Sneaky Weapons Options

[yesferatu]

So I'm building an infiltration face and I need to get some gear.
I'm probably just going to go with the close combat group for close quiet close encounters.
I need a gun modded for sneakyness - probably non-lethal.

I was just going to combine the Covert-Ops and Face concepts, although I know they could each use some work.

Any suggestions?

[_Pax._]

One option is simply a Defiance EX Shocker. Useful both at range and in melee. Throw on a Lanyard, a Personalised Grip, and a Flashlight in a suitabel wavelength (all Modifications, per Arsenal rules), and you've got a pretty useful, versatile tool.

...

Another option is a Morrisey Elan, with the following modifications:

• Silencer
• Laser Sight
• Electronic Firing
• Barrel Reduction

This is about as concealable and undetectible as a gun can get; add a concealable holster, and wear a Long Coat; your Conceal jumps to -8 ...!! And don't forget, it comes with level 3 Ceramic/Plastic Components for free ... so it's immune to MAD detection. The firing and silencer combine for a -7 to detect it going off, too.

Load it with Gel, SnS, or appropriately-filled Capsule rounds, and you've got a very VERY concealable, subtle, and nonlethal holdout.

...

If you want something heavier than a holdout, and you've more money than sense (and are willing to burn BP/Karma on the "Restricted Gear" quality) you could go with a PSK-3 Puzzler heavy pistol, with:

• Silencer
• Laser Sight
• Electronic Firing
• Ceramic/Plasteel Components R3

That sucker will set you back a pretty steep 17,600¥ before ammunition, though. But even a determiend pat-down probably won't turn it up ... at least, not as a GUN. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[yesferatu]

You'd go with that over a Cavalier Scout with level 1 ceramic parts?

Where does it list the Elan as level 3 plasteel components?
Level 3 is like 18F - I don't think the base gun has level 3 at that cost.

[_Pax._]

You'd go with that over a Cavalier Scout with level 1 ceramic parts?

You'll note I expanded upon my post, after just blurting out the first thoughts to spring to mind.

The Morrisey Elan has level THREE ceramic parts. It's completely invisible to a MAD, period. The MAD doesn't even get to roll dice.

Either the Elan or the PSK-3 are far superior choices to the Scout, especially modified as I've outlined above. Both will be preternaturally silent (-7 to perception rolls to detect them being fired), both are completely invisible to MAD scanners. The Elan wil be extremely conealable; the PSK-3 doesn't look like a gun at all when folded.

The PSK-3, however, is much more expensive, AND requires a special Quality. And loaded with SnS, does neither more nor less damage than the Elan does, using the same SnS ammo.

...

Oh, and the Defiance EX? 8S(e) is nothing to turn your nose up at. Especially since it's inherently alsoa melee weapon, doing the same 8S(e). And if you ARE found with it, you're less likely to get into lots of trouble as a result.

[yesferatu]

I just saw that.
That pretty much answers that.
Shame about the teeny tiny clip.

[_Pax._]

5c isn't much worse than 7c. And at the Light/Holdout level, well, "if you need to reload, the pooch has already been thoroughly screwed". Heh.

[FuelDrop]

Morrisey Elan with easy breakdown and silencer. if you want a gun that absolutely, positively WILL NOT BE FOUND, this is it. you will need to spend three initiative passes reassembling it before actually using it, but that's a small price to pay for a gun that can go anywhere.
Ammo is going to be an issue, chem sniffers ect don'tchaknow? there are some tricks to get past that but I'll leave those to the mirror-shaded black-trenchcoated brigade to explain, as they'll do it better than I ever could.

[_Pax._]

Vacuum Sealer handles chemsniffers. Hi-C plastic rounds, if you don't mind lethal, handles he ammo being picked up by a MAD.

[FuelDrop]

Vacuum Sealer handles chemsniffers. Hi-C plastic rounds, if you don't mind lethal, handles he ammo being picked up by a MAD.

Presumably Gel rounds are also MAD-proof, if you prefer a less lethal option. I can't remember what the trick for smuggling ammo past a cyberware scanner is, though.

