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Tashiro
Wound up discussing a bit of Canadiana, and wondered how it would apply in Shadowrun. Specifically, would Canadian health care have made it into the UCAS? I doubt it would apply in corporate territory, but outside of that, would the government-sponsored health care have survived the blending of Canada and the US?

Basically, in Canada (for those who don't know), taxes cover health care across Canada. As long as you have a SIN, you can go in, get treated, and not have to worry about extra hospital bills. There's a very few things not covered by health care (such as, for example, slings, and a few other accessories), but the hospital stay, the surgery, and the medicine supplied at the hospital are covered. Prescriptions are partially covered, which means that medication is cheaper than it would normally be. If you don't have a SIN, or you're not a Canadian citizen, you can go into a med centre, get treated, and any costs incurred are much lower than they would otherwise be. (For example, I had a friend visiting from the US, who wound up with the flu, and her visit to a walk-in clinic was about $30, which covered the visit and the medication provided by the prescription).

The thing is, I could still see this in Shadowrun for UCAS citizens. Basically, a SINner would have coverage for basic medicine and hospital stays. SINless might have some basic coverage, but would need to pay out-of-pocket. But I could also see corporate citizens having to pay possibly more. I'm uncertain.
bannockburn
Isn't that what DocWagon is for? wink.gif
Dystopia doesn't allow for public health care biggrin.gif
CanRay
I think it's been mentioned that SINners do get health care, but the system is so underfunded and understaffed (and, worse, they get the low-end graduates as well!) that getting private health insurance (like Doc Wagon and CrashCart) is the only way to ensure you get the basic needs met, especially in emergency situations.

So, yeah, lip service is given to "Universal Health Care", but in reality it doesn't happen. Which, frankly, makes it even more dystopic in my mind.
Tashiro
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jan 16 2013, 02:04 PM) *
I think it's been mentioned that SINners do get health care, but the system is so underfunded and understaffed (and, worse, they get the low-end graduates as well!) that getting private health insurance (like Doc Wagon and CrashCart) is the only way to ensure you get the basic needs met, especially in emergency situations.

So, yeah, lip service is given to "Universal Health Care", but in reality it doesn't happen. Which, frankly, makes it even more dystopic in my mind.


This, I can understand. Thanks for the clarity. smile.gif And yeah, I can agree this is more dystopic to some extent. It's there, but it's bleah.
Smirnov
Weren't healthcare and other liberal stupidities brought into UCAS by Canada the reason that made Southern States secede?
Tashiro
QUOTE (Smirnov @ Jan 16 2013, 04:20 PM) *
Weren't healthcare and other liberal stupidities brought into UCAS by Canada the reason that made Southern States secede?


Snrk. biggrin.gif Nice one.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jan 16 2013, 11:04 AM) *
I think it's been mentioned that SINners do get health care, but the system is so underfunded and understaffed (and, worse, they get the low-end graduates as well!) that getting private health insurance (like Doc Wagon and CrashCart) is the only way to ensure you get the basic needs met, especially in emergency situations.

So, yeah, lip service is given to "Universal Health Care", but in reality it doesn't happen. Which, frankly, makes it even more dystopic in my mind.


Much like in real life.
CanRay
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Jan 16 2013, 05:29 PM) *
Much like in real life.
Depends on where you are.

One of the reasons I moved to Winnipeg was the 20+ year waiting period for a family doctor back home. It's 30+ years now.
hermit
The UCAS' healthcare system is a slightly more darwinist version of the US' (at least for all I know, refusing immediate life-saving measures is illegal in the US, such as treating gunshot wounds). In NAGRL, it is mentioned that healthcare providers have the right to let uninsured (SINless) people bleed to death in their lobby and refuse treatment entirely. Additionally, public health is massively underfunded, corrupt and more often than not deals in organs on the side.

So ...
QUOTE
The thing is, I could still see this in Shadowrun for UCAS citizens. Basically, a SINner would have coverage for basic medicine and hospital stays.

I could see that too - if the sIN was a corp SIN. That would make corp citizenship that much more appealing.
Tashiro
Actually, I'd be more inclined to see less of it with Corp SIN, and see more of it with UCAS SINs. Health Care was covered by the government, out of a portion of every citizen's taxes - there's nothing stopping this from still being the case. I see this as a two-tier system (which some people in Canada these days want), where if you have the money, you can pay to get better, faster treatment, but if you can't, you get just what's covered by Health Care.

