states you lose the same Magic points you boosted, like there is in the Adept metamagic [...Infusion? I don't want to crack open my book for it]) stating that you lose Magic and therefore the Adept chooses what he loses. In the above case, the Adept chooses to lose three points of his Magic, leaving him at Mystic Armor 4, Combat Sense 2, and no Spellcasting. Alternatively, he could have lost all of his Mystic Armor and two points of Combat Sense, leaving him at Combat Sense 2 and Spellcasting 3.

EDIT: Also, you may be able to get a Power Pact and pick up Aura Masking. Talk to your GM about whether or not the access to the Power would last more than 24 hours.
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Neraph
post Jan 11 2013, 02:01 PM
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QUOTE (Umidori @ Jan 11 2013, 06:07 AM) *
Technically wendigo still have a dietary requirement for metahuman flesh, just like ghouls. And then they also have Essence Loss, like vampires, but unlike vamps can't get away with just drinking blood. They're pretty much the hardest Infected to feed, short of Bandersnatchii. (Because seriously, where the fuzz are you going to find regular supplies of Sasquatch flesh outside of the few remote sasquatch population centers?)

That said, thank goodness for Renfield.

Something bears clarification: Dietary Requirement and Essence Loss are NOT the same thing! Dietary Requirement states "you must eat X in order to live," whereas the text in Essence Drain that has you confused is "often involves a token exchange of bodily fluids like blood." Vampires are not required to drink blood to stave off Essence Loss - that's something that happens automatically every month. Dietary Requirement can be met with Nutrition, where the issue of Essence Drain is a separate and different issue to cover. Also, no actual biting/blood sucking/flesh eating has to be done in order to drain Essence - physical contact is the only thing that must be maintained.

Renfield is a dirty little thing. You can get a 1/6 hobo contact, then get them addicted to Renfield. You can now spend your Essence to make doses and use your very own Hobo Essence Battery to drain as much Essence as you need to fuel your +6 Magic every 12 hours. The best part is that the hobo never dies.
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Stingray
post Jan 11 2013, 02:41 PM
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..if you are trying to pose as troll,ask GM for allowing the SURGE..if so, adding Horns would help it.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)
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Lionhearted
post Jan 11 2013, 05:34 PM
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Disguising the apparently outlandish, isn't that what critter form (I think you can have metatypes as your chosen form) and Physical mask is for?
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Umidori
post Jan 11 2013, 05:54 PM
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QUOTE (Stingray @ Jan 11 2013, 08:41 AM) *
..if you are trying to pose as troll,ask GM for allowing the SURGE..if so, adding Horns would help it.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)
An excellent idea, but I have no clue where I'd find the BP for it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

QUOTE (Neraph @ Jan 11 2013, 08:01 AM) *
Something bears clarification: Dietary Requirement and Essence Loss are NOT the same thing!
Wasn't meaning to suggest they were. Guess I wasn't terribly clear in how I worded it. All I meant was that for Vamps and Wendigo both having Essence Loss, the Vamps have the easier Dietary Requirement of only needing blood, rather than flesh. Hence why Wendigo are so hard to "feed", both literally and figuratively.

QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Jan 11 2013, 11:34 AM) *
Disguising the apparently outlandish, isn't that what critter form (I think you can have metatypes as your chosen form) and Physical mask is for?
I did address this above, but having the ability to conceal my infected nature via mundane methods does offer a bit more flexibility, and at the very least redundancy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi
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Lionhearted
post Jan 11 2013, 06:09 PM
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Disguise as a sasquatch (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Neraph
post Jan 11 2013, 06:14 PM
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QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Jan 11 2013, 11:34 AM) *
Disguising the apparently outlandish, isn't that what critter form (I think you can have metatypes as your chosen form) and Physical mask is for?

Yes you can get metatypes from Critter Form, but for some reason it's a hot-button issue on these forums.

QUOTE (Umidori @ Jan 11 2013, 11:54 AM) *
Wasn't meaning to suggest they were. Guess I wasn't terribly clear in how I worded it. All I meant was that for Vamps and Wendigo both having Essence Loss, the Vamps have the easier Dietary Requirement of only needing blood, rather than flesh. Hence why Wendigo are so hard to "feed", both literally and figuratively.

Ok. I've had to deal with people who can't get the difference before. And again, Nutrition.
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Umidori
post Jan 11 2013, 06:15 PM
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I dunno. I think I'd get less attention dressed up as a "troll" in a kimono with a burlap sack over his head than I would as a sasquatch.

Also, the only thing worse than not being able to speak is having to pretend to not be able to speak.

