Canadian-Style Health Care, Is it in the UCAS? Options

[Tashiro]

Wound up discussing a bit of Canadiana, and wondered how it would apply in Shadowrun. Specifically, would Canadian health care have made it into the UCAS? I doubt it would apply in corporate territory, but outside of that, would the government-sponsored health care have survived the blending of Canada and the US?

Basically, in Canada (for those who don't know), taxes cover health care across Canada. As long as you have a SIN, you can go in, get treated, and not have to worry about extra hospital bills. There's a very few things not covered by health care (such as, for example, slings, and a few other accessories), but the hospital stay, the surgery, and the medicine supplied at the hospital are covered. Prescriptions are partially covered, which means that medication is cheaper than it would normally be. If you don't have a SIN, or you're not a Canadian citizen, you can go into a med centre, get treated, and any costs incurred are much lower than they would otherwise be. (For example, I had a friend visiting from the US, who wound up with the flu, and her visit to a walk-in clinic was about $30, which covered the visit and the medication provided by the prescription).

The thing is, I could still see this in Shadowrun for UCAS citizens. Basically, a SINner would have coverage for basic medicine and hospital stays. SINless might have some basic coverage, but would need to pay out-of-pocket. But I could also see corporate citizens having to pay possibly more. I'm uncertain.

[bannockburn]

Isn't that what DocWagon is for? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Dystopia doesn't allow for public health care (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[CanRay]

I think it's been mentioned that SINners do get health care, but the system is so underfunded and understaffed (and, worse, they get the low-end graduates as well!) that getting private health insurance (like Doc Wagon and CrashCart) is the only way to ensure you get the basic needs met, especially in emergency situations.

So, yeah, lip service is given to "Universal Health Care", but in reality it doesn't happen. Which, frankly, makes it even more dystopic in my mind.

[Tashiro]

I think it's been mentioned that SINners do get health care, but the system is so underfunded and understaffed (and, worse, they get the low-end graduates as well!) that getting private health insurance (like Doc Wagon and CrashCart) is the only way to ensure you get the basic needs met, especially in emergency situations.

So, yeah, lip service is given to "Universal Health Care", but in reality it doesn't happen. Which, frankly, makes it even more dystopic in my mind.

This, I can understand. Thanks for the clarity. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And yeah, I can agree this is more dystopic to some extent. It's there, but it's bleah.

[Smirnov]

Weren't healthcare and other liberal stupidities brought into UCAS by Canada the reason that made Southern States secede?

[Tashiro]

Weren't healthcare and other liberal stupidities brought into UCAS by Canada the reason that made Southern States secede?

Snrk. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Nice one.

[X-Kalibur]

I think it's been mentioned that SINners do get health care, but the system is so underfunded and understaffed (and, worse, they get the low-end graduates as well!) that getting private health insurance (like Doc Wagon and CrashCart) is the only way to ensure you get the basic needs met, especially in emergency situations.

So, yeah, lip service is given to "Universal Health Care", but in reality it doesn't happen. Which, frankly, makes it even more dystopic in my mind.

Much like in real life.

[CanRay]

Much like in real life.

Depends on where you are.

One of the reasons I moved to Winnipeg was the 20+ year waiting period for a family doctor back home. It's 30+ years now.

[hermit]

The UCAS' healthcare system is a slightly more darwinist version of the US' (at least for all I know, refusing immediate life-saving measures is illegal in the US, such as treating gunshot wounds). In NAGRL, it is mentioned that healthcare providers have the right to let uninsured (SINless) people bleed to death in their lobby and refuse treatment entirely. Additionally, public health is massively underfunded, corrupt and more often than not deals in organs on the side.

So ...

The thing is, I could still see this in Shadowrun for UCAS citizens. Basically, a SINner would have coverage for basic medicine and hospital stays.

I could see that too - if the sIN was a corp SIN. That would make corp citizenship that much more appealing.

[Tashiro]

Actually, I'd be more inclined to see less of it with Corp SIN, and see more of it with UCAS SINs. Health Care was covered by the government, out of a portion of every citizen's taxes - there's nothing stopping this from still being the case. I see this as a two-tier system (which some people in Canada these days want), where if you have the money, you can pay to get better, faster treatment, but if you can't, you get just what's covered by Health Care.

This brings up another question - what would happen if the UCAS revoked extraterritoriality. They gave it, they could in theory take it away...

[All4BigGuns]

This brings up another question - what would happen if the UCAS revoked extraterritoriality. They gave it, they could in theory take it away...

Pandora's Box is harder to close than it is to open.

[hermit]

Actually, I'd be more inclined to see less of it with Corp SIN, and see more of it with UCAS SINs. Health Care was covered by the government, out of a portion of every citizen's taxes - there's nothing stopping this from still being the case.

Of course there is. Economically, the UCAS is the USA as Paul Ryan would like to see it - the public sector has been gutted and left to rot in a hell uf underfinancing and neglect for several decades. It's actually even less well funded, with the armed forces having been gutted similarily. I'm afraid Canada's healthcare system has been all but eliminated - though I can well see Ares owning brand name rights to Medicare, Medicaid and such, using them to evoke old-timey feels for their own in-corp healthcare plans.

