Problems with Decking in SR4.5, Discuss your complaints here. Options

[Epicedion]

And relying on a firewall to prevent intrusion on your network is neither cheap nor secure.

Security is always relative. A computer network can be hacked. A courier can be intercepted. And even with a Secret Service security detail and the whole Intelligence Community watching his back, the president of the United States can actually be assassinated (I guess I just triggered a searchbot here). And it seems even easier when discussed on a forum by people who will assemble a team on a 400 BP basis and pick the gear in a list, instead of, say, finding and recruiting real people with the needed skills and the willingness to risk their life or their freedom, and acquiring the gear and the intelligence without getting caught.

There can never "enough" security. You jet get security to a level that will deter most existing threats. It just about risk, motivation and cost. A network connected to the Matrix is under the threat of hackers from anywhere in the world, 24 hours a day, 365.2425 days a year. A courier is under the threat of physical aggression for a few hours each time. If the opposition have the motivation to watch a facility for several weeks or months to identify the courier and the route he takes, and physically attack him to steal the chip, then they're likely to have the motivation to hack through a firewall.

Of course, the whole point of Shadowrun is to defeat security. So obviously, the gamemaster has to design measures that are somehow unsecure. Relatively.

Of course security is always relative, and you can never have enough to make anything 100% secure. But there are different sorts of risk. Matrix risk is generally pretty low, but over an extended period. Courier risk is very high, but only for a short period.

Remember, a well-funded team of corp hackers usually isn't employed to crack into a matrix site for the explicit reason that the corp funding the operation could potentially be traced and open them up to huge risks in the corporate court. The same reason that corp special forces don't go traipsing into office buildings fishing for files. The entire reason Shadowrunners exist is because the corps want SINless noncitizen disposable deniable assets that never have enough information to get anyone in trouble but themselves ("who do you work for?" "Mr Johnson, that's all I know"). In that world, the number of actual people actually well-funded and competent enough to crack a secured Matrix site is relatively low -- remember that a good deck/commlink and all the assorted programs and goodies (not to mention the necessary cyberware) are all godawfully expensive, and a high-rating agent/IC with high rating programs (all written in-house by wageslaves) are relatively cheap.

Meanwhile, the courier is at risk of falling under simple surveillance (drones/satellites/eyes), corporate espionage, loose lips and social engineering, bribery or blackmail, and ultimately bullets. Those are different sorts of risks, and there are surely corporate executives weighing those risks against each other every day in the Shadowrun universe.

What can't possibly be the case is that someone's successfully hacking into every secure matrix site every day, just because your PC hacker can do it. Otherwise matrix security and corporate practices would logically have to be so tight there'd be no game there. This gets back to the idea being that all of these matrix connections must therefore be necessary for some Shadowrun universe reason. So here are some reasons:

1) Physical security on the move is very difficult/dangerous. Due to the way that information is treated as currency, any scrap of paydata, any kidnapped wageslave family member, any vehicle tracking number bribed out of the GridGuide system monitors, and so on, might lead back to a covert courier's identity or whereabouts.

2) Corps are rightfully paranoid about espionage. Breaking into a facility is illegal and the corporate court will smack you for it. Coercing or bribing a scientist or a programmer or a wagemage into leaving a door cracked, or dropping an access card in a fountain, or revealing some little helpful detail no matter how small could knock over an entire physical security operation or compromise 'cold storage' data with no foolproof way to track what happened. Data on corporate matrix sites can be audited and monitored.

3) Matrix security is generally good enough to keep out all but the best and most well-equipped on a day to day basis, weighed by risk-vs-cost.

4) A distributed network is safer for data storage than a concentrated physical storage site, and remember data = money. Data isn't just stuff that people like to steal, the corps are actually making money from it, developing it, using it, selling it. Making everything off-grid data stores moved by courier would essentially make a corp the kooky old guy who stores his cash in coffee cans buried in his backyard, and occasionally digs one up and secretly moves it in the dead of night to his brother's farm (again, to bury it in the cow pasture), and back again. No, data has to be backed up, stored, protected, and yet remain easy to distribute.