This brings up another question - what would happen if the UCAS revoked extraterritoriality. They gave it, they could in theory take it away...
All4BigGuns
QUOTE (Tashiro @ Jan 16 2013, 11:47 PM) *
This brings up another question - what would happen if the UCAS revoked extraterritoriality. They gave it, they could in theory take it away...


Pandora's Box is harder to close than it is to open.
hermit
QUOTE
Actually, I'd be more inclined to see less of it with Corp SIN, and see more of it with UCAS SINs. Health Care was covered by the government, out of a portion of every citizen's taxes - there's nothing stopping this from still being the case.

Of course there is. Economically, the UCAS is the USA as Paul Ryan would like to see it - the public sector has been gutted and left to rot in a hell uf underfinancing and neglect for several decades. It's actually even less well funded, with the armed forces having been gutted similarily. I'm afraid Canada's healthcare system has been all but eliminated - though I can well see Ares owning brand name rights to Medicare, Medicaid and such, using them to evoke old-timey feels for their own in-corp healthcare plans.

QUOTE
I see this as a two-tier system (which some people in Canada these days want), where if you have the money, you can pay to get better, faster treatment, but if you can't, you get just what's covered by Health Care.

Sort of, with the default for the public being "nothing much".
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jan 16 2013, 07:53 PM) *
Depends on where you are.

One of the reasons I moved to Winnipeg was the 20+ year waiting period for a family doctor back home. It's 30+ years now.


You know who else had Universal healthcare that didn't work? ... I'm mostly just poking fun although it is a true statement (yes, the answer is Hitler). That isn't to say that private healthcare works any better, it's totally corrupt because there is no real competition. This is why your insurance pays ridiculous amounts of money for services but if you don't have insurance and get the...ahem... cash discount... you pay something like 20% of that cost. Actually, shit, I think that just made it even more dystopian.
NiL_FisK_Urd
QUOTE (Tashiro @ Jan 17 2013, 06:47 AM) *
This brings up another question - what would happen if the UCAS revoked extraterritoriality. They gave it, they could in theory take it away...

Sure, this is like UK and India. UK gave India "extraterritoriality". Now, if they try to take that away ... remember, some of the Megas even have Nukes and Aircraft Carriers. And Dragons.
Shortstraw
"Sir we need reinforcements Lofwyr is beating our men to death with an ICBM!"
pbangarth
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Jan 17 2013, 02:37 AM) *
You know who else had Universal healthcare that didn't work? ... I'm mostly just poking fun although it is a true statement (yes, the answer is Hitler).

Wow. In the discussion by post #13. So... universal healthcare can be both socialist and fascist at the same time. You're good.

Canray's example nothwithstanding, "didn't work" is stretching things quite a bit. Nevertheless, I don't see the radical resistance to anything that smacks of social support for the needy making any headway in a US dominated UCAS as a whole, but since health care is a Provincial responsibility in Canada, the State of Ontario for example could very well keep universal healthcare going there.
hermit
QUOTE
Wow. In the discussion by post #13. So... universal healthcare can be both socialist and fascist at the same time. You're good.

Be kind. I doubt he even understands understand what the words he's using mean.

QUOTE
Nevertheless, I don't see the radical resistance to anything that smacks of social support for the needy making any headway in a US dominated UCAS as a whole, but since health care is a Provincial responsibility in Canada, the State of Ontario for example could very well keep universal healthcare going there.

I could see that, but fluff in the setting says otherwise. According to the fluff, the UCAS is a very Reaganesque state, that also severely cut back on the armed forces (something Americans, authors and fans alike, often don't seem to grasp - the UCAS is not the USA, it's France, at best, militarily). Shadowrun IS a child of the 80s, after all.
Sengir
QUOTE (Tashiro @ Jan 17 2013, 06:47 AM) *
This brings up another question - what would happen if the UCAS revoked extraterritoriality. They gave it, they could in theory take it away...

Sure, and England could declare the Treaty of Paris (not the one abut the Vietnam War) void. The question is how they would enforce it, and who in all possible hells would be stupid enough to do so?

PS: And healthcare? In my dystopia? The UCAS can't even police their turf...
NiL_FisK_Urd
Which one? There are tons of them ^^
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Paris
hermit
Maybe you should limit yourself to the treaties still in effect. That narrows things down considerably. wink.gif
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jan 17 2013, 01:32 AM) *
Wow. In the discussion by post #13. So... universal healthcare can be both socialist and fascist at the same time. You're good.

Canray's example nothwithstanding, "didn't work" is stretching things quite a bit. Nevertheless, I don't see the radical resistance to anything that smacks of social support for the needy making any headway in a US dominated UCAS as a whole, but since health care is a Provincial responsibility in Canada, the State of Ontario for example could very well keep universal healthcare going there.


