Sneaky Weapons Options

[Lionhearted]

With the pitiful damage a holdout does you're better off with a fingertip compartment monowhip.

[_Pax._]

With the pitiful damage a holdout does you're better off with a fingertip compartment monowhip.

SnS does 6S(e) regardless of what fires it. I don't like that fact, but, there it is nonetheless.

Also, a capsule round delivers one dose of whatever drug/cocktail you put into it, also regardless of what fires it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

SnS does 6S(e) regardless of what fires it. I don't like that fact, but, there it is nonetheless.

Also, a capsule round delivers one dose of whatever drug/cocktail you put into it, also regardless of what fires it.

Except for Oxygenated Flouracarbons, which would be ridiculous (5L will not fit in a capsule, at least not one that you want to be shot with). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[_Pax._]

Except for Oxygenated Flouracarbons, which would be ridiculous (5L will not fit in a capsule, at least not one that you want to be shot with). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

.... Assault Cannon sized Capsule rounds, anyone? LOL!

[yesferatu]

5 rounds of Narcojet or Gamma Scopalomine should just about do the trick of the SnS doesn't.

I gotta say though, I am a little annoyed at the universality and badassery of Stick n' Shock.
I'll exploit the hell out of it, but it bypasses an awful lot of gun rules.

***Quick question on gel capsule rounds***
Do you need to penetrate the target's armor for them to work?
Do they need to inflict at least 1 point of damage to "inject" their toxin?
Is their damage basically negligible?
Can you use both contact and injection toxins in them?

[CanRay]

Physics, CanRay, trump pretty much everything. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I failed physics.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

5 rounds of Narcojet or Gamma Scopalomine should just about do the trick of the SnS doesn't.

I gotta say though, I am a little annoyed at the universality and badassery of Stick n' Shock.
I'll exploit the hell out of it, but it bypasses an awful lot of gun rules.

***Quick question on gel capsule rounds***
Do you need to penetrate the target's armor for them to work?
Do they need to inflict at least 1 point of damage to "inject" their toxin?
Is their damage basically negligible?
Can you use both contact and injection toxins in them?

I don't know, I hardly ever use SnS Rounds, except against Spirits, and not always then. *shrug*

We have always ruled (on capsule rounds) that you needed to sustain at least 1 box of actual damage (Stun is fine) for the round to work. *shrug*
The round inflicts Stun Damage by default, and is quite capable of dealing a LOT of stun damage as I often experience.
You need a DMSO + Any Vector Toxin (or a Contact Toxin) to deliver the toxin from a Capsue round, since they do not actually penetrate (Stun damage).

[Tias]

Even if the kill is silent, it will leave beind a lot of blood on the scenery, possibly even the ceiling and probably on the wielder too. I's strongly recommend some sort of nanocleaners or the like to deal with resulting bloody mess.

It probably bears mention that his character is made for a one-shot that takes place in Sarajevo and the surrounding patchwork of low-tech, war-torn micronations - where such considerations weigh less than the need for speed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[ZeroPoint]

Defiance Infiltrator
Base weapon: Defiance T-250 / Short barrel version
Mods: Powered folding stock (ruled this as replacing the built in stock so when folded down reduces concealabilty by one removes point of RC)
Barrel reduction (since it is a short barrel version which uses heavy pistol ranges, it doesn't actually already have barrel reduction mod so this can still apply)
easy breakdown
personalized grip
smartgun system
Sling
Ceramic/Plasteel components lvl3

Total Cost: 11,585

While being extremely expensive, you can get this gun just about anywhere. It easily breaks down into several component parts that are unrecognizable as any sort of weapon. And none of those parts are detectable by MAD scanners. On top of that, once you have it re-assembled, with stock retracted it has a concealabilty mod of 0. And all that cash will be worth it when you see the look on the face of a security guard when you put a SHOTGUN in his face AFTER going through a security checkpoint.

Add in a barrel accessory silencer for good measure.

[ZeroPoint]

Throwing knives with Ceramic/plastic mod.

If you have a good throwing skill and high strength, these can be fun at just (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 120 per knife

I'm also a fan of the Morissey Elan though. It works great, and if you have a high enough dice pool and can pick your engagement to make sure they don't have a chance to defend, even subsonic rounds can kill someone in one shot if your lucky.