5) Most data is remarkably useless to the Shadowrunner. A corporation might develop a software tweak to help an assembly line produce aglets 1% more efficiently, and need to move that to one of their automated factory facilities. Would anyone really care? No. Will that save them millions of nuyen? Yes. So the company needs a more efficient and cheaper way of moving that information than a physical courier with physical security possibly needing to move around the globe (process developed in Uzbekistan, needed in Bogota). Which means they'll need to open up a matrix connection, because hey they might as well pick up the thousands of megapulses of equipment and production logs, stock logs, personnel timesheets, and reports while they're at it. The data that exists just isn't steal-worthy stuff. The vast majority of it, in fact, has no street value.

6) Destroying data is almost as good as stealing it. That worthless data above? It's very valuable to the corp that uses it, but not so much to other people. If you can hire a team to go trash all the data storage you can cost that company tons of money while they try to recover what they can and re-ship those aglet manufacturing upgrades. This could set them back on aglet production at a critical time and allow your new Aglecorp subsidiary to win the contract producing aglets for Lone Star uniforms throughout the UCAS. And there goes a huge profit (and probably some executive suicides) all because the corp was too paranoid to drop a matrix line out to a factory of virtually no other consequence.

[Nath]

Remember, a well-funded team of corp hackers usually isn't employed to crack into a matrix site for the explicit reason that the corp funding the operation could potentially be traced and open them up to huge risks in the corporate court. The same reason that corp special forces don't go traipsing into office buildings fishing for files. The entire reason Shadowrunners exist is because the corps want SINless noncitizen disposable deniable assets that never have enough information to get anyone in trouble but themselves ("who do you work for?" "Mr Johnson, that's all I know"). In that world, the number of actual people actually well-funded and competent enough to crack a secured Matrix site is relatively low -- remember that a good deck/commlink and all the assorted programs and goodies (not to mention the necessary cyberware) are all godawfully expensive, and a high-rating agent/IC with high rating programs (all written in-house by wageslaves) are relatively cheap.

Meanwhile, the courier is at risk of falling under simple surveillance (drones/satellites/eyes), corporate espionage, loose lips and social engineering, bribery or blackmail, and ultimately bullets. Those are different sorts of risks, and there are surely corporate executives weighing those risks against each other every day in the Shadowrun universe.

Simple surveillance is not going to bring you anything of use. Bribery is not going to be cheap. Surveillance satellite really aren't cheap either, and aren't going to bring you anything of use ("Are you telling me we spent a billion dollar on a satellite so you can brief us that there are cars with unindentified people inside driving from MCT lab in Bellevue to MCT downtown on a daily basis?").

I consider the number of actual people actually well-funded and competent enough to stop a car carrying one or two armed guards, seize the chip they're carrying before any of them has the chance to activate the erase function, and escape, is relatively low as well. Such team is actually quite likely to require a good hacker among them, and each street sam to pack as much nuyen in ware than the cost of a decent hacking suit of programs.
Meanwhile, a hacker can get into a node anywhere in the world, and doesn't need more than a few hours to do it.

Sure, we all know how to walk and how to grab, while most don't know what stack overflow and sequence prediction attack mean. Even Navy SEALs plan can be as simple as "open the door and look into the room". It may be easier to conceive how a physical security can be defeated. It doesn't mean it's easier to do.

What can't possibly be the case is that someone's successfully hacking into every secure matrix site every day, just because your PC hacker can do it. Otherwise matrix security and corporate practices would logically have to be so tight there'd be no game there. This gets back to the idea being that all of these matrix connections must therefore be necessary for some Shadowrun universe reason

Oddly enough, you used the plural practices but reads like there's only one. I am for one not saying there should be no Matrix connection and al data transfer should rely on courier. There are facilities who are going to be online because benefit vs. risk tends toward this solution. And I think there are a minority of facilities who are going to have offline network because benefit vs. risk goes the other way.

MCT computer security lab is likely to have an online node because they need a wide access to the Matrix, to communicate with the rest of the company, download bug and security reports from customers, upload security update as fast as possible, outsource icon designs to Indian coders, and order pizzas.

