Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: New Full Auto Rules
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
Bushw4cker
One of my biggest pet peeves since second edition has been the full auto rules. I think 4th edition does them a little better with adding wide and narrow bursts to the rules, but still in my opinion makes firing a weapon on full auto very impractical, and for Drones or having tons of recoil comp Full Auto is way too deadly. Another one of my beefs with Current Full Auto rules is that modern fully automatic weapons can easily empty a clip in a matter of a few seconds. I don’t want Shadowrun rules to try to completely emulate real life but I would like them to be a little more realistic. Also my House Rules let characters, that don’t have multiple initiative passes, to have more fun with automatic weapons. I have an example using Sprawl Ganger archetype against 4 corporate security grunts. Then the same Sprawl Ganger against a Drone. I used my rules and the book rules. I used an automatic dice roller for the dice.

NICK’S FULL AUTO RULES

Characters firing full auto, if they start in the first Initiative pass, get a total of 4 initiative passes, even if they don’t normally get extra passes. The only thing that a character acting on these extra passes can do is continuing firing at the same target on full auto or stop firing. Each extra initiative pass that a character continues firing full auto adds a -2 cumulative dice pool modifier. So a character that normally has only one initiative pass that continues firing into the 2nd pass receives a -2 modifier, on the 3rd a -4, and on the 4th a -6 modifier. If a character starts firing full auto on the 2nd initiative pass he/she only gets 2 extra passes, and so on. Augmented speed freaks benefit by being able to change targets, not add up negative modifiers, and perform other actions. Characters roll Weapon Skill + Agility + Recoil Comp +/- modifiers. Recoil comp is limited to characters weapon skill, so a character with firearms 2, could only benefit from 2 points of compensated recoil. Weapons with high rates of fire (Super Machine Guns and Mini-guns.) receive extra dice for every bullet over 10 fired in an initiative pass. So a Super Machine Gun gets +2 dice and a Mini-gun gets + 5 dice. Damage is limited by the number of bullet fired, so if a HK-227X fired on full auto only has 2 rounds left in the clip, the max damage it could do in that pass is 6P. Tracer rounds add +3 to dice pool when firing beyond short range, but damage is limited to -3 for Automatics, -4 Super Machine Guns, and -5 for Mini-Guns. Tracer rounds are also not compatible with Smartlinks. Vehicles and Drones firing full auto roll Sensor + Gunnery x 2 for Jumped in Rigger. Autonomous Drones roll Pilot + Targeting x 2. Remote Controlled Drones roll Command + Gunnery x 2. Autonomous Drones (That Have 3 Initiative Passes) would get a -2 dice pool firing full auto on a 4th Initiative Pass.

A Character with only one initiative Pass:
Character rolls in 1st Initiative Pass: Weapon Skill + Agility +* Recoil Comp +/- Modifiers
Character rolls on 2nd Initiative Pass: Weapon Skill + Agility +* Recoil Comp +/- Modifiers -2
Character rolls on 3rd Initiative Pass: Weapon Skill + Agility +* Recoil Comp +/- Modifiers -4
Character rolls on 4th Initiative Pass: Weapon Skill + Agility + *Recoil Comp +/- Modifiers -6

A Character with two initiative Passes:
Character rolls in 1st Initiative Pass: Weapon Skill + Agility +* Recoil Comp +/- Modifiers
Character rolls on 2nd Initiative Pass: Weapon Skill + Agility +* Recoil Comp +/- Modifiers
Character rolls on 3rd Initiative Pass: Weapon Skill + Agility +* Recoil Comp +/- Modifiers -2
Character rolls on 4th Initiative Pass: Weapon Skill + Agility + *Recoil Comp +/- Modifiers -4

*Every bullet over 10 rounds fired per initiative pass adds to dice pool. So super machine guns get +2 dice, and miniguns get an extra +5.
*Recoil Comp bonus limited to weapon skill. So a character with 2 in Firearms Skill group could only benefit from 2pts of recoil comp.
*Damage Limited to number of bullets fired. So a 5P gun that fires on full auto that has only 2 rounds left in the clip, can only do up to 6P damage.

Corporate Security Unit vs Sprawl Ganger

Here’s an example using first the book rules, then my rules.

[ Spoiler ]
Draco18s
QUOTE (Bushw4cker @ Jan 11 2013, 04:16 PM) *
Here’s an example using first the book rules, then my rules.

[ hide]


Try [ spoiler] instead.
Bushw4cker
THANKS ))...now tell me what you think )
Umidori
Now, I haven't actually read your full rules suggestion yet, so no judgement or opinion on it yet. (I'm sleep deprived, prolly gonna crash, I'll read it when I wake up. nyahnyah.gif)

But at a glance, and just snap thinking about the topic in general... Do you really find FA all that problematic?

With machine guns, you're already using big, hard to conceal, hard to find, expensive, illegal firearms that require the Heavy Weapons skill and which incur doubled modifiers for any uncompensated recoil, which can only be avoided with additional weapon mods or accessories. That's a lot of inconvenience wrapped up in those weapons, and the single tradeoff is the ability to dish out heavy damage in one burst, or make a weaker shot incredibly hard to dodge.

For smaller FA guns, chiefly Machine Pistols, SMGs, and Assault Rifles, it becomes difficult or even impossible to use them on full auto without sacrificing dice to recoil. You simply can't mod or accessorize most of the available guns enough to compensate fully. So yeah, again, you gain a damage boost or make the enemy lose dice to dodge, but it comes at the cost of your own dice.

I dunno. I think on average I'd be more frightened of two short bursts from an Ares Alpha than I would be of a full auto burst.

~Umi
Falconer
Having looked at it... no I don't like it... RC is too easy to come by. It makes automatics even more broken by giving free IP's to people who shouldn't have them.

It's sustained fire over multiple IP bits are already covered by suppressing fire area attack rules.