4P + 4P from called shot, + 2~5 from net hits...if they are still alive, thats what the double tap is for. If not, move to the next target. I've dropped 3 guys in a pass with dual-wielded morissey elans with standard ammo before...

I think i burnt a point of edge but still, 2 net hits more than makes up for the difference between a hold out and a heavy pistol in damage. Getting the drop on an enemy so they can't defend at all also makes up for it by itself.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Defiance Infiltrator
Base weapon: Defiance T-250 / Short barrel version
Mods: Powered folding stock (ruled this as replacing the built in stock so when folded down reduces concealabilty by one removes point of RC)
Barrel reduction (since it is a short barrel version which uses heavy pistol ranges, it doesn't actually already have barrel reduction mod so this can still apply)
easy breakdown
personalized grip
smartgun system
Sling
Ceramic/Plasteel components lvl3

Total Cost: 11,585

While being extremely expensive, you can get this gun just about anywhere. It easily breaks down into several component parts that are unrecognizable as any sort of weapon. And none of those parts are detectable by MAD scanners. On top of that, once you have it re-assembled, with stock retracted it has a concealabilty mod of 0. And all that cash will be worth it when you see the look on the face of a security guard when you put a SHOTGUN in his face AFTER going through a security checkpoint.

Add in a barrel accessory silencer for good measure.

Yeah, you built an extremely expensive shotgun with heavy pistol ranges and heavy pistol damage here.
Why dont you just use a WW Infiltrator? Marginally greater range, same damage code, MAD immune (as it uses the same rules as the SA Puzzler), triple the ammo and 2200nY with built in Smartgun and having the same conceilability mod (+0) while assembled. 2700nY with built-in silencer and personalized grip, and still 2 mod slots free.

Both weapons are found by every chemsniffer of a decent rating (unless you use nano-cleansers).

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Also, i dont know what the fuss about MAD scanners is. It only detects metal, and everyone should have some metal stuff inside. A Rating 6 Cyberware Scanner costs 450nY, has an availability of 4R, works from triple the range and is better at finding stuff.

[_Pax._]

Also, i dont know what the fuss about MAD scanners is. It only detects metal, and everyone should have some metal stuff inside. A Rating 6 Cyberware Scanner costs 450nY, has an availability of 4R, works from triple the range and is better at finding stuff.

... and defies the laws of physics.

IRL, millimeter-wave scanners do not penetrate the skin. They don't have the energy to do so ... and if they did, they would cause burns and extreme discomfort (read: pain), plus cumulatively cause rampant skin cancers.

No technology that doesn't change the nature of the energy used, is going to "fix" that, either.

So all they could do, is detect surface-accessible things. And not even all of those, necessarily, either; those scanners are really not that difficult to fool.

...

Add tot hat, the fact that they make any effort to ever conceal anything, from anyone, completely pointless. A major component of the setting (concealed tools/augments/etc) trivialised by a cheap, readily available, hand-held device?

Bah!!

...

Hence why, in my games at least? There's no such animal.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

I know, but magic also defies the laws of physics. That does not change that fact that these things are RAW. For secure installations, you could also replace it with a long-term bound R6 Spirit of man w/ detect weapon and compel truth, which screws mundanes even more, because it cannot be hacked.

I changed them to avail Rating*4R, cost = Rating*Rating*500, Range: Walk-through and UWB-Radar only functions with half of its rating (round down) as a cyberware scanner.

[_Pax._]

Cyberware scanners are not magic. If they purport to be technology, they have to not thumb their noses at physics.

I do like the idea of walk-through setups - like the nifty thing from the old Total Recall, for example.

But handheld, "haha fuck you I detect everything" scanners, to which there is ZERO counter-measure? That breaks the setting and genre.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

If you apply common sense to shadowrun, everything falls down. Try making a sudden stop with a vehicle in a back alley as a REA3 skill1 person - or worse, with a stock car.

[_Pax._]

Yeah? Try doing it IRL, too.

And while I'm willing to make allowances that go with the story and genre ... I'm less willing to make allowances that actively work against it.

[X-Kalibur]

I failed physics.

So did a lot of the writers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I couldn't resist.

And since someone already mentioned it - fingertip compartment with monofilament whip (My shoelace is monofilament, you don't see me lopping off heads with it). Messy? Sure, but you can't argue effectiveness and you could realistically use it to garrote someone as well.