The Shiawase MIFD would have an online node, and a separate offline node because they need to maintain a list of their clandestine agents and their cover, and the slightest breach of security would have tremendous consequences. The management is unlikely to consider "only a few dozen of people in the world can hack it and it's unlikely to happen more than once every two or three years" a satisfying answer.

And I don't think that having some site with a Matrix security so tight is going to ruin the game. I would rather this could actually comes in hand quite often for the GM to tell the story the way he wants.

[Cain]

I think you guys are hitting on one of the biggest flaws of the SR4.5 matrix, which is that it's heavily based on an imperfect understanding of modern computing. All editions of SR have this flaw, but SR4.x is the worst, since they tried harder to mimic the real world while not knowing a whole lot about it.

Wireless decking is not a bad idea. I was doing it as far back as SR2. Having everything be interconnected isn't a bad idea either, although it leads to serious problems; SR1-2 dealt with this via system maps and one-way datalines, but Sr4.5 has no such thing. In short, I think they went for realism over playability, but accidentally failed at both.

[phlapjack77]

5) Most data is remarkably useless to the Shadowrunner. A corporation might develop a software tweak to help an assembly line produce aglets 1% more efficiently, and need to move that to one of their automated factory facilities. Would anyone really care? No. Will that save them millions of nuyen? Yes. So the company needs a more efficient and cheaper way of moving that information than a physical courier with physical security possibly needing to move around the globe (process developed in Uzbekistan, needed in Bogota). Which means they'll need to open up a matrix connection, because hey they might as well pick up the thousands of megapulses of equipment and production logs, stock logs, personnel timesheets, and reports while they're at it. The data that exists just isn't steal-worthy stuff. The vast majority of it, in fact, has no street value.

This is totally not really important, but I felt that this item wasn't exactly true. I think most any actual corp data that isn't "publicly available" is valuable to those others who can get their hands on it. In your example, getting the "equipment and production logs, stock logs, personnel timesheets, and reports" for a rival company could prove invaluable. Gives a slight edge to the Aglecorp subsidary to know what the rival company is paying employees, which employees they might want to poach, trends in equipment or production logs (ramping up for a new product?), reports listing testing results, etc.

Even the software tweak you mention could be really valuable to competitors who steal it. They can do several things, including using the tweak themselves, holding it for ransom, or modifying the tweak and inserting it back so that the company loses millions instead of saving millions. If something saves millions, I would think it would be worth 10s (100s?) of thousands to have, at least.

I don't have a degree in business or finance or anything, so of course I could be way off base. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Epicedion]

I think you guys are hitting on one of the biggest flaws of the SR4.5 matrix, which is that it's heavily based on an imperfect understanding of modern computing. All editions of SR have this flaw, but SR4.x is the worst, since they tried harder to mimic the real world while not knowing a whole lot about it.

Wireless decking is not a bad idea. I was doing it as far back as SR2. Having everything be interconnected isn't a bad idea either, although it leads to serious problems; SR1-2 dealt with this via system maps and one-way datalines, but Sr4.5 has no such thing. In short, I think they went for realism over playability, but accidentally failed at both.

Wireless decking isn't an awful idea, but I think it creates a lot of problems for the game, especially with the system that's in place to handle it. Also if you have an unconnected network you shoot security in the foot -- security hackers would have to be on-site (also opening up the danger of access to their own commlinks just by physical proximity, meaning potential spoofing of security-level users), meaning a well-placed grenade is all you need to take down the most meaningful security response. And if a site is physically lost there's no way for additional security to remotely move in to retake it.

Just as physical security tends to have a backup (ARTs on standby to assault and retake a facility), matrix locations would have off-site backups ready to hack back in and secure the site, so even if a hacker totally destroyed all the local matrix security, they'd still be on a clock to get their job done and get out fast before the cavalry arrived, which would conceivably arrive in a matter of seconds.

Ultimately I find SR4 matrix sites too easy to hack and too difficult to design effectively, since there are a ton of decisions you have to make about each node (which leads to designing sites with as few nodes as possible), and it's almost like designing a system that's effective in one way makes it virtually undefendable from other angles.