You might want to look into your history a little. In Germany and Austria they had set up universal health care that worked for a short while but before the war even started people were waiting months to a year for required surgeries and the like and electives were SOL. It wasn't literally Hitler that enacted it, but it was the NAZI party. So yes, I think universal health care is both socialist and fascist and that private insurance is the only way to go wobble.gif You might have noticed I deride but systems...
bannockburn
So, you don't use highways as well? Can we please stop invoking Godwin now? The man is still alive and all this spinning makes him nauseous.
Halinn
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Jan 17 2013, 05:28 PM) *
So yes, I think universal health care is both socialist and fascist and that private insurance is the only way to go wobble.gif You might have noticed I deride but systems...

It's a wonder that us poor, poor Scandinavian countries haven't gone bankrupt yet. Our healthcare costs are actually lower than yours.
pbangarth
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Jan 17 2013, 11:28 AM) *
So yes, I think universal health care is both socialist and fascist and that private insurance is the only way to go wobble.gif You might have noticed I deride but systems...

The game fluff accurately describes the net effect of privatizing essential services. It creates an 'under-culture' for which those services don't exist at all. A cohesive society that en mass joins another political entity, and which maintains political control of essential services within its own boundaries (as Ontario becoming a UCAS state would do) would strongly mitigate towards keeping those essential services. People used to having a system that serves a few poorly may very well choose to retain it rather than adopt a system that serves the poor not at all.

And given that the one reference I can find to Ontario as a state in the UCAS points out that it survived the Crash as "the most livable and prosperous state in the UCAS" (Conspiracy Theories, p. 156), I would argue that Ontario in the UCAS has kept universal health care and is wealthy enough to pay for it being functional.

Sengir
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Jan 17 2013, 05:28 PM) *
It wasn't literally Hitler that enacted it, but it was the NAZI party.

The Nazis were in power in the 1880s? And Bismarck was one of them? Looks like a lot of people have to look up their histories, since these facts so far seem to have escaped historians...
hermit
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Jan 17 2013, 05:28 PM) *
You might want to look into your history a little. In Germany and Austria they had set up universal health care that worked for a short while but before the war even started people were waiting months to a year for required surgeries and the like and electives were SOL. It wasn't literally Hitler that enacted it, but it was the NAZI party. So yes, I think universal health care is both socialist and fascist and that private insurance is the only way to go wobble.gif You might have noticed I deride but systems...

You should have noticed that posting derisively in a political way is against terms of conduct here, and considered baiting. Reported.

QUOTE
The game fluff accurately describes the net effect of privatizing essential services. It creates an 'under-culture' for which those services don't exist at all. A cohesive society that en mass joins another political entity, and which maintains political control of essential services within its own boundaries (as Ontario becoming a UCAS state would do) would strongly mitigate towards keeping those essential services. People used to having a system that serves a few poorly may very well choose to retain it rather than adopt a system that serves the poor not at all.

And given that the one reference I can find to Ontario as a state in the UCAS points out that it survived the Crash as "the most livable and prosperous state in the UCAS" (Conspiracy Theories, p. 156), I would argue that Ontario in the UCAS has kept universal health care and is wealthy enough to pay for it being functional.

It is also mentioned in Dirty Tricks, though the healthcare system of the UCAS in egneral is not discussed in that writeup. I have yet to thoroughly read Montreal 2074 to see if it has more info on Ontario, since it's a border town.
NiL_FisK_Urd
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jan 17 2013, 10:32 AM) *
So... universal healthcare can be both socialist and fascist at the same time.

NSDAP (aka the Nazis) = National Socialist German Workers' Party
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (hermit @ Jan 17 2013, 09:32 AM) *
You should have noticed that posting derisively in a political way is against terms of conduct here, and considered baiting. Reported.


Man, nobody can take a joke these days. Already dropped, give the indigence a rest.
CanRay
Back to health care... ERs full of emergency cases, GSWs, knife wounds, and, of course, the sniffles and not getting treated sounds pretty dystopian to me.

Hell, the descriptions I've given for Shadow Clinics has been pretty bad, too. THOSE I've also described as outright Reaganomicsesque (with the exception of Black Cross, the Neo-@narchist Shadow Clinics) with the group getting to the front of the line by bribing the nurse outright.