You create more problems than you solve with this.
Bushw4cker
The biggest problem with full auto rules is vehicle and drone mounted Automatic Weapons. They are way overpowered. There is no way a LMG should be able to do more damage than a LAW rocket. (15P -1, on full auto narrow burst vs LAW Rocket 12P -2/-6. ) My rules make it easier to hit someone with Full Auto, but make getting hit at least survivable. I think they are more realistic and a lot more fun. How many players ever use full auto fire the way the rules are now? How many players would rather have an LMG mounted on their vehicle than an assault cannon? I think my examples prove which rules are better. Current SR420A rules, a combat veteran (Rating 4 Skill) with Average Agility(3) couldn't hit someone at point blank range with full auto with an AK-97 unless he makes a long shot test. (7 + 2 - 9)
Bushw4cker
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jan 12 2013, 01:04 AM) *
Having looked at it... no I don't like it... RC is too easy to come by. It makes automatics even more broken by giving free IP's to people who shouldn't have them.

It's sustained fire over multiple IP bits are already covered by suppressing fire area attack rules.

You create more problems than you solve with this.


Recoil comp bonus is limited by weapon skill.
It's not really free Initiative passes, you just get a few extra rolls to try to hit your target. The time it takes to empty a whole clip would take a couple seconds.
Suppressive fire is different than trying to empty a clip into your target.

Do you or your players ever fire weapons (Not vehicle mounted) on full auto fire?
Have you ever thought its way to easy to kill someone with a drone?
Miri
When calculating drone dice pools to shoot, dont forget to take into account the -3 dice for shooting at a man sized target per the table on page 171 of 4A.
Bushw4cker
QUOTE (Miri @ Jan 12 2013, 02:14 AM) *
When calculating drone dice pools to shoot, dont forget to take into account the -3 dice for shooting at a man sized target per the table on page 171 of 4A.


That is for sensor targeting. Which is more useful against larger vehicles.
I reread page few times to make sure I was right
_Pax._
Bushwhacker is right.

If using good ol' visual targetting (yes, cameras count), there's no such modification.
Falconer
Pax... the rules make no such distinction.

The passive targetting mods don't care what sensor you are using.

It's one of the few ways to keep rigger attack pools sane... (+2 specialty +2 hotsim, +2 control rig, +2 smartlink if allowed.... and I can keep going)... all before sensor + gunnery and the freebie extra RC a drone provides. A -3 penalty to hit on top of all that isn't a lot.
_Pax._
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jan 11 2013, 09:06 PM) *
Pax... the rules make no such distinction.

Yes, actually, they do. Rather explicitly - the rules for Sensor Targeting say that a character can use the vehicles sensors to assist them ... not that they must do so.

QUOTE
It's one of the few ways to keep rigger attack pools sane... (+2 specialty +2 hotsim, +2 control rig, +2 smartlink if allowed.... and I can keep going)...

Highest sensor rating in SR4A or Arsenal?
SR4A has one at 5, and it's a T-bird. Everything else caps out at 3 ... or less. Usually less.

Arsenal has one at 4 - and it's the quarter-million-nuyen Assassin Drone. Everything else, again, is 3 or less. Usually less, still.

Contrariwise, what kind of Agility can a dedicated gun-bunny get? Why, they can get a SIXTEEN (Elf, Exceptional attribute, Surge, and Genetic Optimisation - max umagumented Agility of 11. Times 1.5, round down, and you have 16.)

Plus the same smartlink and specialty bonusses.

...

So, assuming a skill of 6+specialty, and a smartlink ... the Rigger gets to play with a DP of 17 (sensor 3, Gunnery 6, specialised +2, smartlink +2, HotVR +2, VCR +2), while the gun-bunny gets a DP of 26 (16 agility, 6 skill, specialty +2, smartlink +2) ... and you think it's teh rigger who needs a -3 penalty to keep their attack pool sane ...?!?

Good grief.
Miri
If you are going to give that minmaxed gunbunny a 16 agility why are you not allowing the rigger to trick out his drone just as much with an after market rating 6 sensor?

Also, if you use plain old camera's to take your Gunnery test what second stat do you use as your skill+attribute base?
_Pax._
QUOTE (Miri @ Jan 11 2013, 10:17 PM) *
If you are going to give that minmaxed gunbunny a 16 agility why are you not allowing the rigger to trick out his drone just as much with an after market rating 6 sensor?

First, show me the rules that define exactly how to upgrade a sensor from 3 to 6. I'll give you a hint: there aren't any. There's only a vague grey area, that peopel interpret one way or the other, to suit their own ends.

Then, tell me how even a DP of 20 for the Rigger, before penalties for Signature, meansthe Rigger needs a penalty but the gunbunny who still has SIX more dice, doesn't.
Falconer
Because the gunbunny is actually putting themselves in danger... while the rigger is hiding in their armored cocooon.

That's why. Its' the difference between being there in person and hiding behind a tricked out drone... with a ton of bonuses not even from the drone... even in an extremely cheap little drone. +8 dice from things the gunbunny can't even touch.


And I'm not referring to the rules for active targetting... I'm referring to the passive sensor targetting rules.
Miri
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jan 11 2013, 09:42 PM) *
Because the gunbunny is actually putting themselves in danger... while the rigger is hiding in their armored cocooon.

That's why. Its' the difference between being there in person and hiding behind a tricked out drone... with a ton of bonuses not even from the drone... even in an extremely cheap little drone. +8 dice from things the gunbunny can't even touch.


And I'm not referring to the rules for active targetting... I'm referring to the passive sensor targetting rules.


The rigger is most certainly in danger, getting hacked, getting shot and flubbing the biofeedback roll, getting traced and stabbed in the face while sitting in said armored cocoon, getting jammed and losing contact with the drone.

