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> New Full Auto Rules, Let me know what you all think.
Bushw4cker
post Jan 11 2013, 09:16 PM
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One of my biggest pet peeves since second edition has been the full auto rules. I think 4th edition does them a little better with adding wide and narrow bursts to the rules, but still in my opinion makes firing a weapon on full auto very impractical, and for Drones or having tons of recoil comp Full Auto is way too deadly. Another one of my beefs with Current Full Auto rules is that modern fully automatic weapons can easily empty a clip in a matter of a few seconds. I don’t want Shadowrun rules to try to completely emulate real life but I would like them to be a little more realistic. Also my House Rules let characters, that don’t have multiple initiative passes, to have more fun with automatic weapons. I have an example using Sprawl Ganger archetype against 4 corporate security grunts. Then the same Sprawl Ganger against a Drone. I used my rules and the book rules. I used an automatic dice roller for the dice.

NICK’S FULL AUTO RULES

Characters firing full auto, if they start in the first Initiative pass, get a total of 4 initiative passes, even if they don’t normally get extra passes. The only thing that a character acting on these extra passes can do is continuing firing at the same target on full auto or stop firing. Each extra initiative pass that a character continues firing full auto adds a -2 cumulative dice pool modifier. So a character that normally has only one initiative pass that continues firing into the 2nd pass receives a -2 modifier, on the 3rd a -4, and on the 4th a -6 modifier. If a character starts firing full auto on the 2nd initiative pass he/she only gets 2 extra passes, and so on. Augmented speed freaks benefit by being able to change targets, not add up negative modifiers, and perform other actions. Characters roll Weapon Skill + Agility + Recoil Comp +/- modifiers. Recoil comp is limited to characters weapon skill, so a character with firearms 2, could only benefit from 2 points of compensated recoil. Weapons with high rates of fire (Super Machine Guns and Mini-guns.) receive extra dice for every bullet over 10 fired in an initiative pass. So a Super Machine Gun gets +2 dice and a Mini-gun gets + 5 dice. Damage is limited by the number of bullet fired, so if a HK-227X fired on full auto only has 2 rounds left in the clip, the max damage it could do in that pass is 6P. Tracer rounds add +3 to dice pool when firing beyond short range, but damage is limited to -3 for Automatics, -4 Super Machine Guns, and -5 for Mini-Guns. Tracer rounds are also not compatible with Smartlinks. Vehicles and Drones firing full auto roll Sensor + Gunnery x 2 for Jumped in Rigger. Autonomous Drones roll Pilot + Targeting x 2. Remote Controlled Drones roll Command + Gunnery x 2. Autonomous Drones (That Have 3 Initiative Passes) would get a -2 dice pool firing full auto on a 4th Initiative Pass.

A Character with only one initiative Pass:
Character rolls in 1st Initiative Pass: Weapon Skill + Agility +* Recoil Comp +/- Modifiers
Character rolls on 2nd Initiative Pass: Weapon Skill + Agility +* Recoil Comp +/- Modifiers -2
Character rolls on 3rd Initiative Pass: Weapon Skill + Agility +* Recoil Comp +/- Modifiers -4
Character rolls on 4th Initiative Pass: Weapon Skill + Agility + *Recoil Comp +/- Modifiers -6

A Character with two initiative Passes:
Character rolls in 1st Initiative Pass: Weapon Skill + Agility +* Recoil Comp +/- Modifiers
Character rolls on 2nd Initiative Pass: Weapon Skill + Agility +* Recoil Comp +/- Modifiers
Character rolls on 3rd Initiative Pass: Weapon Skill + Agility +* Recoil Comp +/- Modifiers -2
Character rolls on 4th Initiative Pass: Weapon Skill + Agility + *Recoil Comp +/- Modifiers -4

*Every bullet over 10 rounds fired per initiative pass adds to dice pool. So super machine guns get +2 dice, and miniguns get an extra +5.
*Recoil Comp bonus limited to weapon skill. So a character with 2 in Firearms Skill group could only benefit from 2pts of recoil comp.
*Damage Limited to number of bullets fired. So a 5P gun that fires on full auto that has only 2 rounds left in the clip, can only do up to 6P damage.

