Speed as a function of skill, Has it been done? Options

[Arethusa]

Obviously, SR's system, at present, doesn't really allow for skill to affect the speed at which one can do things, and there's no way this is realistic. A person with pistols 8 will still shoot as slowly as someone defaulting from quickness. Have there been any house rules that allow SR to realistically reflect the fact that skill generally makes you a hell of a lot faster? Have there been any systems in other games that do a good job of reflecting this without getting overly complicated?

[Lilt]

Hmm. Possibly allow someone to declare what they will be doing for the next round (in a 1-er) and allow them to add their skill to their initiative total?

[blakkie]

Skill level (well actually number of successes) does affect the time it takes for many prolonged tasks. Examples include B/R, Permanent spells, etc. But at a phase level i can't really think of anything outside of Quickness test for Quick Drawing.

[Arethusa]

Then you run into problems if skill is greater than or equal to 10.

[edit]

And, yes, I'm aware it's reflected in the time it takes to do something like pop a maglock. But it breaks down quickly outside of specific examples, and absolutely is not touched upon in combat.

[nezumi]

That's an interesting point, especially considering just about every other sort of skill does allow for increased speed.

Extra successes in Biotech, Electronics and the like can decrease the amount of time it takes.
Extra successes in Melee combat simulate getting in extra shots.
You can pair up magical spells to fire off both at the same time with a higher TN.

Looks like ranged weapons is the only real exception to this rule.

[blakkie]

[Arethusa]

Akimbo weapons may double your rate of fire, but there's still not difference between firing two pistols with a skill of 8 and firing two pistols defaulting from quickness.

[blakkie]

[Lilt]

[Berzerker]

Its not so much that increased skill lets you fire faster. The time involved in combat fire is more about how fast you are able to react to whats going on around you. Someone who is great with a pistol but doesnt have the greatest reflexes will not be able to fire as often as someone who is mediore but has the twitch reflex of a cup of coffee. The better pistol skill will hit a better percentage of the time, but the man with the move by wire will be a blur as he throws up bullets.

[Erebus]

IMHO, I think the increased speed you are refering to is the dual effect of training a skill (pistols in this example) and Reaction(or quickness) at the same time.

:)

Thats how I would explain it.

[Berzerker]

Also, assuming that you're firing at a single target, the only increase in difficulty is uncompensated recoil. That makes me assume that you're still only firing as fast as you can assuming your still devoting enough time to make sure you're on target.

Maybe allow someone to take dice from their pistol skill to add to their reaction for attacks to simulate not quite taking as much time to aim when you're in a hurry?

[A Clockwork Lime]

An average character with Pistols 3 can shoot at a target with a +0 modifier in approximately 1.5 seconds. It takes closer to 6 to 7.5 for someone without Pistols 3, defaulting to Quickness 3, to do the exact same shot (via aiming to reduce their penalties). So yes, it does take longer. But if you don't want to take the time, just pull the trigger and deal with the fact that your shot is going to suck compared to the other guy.

But if you want a Combat Training type skill or something, that lets you handle the pressure of heavy combat more easily than others, I guess you could do some weird Complimentary Skill check with Reaction. I wouldn't do it nor recommend it. The system works just fine as it stands in that area as far as I'm concerned.

Skill represents how good you are and how many dice you have to throw to get around any situational modifiers (the more dice, the greater your chance). That's more than enough to simulate it in my book. The guy with Pistols 6 is going to take down more opponents more quickly than the guy with Pistols 1, all other things being equal.

[TheScamp]

How about just adding to the target number for each additional target, just like in melee combat (taking up a complex action in the process)?

So, if I want to use my pistol to shoot at 3 different targets as a Complex action, it's normal for the first, +2 for the second, +4 for the third, etc. These penalties wouldn't be able to be mitigated in any way.

[Arethusa]

[Berzerker]

The guy in those videos is very good and very fast. Does being very good alone make you very fast? Thats up for debate. You can be very well trained but your hand only moves as fast as the nerve inpulses tell it to (which is reaction if I'm not mistaken). Short of showing that guys stats somewhere :D those alone cant make a case.

[Arethusa]

Well, I can vouch for the fact that he's not cybered and not under the effects of an enhance reaction spell. That leaves you with skill, as I'm relatively sure that if you gave him a maglock to pop, he wouldn't do it nearly as quickly.

[Berzerker]

But he could be the first one to the maglock ;)

[Austere Emancipa...]

My house rule as it currently stands:
As a Complex Action, may fire a firearm in SA mode a number of times equal to 2 + (Skill/2, round down), maximum is 6. At 8, you can empty a revolver in a single Complex Action. That's fast enough for me, even though I know you can shoot most weapons far quicker than that and still be accurate IRL.

[Shadow]

[Arethusa]

If I can fire three semi auto shots in a single action, why would I ever use burst, which essentially dramatically lowers my potential for dealing damage (not to mention gives me much lower target numbers)?

[edit]

Shadow, to my knowledge, those aren't sped up and have been vouched for in other places. He really does shoot like that. There's a reason he's done so damn well in shooting competitions.

Yes, pistols have a cyclic rate. Would you happen to know what that is? Many are in the 1600 to 1800 rpm range. Two rounds in three seconds does not begin to approach this. Moreover, your complaint is absolutely absurd, given that a mundane would somehow break his gun if he tried to fire faster than 2 rounds per 3 seconds while a total cyborg has no trouble unleashing 8 SA shots in 3 seconds, much less firing the canon 10 rounds per complex action 4 or 5 times over in a single turn.

And I really must say, I find some vague amusement in being flamed for munchkinism.

[Shadow]

Well it wasn't a flame. It just seems to me that wanting to shoot more in a combat turn because you have a high quickness is a little munchy. And according to quick time those videos are running at 28FPS. Real time is 30FPS. That means it has been sped up. It gives the appearance of being faster than it actually is. I am not saying the man isn't fast, I am just saying he isn't as fast as he appears to be in the video.

Also you have to remember, he is on a range. He is doing something he practices probably everyday. Shooting targets that aren't moving while he isn't moving. Again, I am not saying he isn't good, but it is a lot harder when people are moving, and shooting at you.

[Arethusa]

Who told you that realtime happens at 30fps? Framerate is wholly independant of what's actually going on and only is representative of the rate it's being played back. If the framerate of the video is higher than what it was recorded at, then something has been changed. But there no absolutely set standard.

And, yes, of course a range is much easier then combat, but I'm still willing to bet that a soldier who's been trained will pop off accurate semi auto shots a lot faster than me, and that's not an issue of reaction enhancement.

Anyway, it's not munchkinism. I'm just interested in reflecting a real world dynamic that the system wholly overlooks. I think, were I at all munchkinism inclined, I wouldn't've minded Lilt's suggestion that allowed me to warp time and space with my Pistols 11.

[Erebus]

[Arethusa]

That may be true, but skill is still only a measure of hit probability and in no way affects speed. A person with Pistol 9 remains stuck at loosing two rounds every 3 seconds unless he rips out his his central nervous system and replaces it with something faster.