Even the passive sensor targeting rules say the Signature mods apply. I'd still like to know what other stat to use if I'm going to make a Gunnery test while using plain old visual cameras.
Falconer
Miri... that's the point... if you're the rigger... you're either using passive or active targetting. And all your arguments are pretty moot... where am i hiding my body... inside a Crashcart large drone with a valkryie module... they're sneaking up on that drone as well? The one you're directly plugged into to get to your body... with the 12 vehicle armor, and 20 armor cocoon with built in rating 6 medkit which can do first aid on you? So no the rigger is rarely in any serious danger compared to an actual gunbunny who doesn't have the luxury of vehicle armor protecting him. Dumpshock... please it's more of an annoyance than a serious threat to the rigger...



The cameras are part of the sensor suite... and the rules make no differentiation. I listed 8 dice of potential positives only one of which has limited link to the drone (smartgun).

If you use active targetting... you can get even MORE bonus dice on top of this!!! Active targetting is simply passive targetting with bonus dice from the sensor lock-on roll... which can and normally will completely negate that -3 passive targeting penalty. And if you are... it's only a simple action to do the lockon.


If you get to simple action to lock-on say +3 dice... now we're at +11 dice even before sensor plus skill... toss in tacnet (trivially easy for drones and riggers to do all by their lonesome) if you allow tacnets to give bonuses another easy few dice... all before doing the sensor + skill!. (the rules for tacnets do not say they do... it says they can as a laundry list of possible ways a GM might apply them)

Pax's point is correct, the rules say you CAN use passive targetting... your other option in the book is active targetting.
_Pax._
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jan 11 2013, 10:42 PM) *
Because the gunbunny is actually putting themselves in danger... while the rigger is hiding in their armored cocooon.

Says who?

The rigger could be crouched down behind something, right there in the thick of it, operating a drone that's only two meters away from their own self.

Not to mention the danger of potentially being attacked in cybercombat.

Nor that those "cheap little drones" really are NOT that cheap ... and are generally not at all durable in combat, unless you make them LESS cheap.

QUOTE
+8 dice from things the gunbunny can't even touch.

Eight? I counted FOUR:

Hot Sim VR, +2
Vehicle Control Rig, +2

Smartlinks and specialisations are not exclusive to Riggers.


Umidori
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Jan 11 2013, 09:15 PM) *
Says who?

The rigger could be crouched down behind something, right there in the thick of it, operating a drone that's only two meters away from their own self.
That's true, Pax. The rigger could be in the thick of it, slumped in a heap two meters away from the drone he's controlling with Hot Sim VR.

I have no idea why any sane rigger would be, but it is at least possible. nyahnyah.gif

~Umi
Miri
Lets look at something nicely optimized.
Technomancer rigger with 2 ranks of Immersion to simulate the Control Rig and Multiprocessing.

Free action to active lock since it is a perception check and a matrix action.
Perception 6, Spec 2, Hot Sim 2, TM Bonus 2, Immersion 2, Multiprocessing 3, Vision Enhancement 3, Sensor 6, Signature mod -3 = 23 so lets call it 5 dice on the lock.

Take the shot.
Sensor 6, Gunnery 6, Spec 2, Hot Sim 2, Immersion 2, Smart Link 2, Tacnet lets call it 2, 5 Dice from active lock, Signature mod -3 = 23

Pretty close to that tricked out Gunbunny though not something a fresh character out of gen can do.

Oh yeah, I'm rigging a Doberman with a belt fed Ingrim White Knight LMG in the weapon mount with ammo bin mods.. Full Auto with no recoil for the win baby and three passes out the box.

Did I miss anything?
Miri
QUOTE (Umidori @ Jan 11 2013, 10:25 PM) *
That's true, Pax. The rigger could be in the thick of it, slumped in a heap two meters away from the drone he's controlling with Hot Sim VR.

I have no idea why any sane rigger would be, but it is at least possible. nyahnyah.gif

~Umi


Fight breaks out while meeting the Johnson? *shrug*
Umidori
Why would you even bring the rigger into the meet?

Better question, why would the rigger be allowed to bring their machinegun drone into the meet with them?

~Umi
Falconer
Active targetting is a simple action, not a free action. The game makes this explicit on page 171.


Dumpshock on it's own won't kill deckers/riggers... breaking into their links and such is unlikely because it's very easy to hide behind databombs, encryption, and lots of other tricks... making it highly unlikely people will be able to break into any of your drones without a significant amount of time and effort.

Especially as a technomancer like above... thread a rating 10 databomb with pavlov and biofeedback options... then laugh as anyone tries to get past it. The only way is to disarm... and good luck with that. So no, i don't find the threats you keep worrying about so bad... since you can hide behind the walls of your own nodes. The only one with a chance is a technomancer... and he's doubly likely to killl himself in the attempt (10d6 matrix damage PLUS biofeedback damage anyone on a pavlov option?!).

ECM? please... rating 6 ECCM counters most all... most ECM's have such a pathetic range that they couldn't jam anything unless they're sitting right on it. The only hard part here is pilot==system... so unless you upgrade pilot it's hard to run a good one on your drones. Pilot 3 == max ECCM 6 with optomize 3.


And while yes the rigger can be unconscious in the front... we all know that pretty much never happens... they all are cowards hiding in their little armored cocoons. Compared to the actual gunbunny sams. Gunbunny gets shot up... he's dying in a pool of his own blood and burning edge... rigger gets shot up... the drone is in a pile of it's own hydraulic fluid the rigger takes a little feedback and dumpshock maybe... but lets face it biofeedback filter is one of their biggest investments... unlikely. Dumpshock again... mostly soaked by the biofeedback... rigger is alive and disoriented but a new toy is just a click away to hop into.

So no I don't buy that any smart rigger is in anywhere near the same amount of danger as a street sam. So I see no reason that the rigger needs the same size dice pools as the street sam.
Miri
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jan 11 2013, 11:27 PM) *
Active targetting is a simple action, not a free action. The game makes this explicit on page 171.