Corporate Security Unit vs Sprawl Ganger

Here’s an example using first the book rules, then my rules.

[ Spoiler ]
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Draco18s
post Jan 11 2013, 09:20 PM
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QUOTE (Bushw4cker @ Jan 11 2013, 04:16 PM) *
Here’s an example using first the book rules, then my rules.

[ hide]


Try [ spoiler] instead.
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Bushw4cker
post Jan 11 2013, 09:28 PM
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THANKS ))...now tell me what you think )
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Umidori
post Jan 11 2013, 10:07 PM
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Now, I haven't actually read your full rules suggestion yet, so no judgement or opinion on it yet. (I'm sleep deprived, prolly gonna crash, I'll read it when I wake up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )

But at a glance, and just snap thinking about the topic in general... Do you really find FA all that problematic?

With machine guns, you're already using big, hard to conceal, hard to find, expensive, illegal firearms that require the Heavy Weapons skill and which incur doubled modifiers for any uncompensated recoil, which can only be avoided with additional weapon mods or accessories. That's a lot of inconvenience wrapped up in those weapons, and the single tradeoff is the ability to dish out heavy damage in one burst, or make a weaker shot incredibly hard to dodge.

For smaller FA guns, chiefly Machine Pistols, SMGs, and Assault Rifles, it becomes difficult or even impossible to use them on full auto without sacrificing dice to recoil. You simply can't mod or accessorize most of the available guns enough to compensate fully. So yeah, again, you gain a damage boost or make the enemy lose dice to dodge, but it comes at the cost of your own dice.

I dunno. I think on average I'd be more frightened of two short bursts from an Ares Alpha than I would be of a full auto burst.

~Umi
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Falconer
post Jan 12 2013, 12:04 AM
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Having looked at it... no I don't like it... RC is too easy to come by. It makes automatics even more broken by giving free IP's to people who shouldn't have them.

It's sustained fire over multiple IP bits are already covered by suppressing fire area attack rules.

You create more problems than you solve with this.
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Bushw4cker
post Jan 12 2013, 12:30 AM
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The biggest problem with full auto rules is vehicle and drone mounted Automatic Weapons. They are way overpowered. There is no way a LMG should be able to do more damage than a LAW rocket. (15P -1, on full auto narrow burst vs LAW Rocket 12P -2/-6. ) My rules make it easier to hit someone with Full Auto, but make getting hit at least survivable. I think they are more realistic and a lot more fun. How many players ever use full auto fire the way the rules are now? How many players would rather have an LMG mounted on their vehicle than an assault cannon? I think my examples prove which rules are better. Current SR420A rules, a combat veteran (Rating 4 Skill) with Average Agility(3) couldn't hit someone at point blank range with full auto with an AK-97 unless he makes a long shot test. (7 + 2 - 9)
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Bushw4cker
post Jan 12 2013, 12:36 AM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Jan 12 2013, 01:04 AM) *
Having looked at it... no I don't like it... RC is too easy to come by. It makes automatics even more broken by giving free IP's to people who shouldn't have them.

It's sustained fire over multiple IP bits are already covered by suppressing fire area attack rules.

You create more problems than you solve with this.


Recoil comp bonus is limited by weapon skill.
It's not really free Initiative passes, you just get a few extra rolls to try to hit your target. The time it takes to empty a whole clip would take a couple seconds.
Suppressive fire is different than trying to empty a clip into your target.

Do you or your players ever fire weapons (Not vehicle mounted) on full auto fire?
Have you ever thought its way to easy to kill someone with a drone?
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Miri
post Jan 12 2013, 01:14 AM
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When calculating drone dice pools to shoot, dont forget to take into account the -3 dice for shooting at a man sized target per the table on page 171 of 4A.
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Bushw4cker
post Jan 12 2013, 01:33 AM
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QUOTE (Miri @ Jan 12 2013, 02:14 AM) *
When calculating drone dice pools to shoot, dont forget to take into account the -3 dice for shooting at a man sized target per the table on page 171 of 4A.