"How much to..." "OH GOD!!!" *Troll runs to the bathroom barely making it in time* "Get our troll buddy here admitted next." "100." "IT BURNS!!! I CAN FEEL CTHULHU TRYING TO COME INTO THE WORLD THROUGH MY HOOP!!!" "Please pay quickly!"
hermit
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Jan 17 2013, 08:07 PM) *
Man, nobody can take a joke these days. Already dropped, give the indigence a rest.

You cannot drop the baiting, can you.

QUOTE
NSDAP (aka the Nazis) = National Socialist German Workers' Party

Just stop posting about things you do apparently not understand.
Sengir
QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Jan 17 2013, 07:38 PM) *
NSDAP (aka the Nazis) = National Socialist German Workers' Party

You realize that the Nazis (as well as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea and anybody else) were not magically compelled to assign truthful names? Independently of any actual positions they had, your argument "they named it x, so it has to be x" is bollocks.
Halinn
Their early agenda was socialist, but Hitler steered them much more towards the nationalistic side, as well as a very very high degree of statism.
Shortstraw
Nobody wins if this continues.
CanRay
How did we go from Canada to Godwins?
Smirnov
Apparently public healthcare is Hitler's plan to destroy the world. Only proves CAS founders to be right %)
hermit
Look, people, can we please agree that everyone keeps their politics to themselves, or do you want the flamestorm that WILL erupt when I and others don't keep back anymore?

@CanRay: I'll just *sigh*
DireRadiant
Remember politics is against the ToS unless it is specifically related to Shadowrun.

And mentioning Nazis kills threads too.

Keep it shadowrun specific please. No smart Nazis in shadowrun comments either.
Warlordtheft
I would suspect that the UCAS adopted some of the Canadian Healthcare system, but at some point most of those emergency services were subcontracted out to Doc Wagon/Crashcart. Inside the megacorps, I would think healthcare is provided. But in that case, the higher the position/salary the better healthcare you get. In the end it works like this for docwagon when getting to a mass casualty event:

1. Platinum Contracts
2. Gold Contracts
3. Standard Contract
4. Non-Contractor with Sins and Nuyen
5. Non-contractos with sins and no nuyen
6. Sinless (to be wisked away to their free clinic) and umm parts is parts...... cyber.gif

UCAS probably still requires Doc Wagon them to take care of a person with a sin, but delays and buracratic hassel mean that it may take a few months.




CanRay
There are still Government Run hospitals, Seattle General in Seattle 2072 is an example. It didn't get COMPLETELY outsourced, but some municipalities/states might have done that individually.
pbangarth
Am I wrong in thinking that health care in the current US, which is the template for the UCAS, is very much a state responsibility? Didn't whats-his-name, Romney, take flak for having done in his state as governor what he decried in Obama's plan? ( I guess Obama's plan was to influence states to do something? I don't know.)

The SR element in this is that if state control is present in the template, then Ontario would have the legislative power under the UCAS to run health care as it pleased.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jan 18 2013, 08:44 PM) *
Am I wrong in thinking that health care in the current US, which is the template for the UCAS, is very much a state responsibility? Didn't whats-his-name, Romney, take flak for having done in his state as governor what he decried in Obama's plan? ( I guess Obama's plan was to influence states to do something? I don't know.)

The SR element in this is that if state control is present in the template, then Ontario would have the legislative power under the UCAS to run health care as it pleased.


If you actually read into it, the Paul Ryan Medicare plan and the oft reviled "obamacare" are only 2% different. Politicians are all two-faced.
CanRay
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Jan 20 2013, 11:31 PM) *
If you actually read into it, the Paul Ryan Medicare plan and the oft reviled "obamacare" are only 2% different. Politicians are all two-faced.
Especially Harvey Dent!
X-Kalibur
He was a District Attorney, which is slightly different. Although they do have to keep up public appearances to some extent.
CanRay
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Jan 21 2013, 12:11 AM) *
He was a District Attorney, which is slightly different. Although they do have to keep up public appearances to some extent.
They're elected in the US, aren't they?

Thus: Politician.
hermit
Lots of officials in the US are elected; judges, sherriffs, district attourneys ... unless I'm wrong there?
pbangarth
QUOTE (hermit @ Jan 21 2013, 03:30 PM) *
Lots of officials in the US are elected; judges, sherriffs, district attourneys ... unless I'm wrong there?

And therefore politically motivated?
hermit
QUOTE
And therefore politically motivated?

Of course.
CanRay
And thus Harvey Dent is the best politician ever.

He freely admits he's Two-Face. nyahnyah.gif
hermit
The perfect bi-partisan.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (hermit @ Jan 22 2013, 11:02 AM) *
The perfect bi-partisan.


Except he filps positions too much.
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