Active Targeting is a perception test and if you are VR driving the drone it is a Matrix test, Multiprocessing makes all Matrix Perception tests a free action.

_Pax._
QUOTE (Miri @ Jan 11 2013, 11:35 PM) *
Tacnet lets call it 2,

Gunbunny's pool just went to 26. Theyc an use TacNet too.

So now it's 26 to 23, and you think the 23 needs the penalty more than the 26?

Also remember that non-Techno riggers also use the same rules, but dont' have any Immersion bonusses, nor Echoes.

QUOTE
Oh yeah, I'm rigging a Doberman with a belt fed Ingrim White Knight LMG in the weapon mount with ammo bin mods.. Full Auto with no recoil for the win baby and three passes out the box.

Same gun; Gyro Stabilisation 6, Gas-Vent 5 (the White Knight comes with this), Heavy Barrel. 13 points of recoi compensation. Rock the Full Auto all day long (belt fed), and never experience recoil.

No drone required.
_Pax._
QUOTE (Miri @ Jan 12 2013, 12:37 AM) *
Active Targeting is a perception test and if you are VR driving the drone it is a Matrix test, Multiprocessing makes all Matrix Perception tests a free action.

No.

Per the rules on p171 of SR4A, Active Targeting is a Sensor Test, not a Perception Test - it is based on the Use Simple Device action.
Falconer
It's even more explicit that that it is its own action. Page 171 explicitly says it is a simple action not some other action which also is a simple.

Matrix perception is something entirely different than regular or sensor perception as well. The analyze and matrix perception section makes this explicitly clear. Multitasking even more explicitly makes 'observe in detail' a free action just like the adept power. Sensor lock-on is not observe in detail... it's taking an action to focus the sensors on one item to provide a targetting bonus, not merely look through them to see what's going on.


As far as the rest Pax... you're looking at 26 vs 20 dice with the penalty. And the rigger almost never in serious risk... so yes I don't see this as a problem. Again under NORMAL situations the rigger loses a toy... he spends some $$$ and replaces it... the gunbunny is dead and burning edge. Since dodoge pools aren't going that high the point is pretty much moot past this... you hit... it's only a question of a point of damage or two.

And to get to that you had to cheese the hell out of street sam... use every agility trick in the book... and have almost nothing left to spend on rounding the character out. (besides last I checked muscle toner IV + the one which gives +1 more to all the physical stats only comes to +5 enhancement. making +16 seriously unlikely for an attribute short of magic and even then some rediculous powerful magic (force 10+ spell... or 1.5PP adept powers). So pardon me if I don't put much stock in your example of extreme die pools... the point is the pools are both highly effective and the rigger is at little to no risk compared to the street sam.
Halinn
Why not remote control the drone with command 10, if we're playing with technomancers?
_Pax._
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jan 12 2013, 02:33 AM) *
As far as the rest Pax... you're looking at 26 vs 20 dice with the penalty.

No, we're not. On the one hand, I forgot that the Gun Bunny can use a Reflex Recorder, but the Rigger cannot. For two, you're mistakenly thinking I showed the die pools WITH the penalty; I didn't.

WITHOUT the penalty:
RAW Sensors 3: DP of 17 (sensor 3, Gunnery 6, specialised +2, smartlink +2, HotVR +2, VCR +2),
Semi-Houseruled / vague ruled Sensors 6: DP of 20 (sensor 3, Gunnery 6, specialised +2, smartlink +2, HotVR +2, VCR +2),
Gun Bunny: DP of 27 (16 agility, 6 skill, specialty +2, smartlink +2, reflex recorder)

WITH the penalty:
RAW Sensors 3: DP of 14 (sensor 3, Gunnery 6, specialised +2, smartlink +2, HotVR +2, VCR +2, Signature -3),
Semi-Houseruled / vague ruled Sensors 6: DP of 17 (sensor 3, Gunnery 6, specialised +2, smartlink +2, HotVR +2, VCR +2, Signature -3),
Gun Bunny: DP of 27 (16 agility, 6 skill, specialty +2, smartlink +2, reflex recorder +1)


Even using the most favorable interpretation of the Sensor rules possible, if you include the -3 Signature penalty the Rigger is still a full ten dice short of the gun bunny. I do not believe that is at all necessary.


QUOTE
And the rigger almost never in serious risk... so yes I don't see this as a problem. Again under NORMAL situations the rigger loses a toy... he spends some $$$ and replaces it... the gunbunny is dead and burning edge. Since dodoge pools aren't going that high the point is pretty much moot past this... you hit... it's only a question of a point of damage or two.

The rigger is more likely to completely lose the drone, than the gunbunny is to even need a bandage.

Here' let's assume one of the most durable drones a rigger is likely to start with - a Wuxing Crimson Samurai. Out of the box, it's about as good as it gets for Drones: Body 4, Armor 12. Literally, that's the maximum armor rating possible for it. BAre-bones - no modifications, no weapon, no nothing - it's a 9500¥ "toy".

It soaks damage with 16 dice. IT has a physical damage track of 10.

Whereas, if we go with an Ork gunbunny, instead of an Elf? Well hang on, I've actually been building one for kicks ... Let's see, Body 8, Dermal Sheath 2, Kevlar bone lacing; then, wearing a full suit of Form-Fitting body armor (Nonconductive 6; +6/+2), Securetch Vitals Protector (+1/+1), and either a Ulysses greatcoat (Chemical 4, Fire 4; 6/4) or an Urban Explorer Jumpsuit (Chemical 4, Fire 4; 6/6). OH, and he has Toughness.

(And yes, yes, I'm aware that the offensive pool would go way down. It'd still equal or exceed the rigger's pool. In fact, I've got 17 dice showing for that Ork, with a 6/8 Agility rating)

Final armor value 16/10 or 16/12; final soak DP of 26 Ballistic and 20 or 22 Impact. Plus Chemical and Fire protection of 4, and Electrical protection of 6. And his Physical damage track is 12; Stun is 10.