That is for sensor targeting. Which is more useful against larger vehicles.
I reread page few times to make sure I was right
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_Pax._
post Jan 12 2013, 01:50 AM
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Bushwhacker is right.

If using good ol' visual targetting (yes, cameras count), there's no such modification.
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Falconer
post Jan 12 2013, 02:06 AM
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Pax... the rules make no such distinction.

The passive targetting mods don't care what sensor you are using.

It's one of the few ways to keep rigger attack pools sane... (+2 specialty +2 hotsim, +2 control rig, +2 smartlink if allowed.... and I can keep going)... all before sensor + gunnery and the freebie extra RC a drone provides. A -3 penalty to hit on top of all that isn't a lot.
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_Pax._
post Jan 12 2013, 02:28 AM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Jan 11 2013, 09:06 PM) *
Pax... the rules make no such distinction.

Yes, actually, they do. Rather explicitly - the rules for Sensor Targeting say that a character can use the vehicles sensors to assist them ... not that they must do so.

QUOTE
It's one of the few ways to keep rigger attack pools sane... (+2 specialty +2 hotsim, +2 control rig, +2 smartlink if allowed.... and I can keep going)...

Highest sensor rating in SR4A or Arsenal?
SR4A has one at 5, and it's a T-bird. Everything else caps out at 3 ... or less. Usually less.

Arsenal has one at 4 - and it's the quarter-million-nuyen Assassin Drone. Everything else, again, is 3 or less. Usually less, still.

Contrariwise, what kind of Agility can a dedicated gun-bunny get? Why, they can get a SIXTEEN (Elf, Exceptional attribute, Surge, and Genetic Optimisation - max umagumented Agility of 11. Times 1.5, round down, and you have 16.)

Plus the same smartlink and specialty bonusses.

...

So, assuming a skill of 6+specialty, and a smartlink ... the Rigger gets to play with a DP of 17 (sensor 3, Gunnery 6, specialised +2, smartlink +2, HotVR +2, VCR +2), while the gun-bunny gets a DP of 26 (16 agility, 6 skill, specialty +2, smartlink +2) ... and you think it's teh rigger who needs a -3 penalty to keep their attack pool sane ...?!?

Good grief.
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Miri
post Jan 12 2013, 03:17 AM
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If you are going to give that minmaxed gunbunny a 16 agility why are you not allowing the rigger to trick out his drone just as much with an after market rating 6 sensor?

Also, if you use plain old camera's to take your Gunnery test what second stat do you use as your skill+attribute base?
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_Pax._
post Jan 12 2013, 03:24 AM
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QUOTE (Miri @ Jan 11 2013, 10:17 PM) *
If you are going to give that minmaxed gunbunny a 16 agility why are you not allowing the rigger to trick out his drone just as much with an after market rating 6 sensor?

First, show me the rules that define exactly how to upgrade a sensor from 3 to 6. I'll give you a hint: there aren't any. There's only a vague grey area, that peopel interpret one way or the other, to suit their own ends.

Then, tell me how even a DP of 20 for the Rigger, before penalties for Signature, meansthe Rigger needs a penalty but the gunbunny who still has SIX more dice, doesn't.
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Falconer
post Jan 12 2013, 03:42 AM
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Because the gunbunny is actually putting themselves in danger... while the rigger is hiding in their armored cocooon.

That's why. Its' the difference between being there in person and hiding behind a tricked out drone... with a ton of bonuses not even from the drone... even in an extremely cheap little drone. +8 dice from things the gunbunny can't even touch.


And I'm not referring to the rules for active targetting... I'm referring to the passive sensor targetting rules.
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Miri
post Jan 12 2013, 03:48 AM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Jan 11 2013, 09:42 PM) *
Because the gunbunny is actually putting themselves in danger... while the rigger is hiding in their armored cocooon.