This is why I kind of think they should backtrack a little and draw a hard distinction between a fixed site and a commlink -- hacking a commlink should be fast and furious, achievable in combat, and better integrated, something that's in the sole realm of the dedicated hacker. Hacking a fixed site should be a little more complicated and should honestly be something that an entire team could potentially get involved in, even if all they have is an off-the-rack commlink and a couple decent utility programs. Then you could really get back to these sites as 'virtual dungeons' full of their own traps, challenges, and monsters, where the hacker is the strongest character but no one is completely useless. That would solve the pizza problem.

You could accomplish this by giving the hacker an option to break open a hole in the system that allows other people to connect undetected (or rather detected based on the hacker's ability and not their own) and then mask the others' activity sort of like a mage provides Counterspelling. While the hacker in meatspace might have a few points in Pistols and a decent gun, the street samurai could likewise have a few points in hacking or cybercombat and a decent attack program, standing by to assist the hacker. The mage could even have a couple points in computer and a decent Analyze program and stand by as a sentry. The infiltrator might have a decent system and dedicate time to defeating traces to buy the group time so the hacker can ultimately disarm the data bombs and decrypt the files before covering the team's escape. If you block off hot-sim from non-cybered connections (illegally modified datajacks) you could get a mix of cold-sim, hot-sim, and AR members all operating at various levels, and the matrix could become an analogue for meatworld activities and combat, just with the roles all flipped around. Given an added amount of complexity to the treatment of the matrix, you could even make more room for individual non-hackers to specialize in some useful task while keeping the hacker as king of the hill -- he'd be the street samurai or mage of the matrix, while the street samurai gets to be street samurai of the street and the mage gets to be the mage of magic.

[Epicedion]

This is totally not really important, but I felt that this item wasn't exactly true. I think most any actual corp data that isn't "publicly available" is valuable to those others who can get their hands on it. In your example, getting the "equipment and production logs, stock logs, personnel timesheets, and reports" for a rival company could prove invaluable. Gives a slight edge to the Aglecorp subsidary to know what the rival company is paying employees, which employees they might want to poach, trends in equipment or production logs (ramping up for a new product?), reports listing testing results, etc.

Even the software tweak you mention could be really valuable to competitors who steal it. They can do several things, including using the tweak themselves, holding it for ransom, or modifying the tweak and inserting it back so that the company loses millions instead of saving millions. If something saves millions, I would think it would be worth 10s (100s?) of thousands to have, at least.

I don't have a degree in business or finance or anything, so of course I could be way off base. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

What I'm getting at is that most information has value but virtually no utility to anyone but the owner -- you could spend a great deal of money hiring a team to steal the data and then have to throw it through so much R&D to apply it yourself that you'd have been better off just ignoring it. Runner teams might grab it as an opportunity target, but most of the time they'd never know if they were getting something juicy that will sell, or the formula for New Coke. Hence why random paydata ('hey while we're in here..') usually has low payouts -- the corp has to take time to sift through it and see if it's actually useful, which all costs time and money. And why runs tend to target specific things (prototypes, schematics, etc) that corps have found out about through their various means (espionage, bribery, threats, data mining, etc) that runners don't tend to worry much about. A corp isn't going to pay a runner team a whole bunch of nuyen to steal something that might be vaguely useful if they're lucky.

[kzt]

I think you guys are hitting on one of the biggest flaws of the SR4.5 matrix, which is that it's heavily based on an imperfect understanding of modern computing. All editions of SR have this flaw, but SR4.x is the worst, since they tried harder to mimic the real world while not knowing a whole lot about it.

Pretty much. They tried to mix their limited understanding of how computer networks and computer security work with their interpretations of what Mr. Mechanical Typewriter wrote and what they remember of TRON and ended up producing such a contradictory mess that the developer and the team that wrote the rules can't make it work even for a single painstakingly written example.

TRON was 31 years ago. Neuromancer was 28 years ago. It's time to move on. At this point every person who might possibly play 5th edition SR has a computer on the Internet. Why not start writing rules that make sense and appeal to these people instead of writing yet another game that is pitched at people whose formative moment was watching TRON in a movie theater in 1982?