... in the final analysis? The Ork takes less damage per shot (assuming the same final DV and AP per attack), and it takes slightly more OF that damage to put him down.

Generally, the Ork is going to get almost nine successes on every soak roll against standard, ordinary bullets. The drone is going to get five. For the Ork to take 1 box of damage, the drone is taking five of them, from the identical attack.

By the time the Ork is up to 12 boxes of damage ("bleeding out in the street", the Rigger must have lost SIX of those drones. BEfore counting any of the mods, weapons, or ammunition, the Rigger is out 57,000¥.

And you know what's funny? One good roll on a Heal spell, and the Ork could be back up to "completely unhurt". But replacing that many Security-grade drones, with weapons and other toys? Is going to take the rigger months of work.

...

Don't trivialise the Rigger's losses. They can add up, quite quickly.



QUOTE
And to get to that you had to cheese the hell out of street sam... use every agility trick in the book... and have almost nothing left to spend on rounding the character out.

... and? Teh rigger is assumed to be as fully tricked out as possible, too.

QUOTE
(besides last I checked muscle toner IV + the one which gives +1 more to all the physical stats only comes to +5 enhancement. making +16 seriously unlikely for an attribute short of magic and even then some rediculous powerful magic (force 10+ spell... or 1.5PP adept powers). So pardon me if I don't put much stock in your example of extreme die pools...

I was just assuming Cyberarms. *shrug*

QUOTE
the point is the pools are both highly effective and the rigger is at little to no risk compared to the street sam.

Except for that huge pile of cash. Seriously, in the example above ... with guns, ammo, otehr mods ... the replacement cost of the destroyed drones is going to be around 100,000¥.

And let's nto even go intot he expense AND personal danger, if the Rigger-in-a-box's van/car/whatever ever gets tracked down and attacked directly. That could be a quarter of a million nuyen right there, BEFORE medical bills.
NiL_FisK_Urd
The Rigger can use Response instead of agility (unless he uses sensor targeting). Note that the sensor targeting rules do not force a rigger to use it. Most of the time, sensor targeting is even detrimental to use, except when someone wants to use active targeting.

QUOTE (SR4A @ p.171)
Characters can use the vehicle’s Sensor Attribute to help with Gunnery.

QUOTE (SR4A @ p.245)
Any tests are made using the rigger’s skills and the drone’s attributes (substituting Response for Agility and Reaction and Sensor for Intuition)


Also, he can get Control Rig Booster Nanites for (up to) +3 on jumped-in vehicle skills. Now, if he does not use sensor targeting, and uses a R5 Response Chip in the Drone, his DP goes up by at least 2.

Additionally, fixing a broken drone takes a Threshold 16 Mechanic Test (broken beyond repair), with a GM adjusted interval. Or a "Fix" Spell.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Jan 12 2013, 04:44 AM) *
Here' let's assume one of the most durable drones a rigger is likely to start with - a Wuxing Crimson Samurai. Out of the box, it's about as good as it gets for Drones: Body 4, Armor 12. Literally, that's the maximum armor rating possible for it. BAre-bones - no modifications, no weapon, no nothing - it's a 9500¥ "toy".

It soaks damage with 16 dice. IT has a physical damage track of 10.

Whereas, if we go with an Ork gunbunny, instead of an Elf? Well hang on, I've actually been building one for kicks ... Let's see, Body 8, Dermal Sheath 2, Kevlar bone lacing; then, wearing a full suit of Form-Fitting body armor (Nonconductive 6; +6/+2), Securetch Vitals Protector (+1/+1), and either a Ulysses greatcoat (Chemical 4, Fire 4; 6/4) or an Urban Explorer Jumpsuit (Chemical 4, Fire 4; 6/6). OH, and he has Toughness.

(And yes, yes, I'm aware that the offensive pool would go way down. It'd still equal or exceed the rigger's pool. In fact, I've got 17 dice showing for that Ork, with a 6/8 Agility rating)

Final armor value 16/10 or 16/12; final soak DP of 26 Ballistic and 20 or 22 Impact. Plus Chemical and Fire protection of 4, and Electrical protection of 6. And his Physical damage track is 12; Stun is 10.


... in the final analysis? The Ork takes less damage per shot (assuming the same final DV and AP per attack), and it takes slightly more OF that damage to put him down.

Generally, the Ork is going to get almost nine successes on every soak roll against standard, ordinary bullets. The drone is going to get five. For the Ork to take 1 box of damage, the drone is taking five of them, from the identical attack.

By the time the Ork is up to 12 boxes of damage ("bleeding out in the street", the Rigger must have lost SIX of those drones. BEfore counting any of the mods, weapons, or ammunition, the Rigger is out 57,000¥.

And you know what's funny? One good roll on a Heal spell, and the Ork could be back up to "completely unhurt". But replacing that many Security-grade drones, with weapons and other toys? Is going to take the rigger months of work.

...

Don't trivialise the Rigger's losses. They can add up, quite quickly.


What damage are you soaking? Because that Drone is entirely Ignoring any damage that does 12 Points of Damage or less (and even Autofire does not change that, as you check before applying htat autofire bonus damage.

And if you are goping to use a Heal Spell, lets not forget the Vehicle can receive a FIX spell (as mentioned above), though at a little more of a penalty (OR).
Bushw4cker
What about my rules!!! sigh...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Bushw4cker @ Jan 12 2013, 08:53 AM) *
What about my rules!!! sigh...


Oh, Sorry.
Don't like them becasue the current rules work just fine, in my opinion.
Lionhearted
Needs more KISS imho
Bushw4cker
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Jan 12 2013, 05:07 PM) *
Needs more KISS imho


KISS??
Draco18s
QUOTE (Bushw4cker @ Jan 12 2013, 11:06 PM) *
KISS??