[Lionhearted]

Never seen the point of the mono garrote, why try and strangle someone with it when you could just run it through the throat?
or even better... get a monowhip and do it with reach.

[ZeroPoint]

Never seen the point of the mono garrote, why try and strangle someone with it when you could just run it through the throat?

That's exactly what you do with it.

[Lionhearted]

That's exactly what you do with it.

Mono garrote 18F reach 0, cannot be used outside of surprise.

Monowhip 12F reach 2, can very easily be used both to surprise and fight.

[ZeroPoint]

Yeah, you built an extremely expensive shotgun with heavy pistol ranges and heavy pistol damage here.
Why dont you just use a WW Infiltrator? Marginally greater range, same damage code, MAD immune (as it uses the same rules as the SA Puzzler), triple the ammo and 2200nY with built in Smartgun and having the same conceilability mod (+0) while assembled. 2700nY with built-in silencer and personalized grip, and still 2 mod slots free.

Both weapons are found by every chemsniffer of a decent rating (unless you use nano-cleansers).

That uses the longarms skill, can use shotgun only ammunition, and its still a shotgun...

I would not actually recommend using this for most characters. But if for example you wanted to play a character who focused on using shotguns, this would let you take a shotgun where you normally couldn't.

[ZeroPoint]

... and defies the laws of physics.

IRL, millimeter-wave scanners do not penetrate the skin. They don't have the energy to do so ... and if they did, they would cause burns and extreme discomfort (read: pain), plus cumulatively cause rampant skin cancers.

No technology that doesn't change the nature of the energy used, is going to "fix" that, either.

So all they could do, is detect surface-accessible things. And not even all of those, necessarily, either; those scanners are really not that difficult to fool.

...

Add tot hat, the fact that they make any effort to ever conceal anything, from anyone, completely pointless. A major component of the setting (concealed tools/augments/etc) trivialised by a cheap, readily available, hand-held device?

Bah!!

...

Hence why, in my games at least? There's no such animal.

Millimeter waves penetrate several millimeters below the skin's surface and are more easily blocked by water and metal (anything conductive really) and actually passes through wood, masonry, plastics, and ceramics (non-conductive materials) much more easily. While the depth wouldn't be enough to detect some cyberware, its more than enough to detect that someone would have cybereyes/ears, cyberlimbs, and possibly bone lacing but anything beyond that the body's water content would effectively block it. But ceramic and plastic weapons wouldn't be detected any easier (theoretically) with millimeter waves than a MAD scanner would.

Rador Sensor headware on the other hand, works as a combination of millimeterwaves and UWB radar, operating the two simultaneously to create a composite image I imagine. That would be woefully complex since the two would be returning such disparate information, but I could see how something like that MIGHT detect a weapon or deeply implanted cyberware...but i don't see it being too accurate and not very reliable. More likely to be able to tell you the general location of an object or implant, but not identify it.

In conclusion, I agree. This is something I've never really payed much attention to the fluff on how they work, and now that I've actually taken the time to look at these, there will probably be some changes in my game.

[ZeroPoint]

Also, has anyone actually looked at the rules for cyber scanners? the most dice a scanner can roll is 9, if you have 6+ items that you don't want it to detect on your person (including weapons and implants) If you are trying to sneak in a handgun, yeah your screwed. But you could get a Deltaware cyberspur (for 18k) and with a threshold of 4, as long as you don't have 6 of them, that scanner should never find it. If you want to go for broke and add the ceramic/plasteel components too then you can take it through metal detectors too. of course you will have to sell your soul

only way someone is finding it is if you pop it out.

or you could just tell anyone that you had a metal rod inserted after an accident if you don't feel like paying 108k for a cyberspur, and you can still walk through cyber scanners with impunity.

[_Pax._]

Zero ... I had an adept who would have problems with a Cyberware scanner.

Detectible augments: Cybereyes, Simsense booster, Datajack

Then add the milspec commlink in a skin pocket. And the yamaha pulsar taser. And, frankly, the somewhat-hard-to-explain Skinweb Array.


That's six things he doesn't want it advertised that he's got. (In fact, the commlink at least, usually stays inside his Skin Pocket bioware.) Poof, there's those 9 dice.