[phlapjack77]

What I'm getting at is that most information has value but virtually no utility to anyone but the owner -- you could spend a great deal of money hiring a team to steal the data and then have to throw it through so much R&D to apply it yourself that you'd have been better off just ignoring it. Runner teams might grab it as an opportunity target, but most of the time they'd never know if they were getting something juicy that will sell, or the formula for New Coke. Hence why random paydata ('hey while we're in here..') usually has low payouts -- the corp has to take time to sift through it and see if it's actually useful, which all costs time and money. And why runs tend to target specific things (prototypes, schematics, etc) that corps have found out about through their various means (espionage, bribery, threats, data mining, etc) that runners don't tend to worry much about. A corp isn't going to pay a runner team a whole bunch of nuyen to steal something that might be vaguely useful if they're lucky.

I see it from a different angle - a corp might not specifically hire a team to steal something like payroll data, but they probably would be willing to pay some amount for it. It would be a matter of shopping it around, having your fixer / fence find the right buyer, etc. In your R&D example above, the stolen data doesn't have to actually produce anything, it can just be information on where the company is headed, what they are researching, where they are spending their money. If corp A is producing a wiz new widget that will dominate the market that needs parts X,Y, and Z, then competing corp B can work to corner the market on parts Y and Z to keep corp A from succeeding. Or something.

Any data that a company doesn't have to show publicly, will be behind some kind of matrix defenses. Maybe not very strong defenses, but something. I'm reminded of Snow Crash, where Hiro finds a few seconds of some video clip in a company's virtual trashbin, and lives off the proceeds for a month by selling it to a pop-culture website (ref needed).

I bet the New Coke formula was worth a lot, at one point. Maybe not now...

Anyway, I'm just arguing to argue, and feeling pedantic about it, so I'll stop (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

Pretty much. They tried to mix their limited understanding of how computer networks and computer security work with their interpretations of what Mr. Mechanical Typewriter wrote and what they remember of TRON and ended up producing such a contradictory mess that the developer and the team that wrote the rules can't make it work even for a single painstakingly written example.

TRON was 31 years ago. Neuromancer was 28 years ago. It's time to move on. At this point every person who might possibly play 5th edition SR has a computer on the Internet. Why not start writing rules that make sense and appeal to these people instead of writing yet another game that is pitched at people whose formative moment was watching TRON in a movie theater in 1982?

I actually disagree here. I think they should divorce it from modern computing entirely, and create a system based on sheer wow factor. If they went pure TRON/Neuromancer, they could come up with something very cool and playable, and not have to worry about if it seems realistic to a modern computer user. Sure, it'd be a lot of style over substance, but if the rules work and things look cool, I think a lot of players would overlook technical accuracy.

Part of the reason Shadowrun endures so was is that it was iconic. Shadowrun's setting influenced the entire cyberpunk movement, and the mechanics influenced the entire World of Darkness. (I'm not exaggerating in the slightest-- if you look at the original books, they have some of the same playtesters, and I believe Mark Rein Hagen was one of them.) Being iconic, people can overlook the fact that it's not 100% real-- no one complains about the lack of internet in Star Wars, for example. A balls-to-the-wall, neon cowboy matrix could be fun, easy to play, and avoid all concerns about being unrealistic. Shadowrun has never quite achieved this, but it's what it originally tried to do.

[phlapjack77]

I actually disagree here. I think they should divorce it from modern computing entirely, and create a system based on sheer wow factor. If they went pure TRON/Neuromancer, they could come up with something very cool and playable, and not have to worry about if it seems realistic to a modern computer user. Sure, it'd be a lot of style over substance, but if the rules work and things look cool, I think a lot of players would overlook technical accuracy.