I see this as a two-tier system (which some people in Canada these days want), where if you have the money, you can pay to get better, faster treatment, but if you can't, you get just what's covered by Health Care.

Sort of, with the default for the public being "nothing much".

[X-Kalibur]

Depends on where you are.

One of the reasons I moved to Winnipeg was the 20+ year waiting period for a family doctor back home. It's 30+ years now.

You know who else had Universal healthcare that didn't work? ... I'm mostly just poking fun although it is a true statement (yes, the answer is Hitler). That isn't to say that private healthcare works any better, it's totally corrupt because there is no real competition. This is why your insurance pays ridiculous amounts of money for services but if you don't have insurance and get the...ahem... cash discount... you pay something like 20% of that cost. Actually, shit, I think that just made it even more dystopian.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

This brings up another question - what would happen if the UCAS revoked extraterritoriality. They gave it, they could in theory take it away...

Sure, this is like UK and India. UK gave India "extraterritoriality". Now, if they try to take that away ... remember, some of the Megas even have Nukes and Aircraft Carriers. And Dragons.

[Shortstraw]

"Sir we need reinforcements Lofwyr is beating our men to death with an ICBM!"

[pbangarth]

You know who else had Universal healthcare that didn't work? ... I'm mostly just poking fun although it is a true statement (yes, the answer is Hitler).

Wow. In the discussion by post #13. So... universal healthcare can be both socialist and fascist at the same time. You're good.

Canray's example nothwithstanding, "didn't work" is stretching things quite a bit. Nevertheless, I don't see the radical resistance to anything that smacks of social support for the needy making any headway in a US dominated UCAS as a whole, but since health care is a Provincial responsibility in Canada, the State of Ontario for example could very well keep universal healthcare going there.

[hermit]

Wow. In the discussion by post #13. So... universal healthcare can be both socialist and fascist at the same time. You're good.

Be kind. I doubt he even understands understand what the words he's using mean.

Nevertheless, I don't see the radical resistance to anything that smacks of social support for the needy making any headway in a US dominated UCAS as a whole, but since health care is a Provincial responsibility in Canada, the State of Ontario for example could very well keep universal healthcare going there.

I could see that, but fluff in the setting says otherwise. According to the fluff, the UCAS is a very Reaganesque state, that also severely cut back on the armed forces (something Americans, authors and fans alike, often don't seem to grasp - the UCAS is not the USA, it's France, at best, militarily). Shadowrun IS a child of the 80s, after all.

[Sengir]

This brings up another question - what would happen if the UCAS revoked extraterritoriality. They gave it, they could in theory take it away...

Sure, and England could declare the Treaty of Paris (not the one abut the Vietnam War) void. The question is how they would enforce it, and who in all possible hells would be stupid enough to do so?

PS: And healthcare? In my dystopia? The UCAS can't even police their turf...

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Which one? There are tons of them ^^
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Paris

[hermit]

Maybe you should limit yourself to the treaties still in effect. That narrows things down considerably. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[X-Kalibur]

Wow. In the discussion by post #13. So... universal healthcare can be both socialist and fascist at the same time. You're good.

Canray's example nothwithstanding, "didn't work" is stretching things quite a bit. Nevertheless, I don't see the radical resistance to anything that smacks of social support for the needy making any headway in a US dominated UCAS as a whole, but since health care is a Provincial responsibility in Canada, the State of Ontario for example could very well keep universal healthcare going there.

You might want to look into your history a little. In Germany and Austria they had set up universal health care that worked for a short while but before the war even started people were waiting months to a year for required surgeries and the like and electives were SOL. It wasn't literally Hitler that enacted it, but it was the NAZI party. So yes, I think universal health care is both socialist and fascist and that private insurance is the only way to go (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) You might have noticed I deride but systems...

[bannockburn]

So, you don't use highways as well? Can we please stop invoking Godwin now? The man is still alive and all this spinning makes him nauseous.

[Halinn]

So yes, I think universal health care is both socialist and fascist and that private insurance is the only way to go (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) You might have noticed I deride but systems...

It's a wonder that us poor, poor Scandinavian countries haven't gone bankrupt yet. Our healthcare costs are actually lower than yours.

[pbangarth]

So yes, I think universal health care is both socialist and fascist and that private insurance is the only way to go (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) You might have noticed I deride but systems...

The game fluff accurately describes the net effect of privatizing essential services. It creates an 'under-culture' for which those services don't exist at all. A cohesive society that en mass joins another political entity, and which maintains political control of essential services within its own boundaries (as Ontario becoming a UCAS state would do) would strongly mitigate towards keeping those essential services. People used to having a system that serves a few poorly may very well choose to retain it rather than adopt a system that serves the poor not at all.

And given that the one reference I can find to Ontario as a state in the UCAS points out that it survived the Crash as "the most livable and prosperous state in the UCAS" (Conspiracy Theories, p. 156), I would argue that Ontario in the UCAS has kept universal health care and is wealthy enough to pay for it being functional.

[Sengir]

It wasn't literally Hitler that enacted it, but it was the NAZI party.

The Nazis were in power in the 1880s? And Bismarck was one of them? Looks like a lot of people have to look up their histories, since these facts so far seem to have escaped historians...