[Modular Man]

What is the goal here? To always have a gun on you, regardless of control posts and sensors? Or can weapon checks by security personnel be avoided another way?

Another idea for some cases:
If you are already going for low magazine size and a vacuum sealing, you may want to use capsule rounds filled with lethal and less-than-lethal poisons. An ammo skip system might come in handy there, and maybe ask your GM for something similar to a brass catcher - those usually catch shells of depleted ammunition, might as well catch still viable capsule rounds. I have acquired a (not literal) taste for poisons, my GM will not see it coming (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) They get expensive, though.
Licenses for about anything are also a way to go.

If you apply the cost multiplicators of full ceramic weapons to all additional modifications as the rules suggest the above-mentioned Morrissey Elan might get expensive quickly (I don't see why this should not be the case for this weapon). The base gun is very cheap for its abilities, but modding it, well...
There's also the option to create a gun that can be taken apart and there's even an already described model.

I personally like the (ceramic) light or pistol crossbow. Decent reach, silent, some kind of ammo selection (not much capacity for a firefight, though) and if you make it also collapsible (expensive in combination with rank 3 ceramics), it becomes harder to recognize than gun parts. There's also almost no chemical traces (unless you use poisoned or injection bolts, which are very useful in their own way). Granted, a projectile weapon is a unlikely weapon to have and also packs less punch than a gun - just wanted to give an alternative.

Did you consider implanted weaponry? Used alphaware cyberguns are not that easily detected by cyberscanners and a face can handwave a lot of questions about that particular metallic implant in his or her arm.

The fully legal Defiance EX Shocker mentioned above is also very useful.

You could also disguise a (cheap) pistol as a taser, using the Disguised Equipment rules in "Arsenal".

[_Pax._]

Presumably Gel rounds are also MAD-proof, if you prefer a less lethal option.

Good point. Heremtically-sealed Gel and Capsule rounds should be pretty detector-proof.

I can't remember what the trick for smuggling ammo past a cyberware scanner is, though.

... don't even get em started on how ineffectual those scanners should be in real life, due to pesky little thins like "laws of physics" and the like, which don't change with the advance of technology.

[CanRay]

Fists. Completely legal, and if you surprise someone with a completely innocent look until your bioware-augmented body snaps their neck they'll be really surprised!

[FuelDrop]

Fists. Completely legal, and if you surprise someone with a completely innocent look until your bioware-augmented body snaps their neck they'll be really surprised!

I thought you needed a licence to carry a pair of fists? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
Anyway, while the fists are legal the bone augs you need to make them deadly aren't.

[_Pax._]

I thought you needed a licence to carry a pair of fists? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
Anyway, while the fists are legal the bone augs you need to make them deadly aren't.

... and Plastic, Ceramic, or Kevlar are so easy to detect ...

[FuelDrop]

My sarcasm senses are tingling...

IIRC Kevlar doesn't boost your unarmed damage, but the other two are perfectly valid. Personally I'd go for bone density augmentation, as it's not only as effective as Titanium bone lacing (potentially) but is also only restricted.

[_Pax._]

IIRC Kevlar doesn't boost your unarmed damage, [...]

Huh, so they don't. O_o

[...] but the other two are perfectly valid. Personally I'd go for bone density augmentation, as it's not only as effective as Titanium bone lacing (potentially) but is also only restricted.

Bone Density is also expensive.

As for R or F status; honestly I don't understand why Plastic is F. It should be R ... because I can easily see it being used for reconstructive purposes on people with a sufficiently-large number of broken bones, either all at once, or cumulatively over time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) *shrug*

[CanRay]

As for R or F status; honestly I don't understand why Plastic is F. It should be R ... because I can easily see it being used for reconstructive purposes on people with a sufficiently-large number of broken bones, either all at once, or cumulatively over time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) *shrug*

Probably for the same reason they tried to legislate Glocks as they "were made of plastic and ceramics, and thus couldn't be found with Metal Detectors." Plastic Bone Lacing won't set off a low-level MAD, possibly not even a high-end one.