Part of the reason Shadowrun endures so was is that it was iconic. Shadowrun's setting influenced the entire cyberpunk movement, and the mechanics influenced the entire World of Darkness. (I'm not exaggerating in the slightest-- if you look at the original books, they have some of the same playtesters, and I believe Mark Rein Hagen was one of them.) Being iconic, people can overlook the fact that it's not 100% real-- no one complains about the lack of internet in Star Wars, for example. A balls-to-the-wall, neon cowboy matrix could be fun, easy to play, and avoid all concerns about being unrealistic. Shadowrun has never quite achieved this, but it's what it originally tried to do.

I agree with you, but I suspect only because I also grew up with the cool stories of SR and Gibson and so on. The idea of the "neon cowboy matrix" is cool to me, a (somewhat) older gamer. Perhaps younger generations won't find it such a cool concept, the same way that (I think) younger generations didn't have as many problems with all of the changes in Star Wars. It seems a difficult tightrope to walk, attracting new blood while still somewhat catering to old-timers.

[Fatum]

I actually disagree here. I think they should divorce it from modern computing entirely, and create a system based on sheer wow factor. If they went pure TRON/Neuromancer, they could come up with something very cool and playable, and not have to worry about if it seems realistic to a modern computer user. Sure, it'd be a lot of style over substance, but if the rules work and things look cool, I think a lot of players would overlook technical accuracy.

It's not about technical accuracy, it's about intuitive understanding and creative usage. It's easier to understand how classical medieval equipment can be creatively used in a stereotypical dungeon than how vaguely defined superscience devices can in a physical reality hardly resembling our own.
So completely divorcing Matrix from RL computing is making it much poorer as a system, imo, on par with Astral (without the metaplane shenanigans).

[Cain]

It's not about technical accuracy, it's about intuitive understanding and creative usage. It's easier to understand how classical medieval equipment can be creatively used in a stereotypical dungeon than how vaguely defined superscience devices can in a physical reality hardly resembling our own.
So completely divorcing Matrix from RL computing is making it much poorer as a system, imo, on par with Astral (without the metaplane shenanigans).

Like I said, if they came up with something cool and playable, I think that'd go over better than realistic and believable. People can suspend disbelief more readily if the wow factor is high enough. Nobody seriously questions technology in Star Trek or Star Wars, because they're cool. There's no reason why Shadowrun can't do the same thing.

[Sengir]

Having everything be interconnected isn't a bad idea either

...but a bad interpretation of the rules, even as far back as the original 4th ed BBB

[Cain]

...but a bad interpretation of the rules, even as far back as the original 4th ed BBB

Like I said, the concept itself isn't bad. The execution left a lot to be desired, though. They really should have thought things through better.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ultimately I find SR4 matrix sites too easy to hack and too difficult to design effectively, since there are a ton of decisions you have to make about each node (which leads to designing sites with as few nodes as possible), and it's almost like designing a system that's effective in one way makes it virtually undefendable from other angles.

This is why I kind of think they should backtrack a little and draw a hard distinction between a fixed site and a commlink -- hacking a commlink should be fast and furious, achievable in combat, and better integrated, something that's in the sole realm of the dedicated hacker. Hacking a fixed site should be a little more complicated and should honestly be something that an entire team could potentially get involved in, even if all they have is an off-the-rack commlink and a couple decent utility programs. Then you could really get back to these sites as 'virtual dungeons' full of their own traps, challenges, and monsters, where the hacker is the strongest character but no one is completely useless. That would solve the pizza problem.

You could accomplish this by giving the hacker an option to break open a hole in the system that allows other people to connect undetected (or rather detected based on the hacker's ability and not their own) and then mask the others' activity sort of like a mage provides Counterspelling. While the hacker in meatspace might have a few points in Pistols and a decent gun, the street samurai could likewise have a few points in hacking or cybercombat and a decent attack program, standing by to assist the hacker. The mage could even have a couple points in computer and a decent Analyze program and stand by as a sentry. The infiltrator might have a decent system and dedicate time to defeating traces to buy the group time so the hacker can ultimately disarm the data bombs and decrypt the files before covering the team's escape. If you block off hot-sim from non-cybered connections (illegally modified datajacks) you could get a mix of cold-sim, hot-sim, and AR members all operating at various levels, and the matrix could become an analogue for meatworld activities and combat, just with the roles all flipped around. Given an added amount of complexity to the treatment of the matrix, you could even make more room for individual non-hackers to specialize in some useful task while keeping the hacker as king of the hill -- he'd be the street samurai or mage of the matrix, while the street samurai gets to be street samurai of the street and the mage gets to be the mage of magic.