That's why. Its' the difference between being there in person and hiding behind a tricked out drone... with a ton of bonuses not even from the drone... even in an extremely cheap little drone. +8 dice from things the gunbunny can't even touch.


And I'm not referring to the rules for active targetting... I'm referring to the passive sensor targetting rules.


The rigger is most certainly in danger, getting hacked, getting shot and flubbing the biofeedback roll, getting traced and stabbed in the face while sitting in said armored cocoon, getting jammed and losing contact with the drone.

Even the passive sensor targeting rules say the Signature mods apply. I'd still like to know what other stat to use if I'm going to make a Gunnery test while using plain old visual cameras.
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Falconer
post Jan 12 2013, 04:09 AM
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Miri... that's the point... if you're the rigger... you're either using passive or active targetting. And all your arguments are pretty moot... where am i hiding my body... inside a Crashcart large drone with a valkryie module... they're sneaking up on that drone as well? The one you're directly plugged into to get to your body... with the 12 vehicle armor, and 20 armor cocoon with built in rating 6 medkit which can do first aid on you? So no the rigger is rarely in any serious danger compared to an actual gunbunny who doesn't have the luxury of vehicle armor protecting him. Dumpshock... please it's more of an annoyance than a serious threat to the rigger...



The cameras are part of the sensor suite... and the rules make no differentiation. I listed 8 dice of potential positives only one of which has limited link to the drone (smartgun).

If you use active targetting... you can get even MORE bonus dice on top of this!!! Active targetting is simply passive targetting with bonus dice from the sensor lock-on roll... which can and normally will completely negate that -3 passive targeting penalty. And if you are... it's only a simple action to do the lockon.


If you get to simple action to lock-on say +3 dice... now we're at +11 dice even before sensor plus skill... toss in tacnet (trivially easy for drones and riggers to do all by their lonesome) if you allow tacnets to give bonuses another easy few dice... all before doing the sensor + skill!. (the rules for tacnets do not say they do... it says they can as a laundry list of possible ways a GM might apply them)

Pax's point is correct, the rules say you CAN use passive targetting... your other option in the book is active targetting.
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_Pax._
post Jan 12 2013, 04:15 AM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Jan 11 2013, 10:42 PM) *
Because the gunbunny is actually putting themselves in danger... while the rigger is hiding in their armored cocooon.

Says who?

The rigger could be crouched down behind something, right there in the thick of it, operating a drone that's only two meters away from their own self.

Not to mention the danger of potentially being attacked in cybercombat.

Nor that those "cheap little drones" really are NOT that cheap ... and are generally not at all durable in combat, unless you make them LESS cheap.

QUOTE
+8 dice from things the gunbunny can't even touch.

Eight? I counted FOUR:

Hot Sim VR, +2
Vehicle Control Rig, +2

Smartlinks and specialisations are not exclusive to Riggers.


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Umidori
post Jan 12 2013, 04:25 AM
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QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Jan 11 2013, 09:15 PM) *
Says who?

The rigger could be crouched down behind something, right there in the thick of it, operating a drone that's only two meters away from their own self.
That's true, Pax. The rigger could be in the thick of it, slumped in a heap two meters away from the drone he's controlling with Hot Sim VR.

I have no idea why any sane rigger would be, but it is at least possible. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi
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Miri
post Jan 12 2013, 04:35 AM
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Lets look at something nicely optimized.
Technomancer rigger with 2 ranks of Immersion to simulate the Control Rig and Multiprocessing.

Free action to active lock since it is a perception check and a matrix action.
Perception 6, Spec 2, Hot Sim 2, TM Bonus 2, Immersion 2, Multiprocessing 3, Vision Enhancement 3, Sensor 6, Signature mod -3 = 23 so lets call it 5 dice on the lock.