Keep
It
Simple,
Stupid
Bushw4cker
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jan 13 2013, 04:59 AM) *
Keep
It
Simple,
Stupid


It's a lot simpler then trying to figure out most situational modifiers in combat. Partial Light (-2), Injury Modifiers, Walking (-1), Glare (-1), Troll Using Holdout Pistol (-2)....and so on..
Draco18s
QUOTE (Bushw4cker @ Jan 13 2013, 01:51 AM) *
It's a lot simpler then trying to figure out most situational modifiers in combat. Partial Light (-2), Injury Modifiers, Walking (-1), Glare (-1), Troll Using Holdout Pistol (-2)....and so on..


Except that all of those modifiers should still be relevant.

The KISS comment was a comparison of YOUR rules compared to the RAW rules covering only the same context.
Bushw4cker
I'll try to state it a lot simpler

Full Auto: roll Weapon Skill + Agility + Recoil(Limited by Weapon Skill) +/- Modifiers -2 for every extra initiative pass that character would normally not act on.

*Character gets "Extra" Passes if they keep firing on full auto. 4 passes if they start on 1st pass. 3 on 2nd. and so on.
*The ONLY action a character can take with extra passes, is to keep firing on full auto at same target.
*Damage is limited to # of bullets fired

Vehicles and Drones roll:

Jumped in Rigger: Sensor + Gunneryx2
Autonomous Drone: Pilot + Targetingx2
Remote Controlled Drone: Command + Gunneryx2

*Super Machine Guns get +2 dice, Mini-guns get +5 dice to hit
*Tracer rounds add +3 dice when firing beyond short range only. Damage potential reduced (-3 FA weapons, -4 Super MG's, -5 Mini-guns)
Draco18s
QUOTE (Bushw4cker @ Jan 13 2013, 02:08 AM) *
*Damage is limited to # of bullets fired


How many bullets are fired in any given pass?
Falconer
Wow you managed to make something awful even worse....

You do realize that automatics are already the most overpowered gun skill in the game. And the automatic fire rules are largely considered too powerful though an improvement on SR3 rules (which were even more powerful).

You're going to toss 3 dice pools against a single reaction stat... with a mere -2 for continued extra passes for people whose only reason to have extra passes is that they bought a cheap FA gun... on people who commonly have 16-20 dice to start with.

Some of the worst house rules I've seen posted in a while.
Bushw4cker
I break up full auto into extra initiative passes instead of just having someone roll extra times in their initiative pass.

Crometrog, the Troll street samurai, is barreling towards my character. He is 35 meters away. He has 4 initiative passes, so he moves at (35/4) about 9 meters a pass. The Troll wins initiative and runs 9 meters toward my character. I have an SMG and unload full auto at the troll on my pass. I roll Automatics + Agility + Recoil Comp. +/- modifiers. The troll moves another 9 meters towards me, I keep the trigger pulled. The troll moves another 9 meters towards my character and is now in short range as my character keeps firing now at a -4 to hit because I only have 1 Initiative Pass. The last pass the troll is in my face.

I use the "Extra" Passes to represent the time it takes to unload a fully automatic weapon. It takes a few seconds and in that time things are happening in combat.
Bushw4cker
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jan 13 2013, 07:19 AM) *
Wow you managed to make something awful even worse....

You do realize that automatics are already the most overpowered gun skill in the game. And the automatic fire rules are largely considered too powerful though an improvement on SR3 rules (which were even more powerful).

You're going to toss 3 dice pools against a single reaction stat... with a mere -2 for continued extra passes for people whose only reason to have extra passes is that they bought a cheap FA gun... on people who commonly have 16-20 dice to start with.

Some of the worst house rules I've seen posted in a while.


Read My examples, try them out for yourself.
I would much rather go against a drone with my rules then the book rules on full auto.
Bushw4cker
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jan 13 2013, 07:18 AM) *
How many bullets are fired in any given pass?


10 Bullets for regular fully automatic weapons
12 for Super Machine Guns
15 for mini-guns

So if you have a 38 round clip and you empty it all in a combat turn the max damage you could do on the 4th Initiative Pass would be 12P for a 5P weapon. 5P +7 (8 Bullets total)

I tried to keep as much of the original rules as I could as far as damage progression and so on.

I challenge any of you to try a scenario using my rules and the book rules and compare before you make any judgements. I've given this a lot of thought.
Lionhearted
The thing is Bush, because it breaks the mold of every other combat situation and introduces an entirely new system (gaining extra IPs as part of an action) It's convoluted from design not wording.
KISS is a term often used by programmers to describe code with a lot of redunancies or convoluted script, don't read into what it means, it wasn't an insult.
Bushw4cker
I should have written it differently people are getting stuck up on the extra initiative passes.

Think of it as a complex action that takes almost a whole turn to complete. (It takes about 2-3 seconds to unload a full clip.) You get 4 rolls, but who your shooting at is going to have time in those 2-3 seconds to move to cover, run, or whatever.

Firing an automatic weapon will never be as efficient as semi-automatic or burst.

Lets say for example: You have an assault rifle (5P) with 40 rounds. We're going to buy successes here and assume that the target doesn't dodge. Your skill is 4, Agility 4. recoil comp 5

If you use semi-automatic your going to be able to dish out a total of 7P damage per bullet. A total of 280 points of damage per clip
If you use burst fire your doing 9P damage per burst or 3P damage per bullet. A total of 120 points of damage per clip
With my full auto rules you are doing 8P damage per 10 bullets. A measly total of 32 points of damage per clip

It's ALWAYS going to be more efficient to use Semi-Automatic over any other mode.

That's part of the reason why the military doesn't use full auto. It's highly inefficient, and bullets cost a lot.
thorya
So you got rid of the damage bonus for firing full auto? At least that is what your example looks like, but then why the comment about damage bonus being limited by available ammo. Did you do this with burst fire as well? Did you just do away with burst fire entirely?