But there is nothing stopping you from doing that in SR4A. You can indeed set up Hacks exactly like you describe, but, from what you indicate, you do not have the patience for this kind of scenario creation. If you design them effectively, they will provide the challenge you desire, but you indicated that that is too dificult and thus is a waste of time.

Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying here. I am truly curious and not trying to make any waves here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I actually disagree here. I think they should divorce it from modern computing entirely, and create a system based on sheer wow factor. If they went pure TRON/Neuromancer, they could come up with something very cool and playable, and not have to worry about if it seems realistic to a modern computer user. Sure, it'd be a lot of style over substance, but if the rules work and things look cool, I think a lot of players would overlook technical accuracy.

Part of the reason Shadowrun endures so was is that it was iconic. Shadowrun's setting influenced the entire cyberpunk movement, and the mechanics influenced the entire World of Darkness. (I'm not exaggerating in the slightest-- if you look at the original books, they have some of the same playtesters, and I believe Mark Rein Hagen was one of them.) Being iconic, people can overlook the fact that it's not 100% real-- no one complains about the lack of internet in Star Wars, for example. A balls-to-the-wall, neon cowboy matrix could be fun, easy to play, and avoid all concerns about being unrealistic. Shadowrun has never quite achieved this, but it's what it originally tried to do.

I could get behind that entirely. Since I already completely ignore the disconnect between Game and Computer Knowledge anyways, this would probably be really, really cool. Unfortunately, I do not see that actually happening. I agree that it was their originating intent, but it has gone far by the wayside. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Epicedion]

Like I said, if they came up with something cool and playable, I think that'd go over better than realistic and believable. People can suspend disbelief more readily if the wow factor is high enough. Nobody seriously questions technology in Star Trek or Star Wars, because they're cool. There's no reason why Shadowrun can't do the same thing.

Real computers are awfully boring and don't lend themselves well to Shadowrun.

But there is nothing stopping you from doing that in SR4A. You can indeed set up Hacks exactly like you describe, but, from what you indicate, you do not have the patience for this kind of scenario creation. If you design them effectively, they will provide the challenge you desire, but you indicated that that is too dificult and thus is a waste of time.

Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying here. I am truly curious and not trying to make any waves here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I really can't tell what you're responding to here.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I really can't tell what you're responding to here.

Sorry... The post I quoted of yours started as such.

Ultimately I find SR4 matrix sites too easy to hack and too difficult to design effectively, since there are a ton of decisions you have to make about each node (which leads to designing sites with as few nodes as possible), and it's almost like designing a system that's effective in one way makes it virtually undefendable from other angles.

You then went on to describe what you wanted to see as a system Hack. My point is that you can do that in SR4A, if you want to do so, and I was confused by the above quote. You say that you find that matrix hacks are too easy, and you would prefer a more complex Network as a target to attack (to hack into) but you are not wanting to take the time and effort to provide such a network, because thay are too difficult to design effectively, because they require too many decisions that need to be made, and thus, the design principle is to use as few nodes as possible to design the network.

It seems like you want more complexity in your target hacks, but you are not willing to actually take the time to actually put it in place because it is difficult and requires too many decisions? I do not understand this logic, and would like to better understand it.

[Epicedion]

Sorry... The post I quoted of yours started as such.



You then went on to describe what you wanted to see as a system Hack. My point is that you can do that in SR4A, if you want to do so, and I was confused by the above quote. You say that you find that matrix hacks are too easy, and you would prefer a more complex Network as a target to attack (to hack into) but you are not wanting to take the time and effort to provide such a network, because thay are too difficult to design effectively, because they require too many decisions that need to be made, and thus, the design principle is to use as few nodes as possible to design the network.

It seems like you want more complexity in your target hacks, but you are not willing to actually take the time to actually put it in place because it is difficult and requires too many decisions? I do not understand this logic, and would like to better understand it.