Take the shot.
Sensor 6, Gunnery 6, Spec 2, Hot Sim 2, Immersion 2, Smart Link 2, Tacnet lets call it 2, 5 Dice from active lock, Signature mod -3 = 23

Pretty close to that tricked out Gunbunny though not something a fresh character out of gen can do.

Oh yeah, I'm rigging a Doberman with a belt fed Ingrim White Knight LMG in the weapon mount with ammo bin mods.. Full Auto with no recoil for the win baby and three passes out the box.

Did I miss anything?
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Miri
post Jan 12 2013, 04:37 AM
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QUOTE (Umidori @ Jan 11 2013, 10:25 PM) *
That's true, Pax. The rigger could be in the thick of it, slumped in a heap two meters away from the drone he's controlling with Hot Sim VR.

I have no idea why any sane rigger would be, but it is at least possible. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi


Fight breaks out while meeting the Johnson? *shrug*
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Umidori
post Jan 12 2013, 04:50 AM
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Why would you even bring the rigger into the meet?

Better question, why would the rigger be allowed to bring their machinegun drone into the meet with them?

~Umi
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Falconer
post Jan 12 2013, 05:27 AM
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Active targetting is a simple action, not a free action. The game makes this explicit on page 171.


Dumpshock on it's own won't kill deckers/riggers... breaking into their links and such is unlikely because it's very easy to hide behind databombs, encryption, and lots of other tricks... making it highly unlikely people will be able to break into any of your drones without a significant amount of time and effort.

Especially as a technomancer like above... thread a rating 10 databomb with pavlov and biofeedback options... then laugh as anyone tries to get past it. The only way is to disarm... and good luck with that. So no, i don't find the threats you keep worrying about so bad... since you can hide behind the walls of your own nodes. The only one with a chance is a technomancer... and he's doubly likely to killl himself in the attempt (10d6 matrix damage PLUS biofeedback damage anyone on a pavlov option?!).

ECM? please... rating 6 ECCM counters most all... most ECM's have such a pathetic range that they couldn't jam anything unless they're sitting right on it. The only hard part here is pilot==system... so unless you upgrade pilot it's hard to run a good one on your drones. Pilot 3 == max ECCM 6 with optomize 3.


And while yes the rigger can be unconscious in the front... we all know that pretty much never happens... they all are cowards hiding in their little armored cocoons. Compared to the actual gunbunny sams. Gunbunny gets shot up... he's dying in a pool of his own blood and burning edge... rigger gets shot up... the drone is in a pile of it's own hydraulic fluid the rigger takes a little feedback and dumpshock maybe... but lets face it biofeedback filter is one of their biggest investments... unlikely. Dumpshock again... mostly soaked by the biofeedback... rigger is alive and disoriented but a new toy is just a click away to hop into.

So no I don't buy that any smart rigger is in anywhere near the same amount of danger as a street sam. So I see no reason that the rigger needs the same size dice pools as the street sam.
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Miri
post Jan 12 2013, 05:37 AM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Jan 11 2013, 11:27 PM) *
Active targetting is a simple action, not a free action. The game makes this explicit on page 171.


Active Targeting is a perception test and if you are VR driving the drone it is a Matrix test, Multiprocessing makes all Matrix Perception tests a free action.

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_Pax._
post Jan 12 2013, 07:11 AM
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QUOTE (Miri @ Jan 11 2013, 11:35 PM) *
Tacnet lets call it 2,

Gunbunny's pool just went to 26. Theyc an use TacNet too.

So now it's 26 to 23, and you think the 23 needs the penalty more than the 26?

Also remember that non-Techno riggers also use the same rules, but dont' have any Immersion bonusses, nor Echoes.

QUOTE
Oh yeah, I'm rigging a Doberman with a belt fed Ingrim White Knight LMG in the weapon mount with ammo bin mods.. Full Auto with no recoil for the win baby and three passes out the box.

Same gun; Gyro Stabilisation 6, Gas-Vent 5 (the White Knight comes with this), Heavy Barrel. 13 points of recoi compensation. Rock the Full Auto all day long (belt fed), and never experience recoil.

No drone required.
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