~Umi
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Neraph
post Jan 11 2013, 06:17 PM
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Trodes + commlink + speaker = cyber-voice.
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Umidori
post Jan 11 2013, 06:20 PM
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I'm also pretty sure that sasquatches don't have claws and, quote, "dagger-like fangs". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi
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Lionhearted
post Jan 11 2013, 06:34 PM
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QUOTE (Umidori @ Jan 11 2013, 07:20 PM) *
I'm also pretty sure that sasquatches don't have claws and, quote, "dagger-like fangs". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi

That's why you're disguising! fake teeth and... uh I'll get back to you on the claws.
I thought sasquatches could imitate any sound they want, and they're sapient, so they could learn to speak... no?
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jan 11 2013, 07:07 PM
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QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Jan 11 2013, 11:34 AM) *
That's why you're disguising! fake teeth and... uh I'll get back to you on the claws.
I thought sasquatches could imitate any sound they want, and they're sapient, so they could learn to speak... no?


Being able to mimic sounds does not equate to actual Speach. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Manunancy
post Jan 11 2013, 07:23 PM
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An extra problem is that being able to hide what you are from the bystanders or the odd cop car will probably not cut the mustard with your teammates - and there's a high chance that once they figure out you're a wendigo they kick you out (possibly with extreme prejudice) - because the well know habits of wendigos to build cannibal cults for support means they're bound to earn a repute for being cannibals if you ver get figured out (or at least to be strongly suspected of being). Which is the sort of repute that can quickly lead to troubles and will drive the job offers you get toward the 'unsavory' end of the spectrum.
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Stingray
post Jan 11 2013, 07:51 PM
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QUOTE (Umidori @ Jan 11 2013, 07:54 PM) *
An excellent idea, but I have no clue where I'd find the BP for it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Wasn't meaning to suggest they were. Guess I wasn't terribly clear in how I worded it. All I meant was that for Vamps and Wendigo both having Essence Loss, the Vamps have the easier Dietary Requirement of only needing blood, rather than flesh. Hence why Wendigo are so hard to "feed", both literally and figuratively.

I did address this above, but having the ability to conceal my infected nature via mundane methods does offer a bit more flexibility, and at the very least redundancy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi

Horns is from Runner's Companion and is positive metagenetic quality (5 BP) ,but wendigo is classified as critter so it is is up to GM allowing it or not ..
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Neraph
post Jan 11 2013, 08:26 PM
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QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Jan 11 2013, 12:34 PM) *
I thought sasquatches could imitate any sound they want, and they're sapient, so they could learn to speak... no?


QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jan 11 2013, 01:07 PM) *
Being able to mimic sounds does not equate to actual Speach. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yeah, there's Plot Magic at work that disallows sasquaches to understand spoken word but allows them to comprehend sign language, despite the two being nearly identical. They'll understand a certain hand motion to understand chair, but this species who's main claim to fame is the ability to perfectly replicate any sound it ever hears can't understand the word "chair."

It's Plot Magic. And unbased in reality ("Whether signed or spoken language is investigated, the location of brain damage seems to have remarkably similar (and specific) effects." - that is, the same part of the brain that tracks spoken language tracks sign language also).

QUOTE (Stingray @ Jan 11 2013, 01:51 PM) *
Horns is from Runner's Companion and is positive metagenetic quality (5 BP) ,but wendigo is classified as critter so it is is up to GM allowing it or not ..

He wasn't saying he couldn't find it, he was saying that he'd have difficulty affording it because the rest of his build is so BP-intensive.
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Stingray
post Jan 11 2013, 08:50 PM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Jan 11 2013, 10:26 PM) *
Yeah, there's Plot Magic at work that disallows sasquaches to understand spoken word but allows them to comprehend sign language, despite the two being nearly identical. They'll understand a certain hand motion to understand chair, but this species who's main claim to fame is the ability to perfectly replicate any sound it ever hears can't understand the word "chair."

It's Plot Magic. And unbased in reality ("Whether signed or spoken language is investigated, the location of brain damage seems to have remarkably similar (and specific) effects." - that is, the same part of the brain that tracks spoken language tracks sign language also).


He wasn't saying he couldn't find it, he was saying that he'd have difficulty affording it because the rest of his build is so BP-intensive.

ok..does Critters have same thing as Metavariants?.. (free use of metagenetic Qualities /wo taking the Surge Quality (inside 35 BP limit)
if so,maxing the negative qualities usually helps..
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Umidori
post Jan 11 2013, 10:11 PM
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Technically you don't count as a Critter, you're an Ork with the Infected: Wendigo positive quality.

~Umi
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