That said, yeah... A bit of background work and the right Fake SIN/License, and: "Sir, do you realize you have Bone Lacing?" "Yes, I'm painfully aware of it. Car accident. License and details are in my SIN." "So they are, sir, sorry to have inconvenienced you. I hope your recovery was swift."

[_Pax._]

Probably for the same reason they tried to legislate Glocks as they "were made of plastic and ceramics, and thus couldn't be found with Metal Detectors." Plastic Bone Lacing won't set off a low-level MAD, possibly not even a high-end one.

Plstic Bone LAcing won't set off ANY kind od MAD (which stands for "Magnetic Anomaly Detector"). Physics, CanRay, trump pretty much everything. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That said, yeah... A bit of background work and the right Fake SIN/License, and: "Sir, do you realize you have Bone Lacing?" "Yes, I'm painfully aware of it. Car accident. License and details are in my SIN." "So they are, sir, sorry to have inconvenienced you. I hope your recovery was swift."

^_^

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Good point. Heremtically-sealed Gel and Capsule rounds should be pretty detector-proof.

Nope, the chemsniffer has to beat a threshold 3 test, instead of 2. And it gets a DP bonus for every 10 rounds of ammo (SR4A, p.262). Only Nano-cleansers (RC, p.35) completely defeat a chemsniffer (700nY per dose, 1 dose cleans max. 1m²). Cyberware scanners find it at threshold 2 though ... and they are dirt cheap and portable (except when i am the GM, because it screws non-awakened pretty hard)

The only RAW trick to stop cyberware-scanners is to spoof/hack the scanner.

[Tias]

my in-laws husband made a character for a new game yesterday the nearly brought a tear to my eye. Why? He used "Restricted Gear" to buy a monofilament garrotte! Probably the least powermongering way to use that quality ever.

Idea's sound, though. It'll cut through the entire neck before your target has time to register they're being grappled.

Other and non-lethal ideas abound, though. If sound is not an issue, load up on tazers and wear shock gloves - a bit of unarmed here and a solid tazer skill there, you should have people down. Gel rounds are less reliable, but work at range. I'd say the chance of your targets running to tell mother corp what's going on is unacceptable.

It can be a bit hard to get a solid capsule blend at character start up, but if you start out with good contacts, consider DMSO capsule rounds with Narcoject, Neuro-Stun or perhaps some mean blend of lael and knock-out drugs.

Depending on where your group stands on stick'n'shock, SMGs and up with electrical goodness is effective!

[Manunancy]

my in-laws husband made a character for a new game yesterday the nearly brought a tear to my eye. Why? He used "Restricted Gear" to buy a monofilament garrotte! Probably the least powermongering way to use that quality ever.

Idea's sound, though. It'll cut through the entire neck before your target has time to register they're being grappled.

Even if the kill is silent, it will leave beind a lot of blood on the scenery, possibly even the ceiling and probably on the wielder too. I's strongly recommend some sort of nanocleaners or the like to deal with resulting bloody mess.

[StealthSigma]

Weapon modifications say they can be applied to all types of weapons. That should include cyberweapons.

Cyber-implanted weapon with level three plasteel and ceramic components. That fools MAD detectors.

For optimal stealthiness, embed the cyberweapon in a cyberlimb rather than your flesh and blood in order to potentially fool a cyberware scanner.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

If you put it into a cyberlimb, you do not need the "MAD-Immune" stuff - bc. the cyberlimb will "beep" under a MAD scanner.

[nezumi]

Plstic Bone LAcing won't set off ANY kind od MAD (which stands for "Magnetic Anomaly Detector"). Physics, CanRay, trump pretty much everything. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Assuming the lacing is wholly plastic, without any sort of metal pins or buttresses. And assuming future MADs haven't been upgraded to detect alterations to human magnetic signatures, which would indicate circulatory anomalies and such.

[yesferatu]

I figured I'd specialize in silent, single-target extractions and sneaking into places.
Keep in mind, this is a new character - so there's a bit of a learning curve.
I won't have the body/strength to support unarmed combat, but I can quick draw and drop most corp targets- anywhere.
Poisons are a decent way to go. Nothing beats drugging drinks and injections.

I still need to research more corp infiltrators to see what people are using.
Thanks for the ideas so far.