I'll be honest, I really tried to like these, because I see what you're trying to do, but I don't. It adds a lot of rolls and complication for limited return. And more penalty on people with low weapon skills isn't really appealing to me and it just doesn't make sense that how well the gun compensates for recoil depends upon the shooter. I also think that recoil compensation is so common that effectively making it a super smartlink usable only be gun bunnies doesn't make changes to the game I'm interested in.

I will propose an alternate houserule to try to address the same issue that I think is simpler. Though it adds a lot more soak rolls than the current rules.


All shots, except single shot, are complex actions (semi-auto, burst, full auto). You decide before you take the shots whether you're doing a wide burst or a narrow burst, and how many rounds you're firing (2, 3, 6, 9). I still haven't figured out how to handle wide burst yet.

Narrow Burst
You only roll once to attack, but you may hit multiple times if you exceed the defenders defense roll by a large margin.

You roll your total dice pool, regardless of what mode you're firing in.
Skill + Attribute +/- Modifiers, etc.

If you are firing a narrow burst the defender rolls their defense pool.
Reaction (+ Dodge) +/- Modifiers

Determine the number of net hits. And compare with the list below, note that a defender soaks for every situation that applies. Start at the top and work your way down. So it is possible (and likely) that the defender soaks damage several times.

1. If Attacker's net hits + Recoil compensation > 9 and they fired (9) rounds, the defender rolls to soak vs weapon's damage+ any net hits greater than 9 (i.e. 11 net hits adds 2 here). If not move down.
2. If Attacker's net hits + recoil compensation > 6 and they fired (6,9) rounds, the defender rolls to soak vs weapon's damage+any net hits greater than 6. If not move down.
3. If Attacker's net hits + recoil compensation > 3 and they fired (3,6,9) rounds, the defender rolls to soak vs weapon's damage+any net hits greater than 3. If not move down.
4. If Attacker's net hits + recoil compensation > 1 and they fired (2,3,6,9) rounds, the defender rolls to soak vs weapon's damage+any net hits greater than 1. If not move down.
5. If Attacker's net hits >0 and they fired any number of rounds, the defender rolls to soak vs weapon's damage + net hits. If not you missed.

Essentially, this is stepping back to treating auto fire as multiple simultaneous shots all using the same attack. Your first shot is not penalized at all and does damage normally. If you don't think that you're likely to beat the defender's dodge pull by a whole lot you can still try full auto, chances are you're just wasting bullets, but there is otherwise no penalty. Also, excess recoil compensation is no longer useless. Semi-auto fire is essentially two shots fired at the same spot in rapid succession. Round down to the next lowest set of rounds if you've fired a different number of rounds.

Bushw4cker
QUOTE (thorya @ Jan 13 2013, 04:06 PM) *
So you got rid of the damage bonus for firing full auto? At least that is what your example looks like, but then why the comment about damage bonus being limited by available ammo. Did you do this with burst fire as well? Did you just do away with burst fire entirely?

I'll be honest, I really tried to like these, because I see what you're trying to do, but I don't. It adds a lot of rolls and complication for limited return. And more penalty on people with low weapon skills isn't really appealing to me and it just doesn't make sense that how well the gun compensates for recoil depends upon the shooter. I also think that recoil compensation is so common that effectively making it a super smartlink usable only be gun bunnies doesn't make changes to the game I'm interested in.

I will propose an alternate houserule to try to address the same issue that I think is simpler. Though it adds a lot more soak rolls than the current rules.


All shots, except single shot, are complex actions (semi-auto, burst, full auto). You decide before you take the shots whether you're doing a wide burst or a narrow burst, and how many rounds you're firing (2, 3, 6, 9). I still haven't figured out how to handle wide burst yet.

Narrow Burst
You only roll once to attack, but you may hit multiple times if you exceed the defenders defense roll by a large margin.

You roll your total dice pool, regardless of what mode you're firing in.
Skill + Attribute +/- Modifiers, etc.

If you are firing a narrow burst the defender rolls their defense pool.
Reaction (+ Dodge) +/- Modifiers

Determine the number of net hits. And compare with the list below, note that a defender soaks for every situation that applies. Start at the top and work your way down. So it is possible (and likely) that the defender soaks damage several times.

1. If Attacker's net hits + Recoil compensation > 9 and they fired (9) rounds, the defender rolls to soak vs weapon's damage+ any net hits greater than 9 (i.e. 11 net hits adds 2 here). If not move down.
2. If Attacker's net hits + recoil compensation > 6 and they fired (6,9) rounds, the defender rolls to soak vs weapon's damage+any net hits greater than 6. If not move down.
3. If Attacker's net hits + recoil compensation > 3 and they fired (3,6,9) rounds, the defender rolls to soak vs weapon's damage+any net hits greater than 3. If not move down.
4. If Attacker's net hits + recoil compensation > 1 and they fired (2,3,6,9) rounds, the defender rolls to soak vs weapon's damage+any net hits greater than 1. If not move down.
5. If Attacker's net hits >0 and they fired any number of rounds, the defender rolls to soak vs weapon's damage + net hits. If not you missed.

Essentially, this is stepping back to treating auto fire as multiple simultaneous shots all using the same attack. Your first shot is not penalized at all and does damage normally. If you don't think that you're likely to beat the defender's dodge pull by a whole lot you can still try full auto, chances are you're just wasting bullets, but there is otherwise no penalty. Also, excess recoil compensation is no longer useless. Semi-auto fire is essentially two shots fired at the same spot in rapid succession. Round down to the next lowest set of rounds if you've fired a different number of rounds.


Yes I got rid of damage bonus for firing full auto. Instead made it easier to hit the target, due to the sheer number of bullets being fired.
Burst Fire does not change.

My Full Auto Rules it is a Complex Action to fire burst fire. It just takes a full turn to complete that action. Similar to running. Your making up to 4 rolls in a combat turn, any character can get off that many semi-automatic rolls every combat turn with use of edge, and most street samurais are going to be making 6 to 8 rolls every combat turn.