SR 4 hacking adds in the nontrivial steps of determining if nodes are wireless (wireless and connected or wireless and standalone) as well as determining security levels and associated system rights for each node. Furthermore you have to design nodes with agents and programs (as opposed to just IC), and keep in mind that there's a program limit on each node (and for quasi-realism's sake you have to leave some space for actual workers). That means each node becomes a lot of decisions for the GM, and since hacking tasks are aimed generally at one person in any group it seems like an awful lot of effort for not a huge payoff in terms of session utility.

[Epicedion]

To put it another way, designing a "good" matrix site would be a lot like designing a traps-and-puzzles dungeon for the party rogue in Fantasy RPG, and leaving everyone else standing around outside waiting.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

To put it another way, designing a "good" matrix site would be a lot like designing a traps-and-puzzles dungeon for the party rogue in Fantasy RPG, and leaving everyone else standing around outside waiting.

Hmmmmm... Strange... I have not had the issues you talk about. As I have indicated... Our Networks are complex and they flow in tandem with the combat around us. Probably helps that our Primary Shadowrun GM has been running his Matrix the same way for at least the last 3 Editions, so only the mechanics have actually changed. I don't know.

I do know he has never been completely happy with the Matrix overall, but then, who has. But it does work well, if you put the time in.

In your previous post you talk about teh many tasks and design steps that are required, and you are right, it does require some thought. But I do think that the thought processes are not all that difficult. In my experience Matrix design is pretty easy, and is quite fun. Though I really like that kind of stuff, so I do spend a lot of time just fiddling with the little things. Maybe it is just me, then. Would not be the first time that my OCD for setting details blinds me to the issues that others have.

Thanks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[kzt]

Like I said, if they came up with something cool and playable, I think that'd go over better than realistic and believable. People can suspend disbelief more readily if the wow factor is high enough. Nobody seriously questions technology in Star Trek or Star Wars, because they're cool. There's no reason why Shadowrun can't do the same thing.

In theory. But the problem has been there is no there there in SR. Decking/hacking has not really worked well in any edition of SR. And based on those universes that I care about, people into SW or ST do in fact argue deeply over the tech. Midichlorians anyone?

It's a real problem if the supporting fluff isn't firmly supported by the rules. Players don't like it when they go to do something "cool" that makes sense from the fluff and find out that in the game mechanics it sucks, it isn't allowed or requires a two hour pizza run.

You need a strong model that the writers understand and can use, and then a line developer who can control the fluff and the crunch and make them mesh. It's a lot easier to understand computers when you are using the real world as a basis, just like it is easier for players to understand a car racing game where horsepower, tires and weight are important elements rather then one where the car color, day of the month and whether Virgo is rising are important elements.

[Cain]

The problem with using the real world as a basis is exactly what we have in SR4.5. They tried to model things off the WinXP user's manual, and look what we got. The system is not simple, nor intuitive, and not especially cool or playable.

The key is, as you say, consistency and playability. Somebody needs to design a matrix physics engine and stick to it. If reality disagrees with the system, ignore reality so long as it's playable, and screw reality if it's fun.

[DeathStrobe]

Not to bring this post back from the dead.

But with the mutual signal range rule (SR4a p 224), the hacker does have to be on site in order to hack if there is no public account and/or if its off the Matrix. Because that's the only way to probe the firewall in order to find an account to hack in to. And if a building is built as a Faraday cage (UW p63) there is no way to get access from the outside. And it'd make sense that highly sensitive data would be kept in a network that is only inside a Faraday cage building/room.

I don't think stay at home hacking is viable.

[Falconer]

No.. he doesn't need mutual signal range to hack. The page you reference to access/login you need to subscribe whether it's direct connect (mutual range) or going through the matrix.

He can hack from farther than that, he just needs to use up a subscription to do so... (and I'd say this would also leave more in the access log to track him if noticed in time). Notice that big 'or' immediately afterwards about simply going through the network.

p235 hacking....
Must have mutual signal range or direct connect... *OR* spend a subscription through the matrix.