If you fire 10 rounds full auto, and the base damage of your weapon is 5P, the max amount of damage you could do would be 14P. I staged the damage similar to suppressive fire. Damage starts at base weapon per bullet then is staged up 1 per hit, total damage limited by how many bullets you fired. I think that best reflects the chaotic nature of full auto. Your goal is to try to get as many bullets into your target as fast as you can. It's near impossible to aim for a head shot or any other area. That's why I don't like the SR4 book rules. Think about it logically. Picture yourself trying to shoot a target. Are you going to use wide burst or narrow burst. Or are you just going to try to get as many bullets to hit your target as possible. Look up wide full auto burst or wide burst on Google, it only exists in Shadowrun.
If your firing a clip of 32 rounds and you only have 2 rounds left after firing the first 30 that combat turn, the most damage you could do would be 6P. This way every bullet is accounted for.
Full Auto is going to be less damaging, more likely to hit (just because of the sheer volume of bullets being fired), but way less efficient than semi-auto or burst fire.

How about maxing out the benefits of recoil comp at 6, and not have limit based on weapon skill?
Did you read my scenario? Book rules you can't hit a Troll at point blank range if your Dice Pool is less then 8, unless you take a Long shot.
Try your own scenario, using the book rules then mine. Then ask yourself which is more likely to have been the outcome.

I'm thinking about your rules, even more complex than mine 8P
thorya
Then no one (at least no runner) is going to use full auto in your game. A long narrow burst is way more effective than your proposed full auto rules. You have to remember that +damage is way more useful to runners than +dice pools, because they're pretty much going to hit a target any time and +1 to damage is roughly equivalent to +3 to attack dice pools.

Your not just adding 4 rolls though. For anyone firing on full auto with 1 initiative pass. Your adding 4 attack rolls. 4 Defense rolls. 4 soak rolls. 12 rolls instead of 3 with the current full auto rolls. I was trying to limit it back to 1 attack roll and 1 defense roll, but keep the 4 soak rolls, while also eliminating the 6-8 attack rolls back to 3-4 by eliminating multiple shots per pass.

I don't know what you mean by staging damage similar to suppressive fire. Suppressive fire does not stage as far as I know. Do you similarly limit single shot weapons to being only able to do +1 for net hits? It seriously drops the power level of weapons across the board, but if account for otherwise might work.

QUOTE
Your goal is to try to get as many bullets into your target as fast as you can. It's near impossible to aim for a head shot or any other area. That's why I don't like the SR4 book rules. Think about it logically. Picture yourself trying to shoot a target. Are you going to use wide burst or narrow burst. Or are you just going to try to get as many bullets to hit your target as possible. Look up wide full auto burst or wide burst on Google, it only exists in Shadowrun.


Have you ever fired a full auto weapon before? I have and it's quite possible to aim your shot, especially the first one. I can usually keep more than half my shots on target with the local range's Full-Auto AR-15 and even better with the MP5. And weapons kick predictably, so you can aim to account for that. I aim to get as many to hit my target where I want them to hit as possible. I know that for me they kick up and to the right (usually at 25 feet with the MP5 the second shot will hit about 2 inches to the right and 5 inches higher than the first). And the closest thing to training I've had is advice from some military friends and my brother-in-law. I usually don't fire full auto though, because it's freaking expensive.

As for wide bursts, they do exist in the real world. It's called Spray and Pray. It's used by undisciplined militaries and inexperienced people. It's how you're going to see most AK-47's being fired in the third world. Honestly, it does increase the chance you'll hit something, just not the chances that you'll hit what you're aiming at.

Rather than having recoil compensation give bonuses, why not just have it cancel the negatives on the following attack rolls? Dropping the limit based on skill would help.

I read the scenario, though the dice pools and a little more clarity might help. It's not convincing however, because going full auto isn't what the guard would do there. He would fire semi-auto or bursts, probably hit on the first and miss with the second. It's not as dramatic a difference as you've made it seem. Or the guards would just fire using the suppressive fire rules if they really want to open up full auto.
Using my rules, chances are if the guards open up full auto, they'll each roll once, they're each going to connect somewhere between 0-2 times and the ganger will roll soak damage against about 5P-8P about 8 times. 4 rolls to attack, 4 rolls to defend, 4-8 soaks. 16 rolls. They will have connected with the target a few times, but not really have been more effective than if they had just fired a controlled burst at him. And it's all over in one pass.
You had what 24 rolls? 11 attack rolls (less 1 because of glitch), 8 defense rolls since you didn't roll for 0 hits on attacks, 4-5 soak rolls.
Bushw4cker
Any character that is currently in the suppressed area (but not
behind cover or prone), or who moves into or out of the area before the
shooter’s next Action Phase, risks catching some flying lead. That character
must make a Reaction + Edge Test (+ Dodge if on full defense)
with a threshold equal to the hits scored by the suppressing attacker. If
the test fails, the character is hit, suffering damage at the weapon’s base
Damage Value.
Meant damage starts at base Damage value. sorry for confusion

The current rules add +9 damage to full auto burst (That's like adding 27 dice to dice pool.), The current rules are way overpowered in some instances (Vehicles, Drones, Trolls with lots of recoil comp.)
and completely useless in other instances. (Average Skilled Shooter, like a cop with firearm with little or no recoil)
Current rules a machine pistol on fully automatic narrow burst does more damage then a LAW Rocket, that's ridiculous.

I'm a gun owner (Sig Sauer, 1911, and Smith & Wesson revolver) and I have shot an AK-47.

I know it's not the better option to go full auto. It shouldn't be. It's a waste of ammo. Your also doing a lot less damage per bullet spent.

I know most guards would not go full auto, I was trying to give example of how messed up I feel the current rules are.

I thought about having recoil help after each 10 shots. Instead of -2, -4, and -6, but felt multiple IP characters should have some advantage over unaugmented with full auto.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012