Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Speed as a function of skill
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
Arethusa
Obviously, SR's system, at present, doesn't really allow for skill to affect the speed at which one can do things, and there's no way this is realistic. A person with pistols 8 will still shoot as slowly as someone defaulting from quickness. Have there been any house rules that allow SR to realistically reflect the fact that skill generally makes you a hell of a lot faster? Have there been any systems in other games that do a good job of reflecting this without getting overly complicated?
Lilt
Hmm. Possibly allow someone to declare what they will be doing for the next round (in a 1-er) and allow them to add their skill to their initiative total?
blakkie
Skill level (well actually number of successes) does affect the time it takes for many prolonged tasks. Examples include B/R, Permanent spells, etc. But at a phase level i can't really think of anything outside of Quickness test for Quick Drawing.
Arethusa
Then you run into problems if skill is greater than or equal to 10.

[edit]

And, yes, I'm aware it's reflected in the time it takes to do something like pop a maglock. But it breaks down quickly outside of specific examples, and absolutely is not touched upon in combat.
nezumi
That's an interesting point, especially considering just about every other sort of skill does allow for increased speed.

Extra successes in Biotech, Electronics and the like can decrease the amount of time it takes.
Extra successes in Melee combat simulate getting in extra shots.
You can pair up magical spells to fire off both at the same time with a higher TN.

Looks like ranged weapons is the only real exception to this rule.
blakkie
QUOTE (nezumi)
....
Looks like ranged weapons is the only real exception to this rule.

Unless you want to count dualwielding pistols, x-bows, shotguns, et.al. for a higher TN. wink.gif
Arethusa
Akimbo weapons may double your rate of fire, but there's still not difference between firing two pistols with a skill of 8 and firing two pistols defaulting from quickness.
blakkie
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Akimbo weapons may double your rate of fire, but there's still not difference between firing two pistols with a skill of 8 and firing two pistols defaulting from quickness.

Yes there is, you hit worth crap. So you might as well not bother. It is a 'simulation' in that basically if you try to get more done you actually get less done.
Lilt
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Then you run into problems if skill is greater than or equal to 10.

How so? You're just really, really, dammn fast.
Berzerker
Its not so much that increased skill lets you fire faster. The time involved in combat fire is more about how fast you are able to react to whats going on around you. Someone who is great with a pistol but doesnt have the greatest reflexes will not be able to fire as often as someone who is mediore but has the twitch reflex of a cup of coffee. The better pistol skill will hit a better percentage of the time, but the man with the move by wire will be a blur as he throws up bullets.
Erebus
IMHO, I think the increased speed you are refering to is the dual effect of training a skill (pistols in this example) and Reaction(or quickness) at the same time.

smile.gif

Thats how I would explain it.



Berzerker
Also, assuming that you're firing at a single target, the only increase in difficulty is uncompensated recoil. That makes me assume that you're still only firing as fast as you can assuming your still devoting enough time to make sure you're on target.

Maybe allow someone to take dice from their pistol skill to add to their reaction for attacks to simulate not quite taking as much time to aim when you're in a hurry?
A Clockwork Lime
An average character with Pistols 3 can shoot at a target with a +0 modifier in approximately 1.5 seconds. It takes closer to 6 to 7.5 for someone without Pistols 3, defaulting to Quickness 3, to do the exact same shot (via aiming to reduce their penalties). So yes, it does take longer. But if you don't want to take the time, just pull the trigger and deal with the fact that your shot is going to suck compared to the other guy.

But if you want a Combat Training type skill or something, that lets you handle the pressure of heavy combat more easily than others, I guess you could do some weird Complimentary Skill check with Reaction. I wouldn't do it nor recommend it. The system works just fine as it stands in that area as far as I'm concerned.

Skill represents how good you are and how many dice you have to throw to get around any situational modifiers (the more dice, the greater your chance). That's more than enough to simulate it in my book. The guy with Pistols 6 is going to take down more opponents more quickly than the guy with Pistols 1, all other things being equal.
TheScamp
How about just adding to the target number for each additional target, just like in melee combat (taking up a complex action in the process)?

So, if I want to use my pistol to shoot at 3 different targets as a Complex action, it's normal for the first, +2 for the second, +4 for the third, etc. These penalties wouldn't be able to be mitigated in any way.
Arethusa
QUOTE (Lilt)
How so? You're just really, really, dammn fast.

Actually, you're infinitely fast. At 10, you will never run out of initiative until you run out of ammo, at which point you will reload, which is still a function of weapon skill. Until you're out of magazines, you will never slow down. And if you go above 10, you effectively get faster and warp time with every phase spent shooting. You may be good, but you shouldn't be that good.

QUOTE (Berzerker)
Its not so much that increased skill lets you fire faster. The time involved in combat fire is more about how fast you are able to react to whats going on around you. Someone who is great with a pistol but doesnt have the greatest reflexes will not be able to fire as often as someone who is mediore but has the twitch reflex of a cup of coffee. The better pistol skill will hit a better percentage of the time, but the man with the move by wire will be a blur as he throws up bullets.

And I would like to disprove you with this and this.

QUOTE (Erebus)
IMHO, I think the increased speed you are refering to is the dual effect of training a skill (pistols in this example) and Reaction(or quickness) at the same time.

Unfortunately, this isn't the case. A completely uncybered mundane with extremely high skill is just as slow as the same mundane with no skill. Skill has no impact on initiative or speed in general.

[edit]

QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime)
An average character with Pistols 3 can shoot at a target with a +0 modifier in approximately 1.5 seconds. It takes closer to 6 to 7.5 for someone without Pistols 3, defaulting to Quickness 3, to do the exact same shot (via aiming to reduce their penalties). So yes, it does take longer. But if you don't want to take the time, just pull the trigger and deal with the fact that your shot is going to suck compared to the other guy.

Unfortunately, there is then no difference in speed between pistols 3 and pistols 8, which is part of the problem. I may be able to shoot really, really accurately, but I'm no faster, and that is not right.

QUOTE (TheScamp)
So, if I want to use my pistol to shoot at 3 different targets as a Complex action, it's normal for the first, +2 for the second, +4 for the third, etc. These penalties wouldn't be able to be mitigated in any way.

Might as well just use the full auto penalties for switching targets, if you're going to do that. Unfortunately, this both doesn't go far enough and has severe potential for abuse. I could be wrong, though.
Berzerker
The guy in those videos is very good and very fast. Does being very good alone make you very fast? Thats up for debate. You can be very well trained but your hand only moves as fast as the nerve inpulses tell it to (which is reaction if I'm not mistaken). Short of showing that guys stats somewhere biggrin.gif those alone cant make a case.
Arethusa
Well, I can vouch for the fact that he's not cybered and not under the effects of an enhance reaction spell. That leaves you with skill, as I'm relatively sure that if you gave him a maglock to pop, he wouldn't do it nearly as quickly.
Berzerker
But he could be the first one to the maglock wink.gif
Austere Emancipator
My house rule as it currently stands:
As a Complex Action, may fire a firearm in SA mode a number of times equal to 2 + (Skill/2, round down), maximum is 6. At 8, you can empty a revolver in a single Complex Action. That's fast enough for me, even though I know you can shoot most weapons far quicker than that and still be accurate IRL.
Shadow
QUOTE (Arethusa @ Apr 22 2004, 12:53 PM)

And I would like to disprove you with this and this.

Before you show a tv commercial as evidence, you should make sure the video isn't sped up. Like it is in your 'evidence'.

First of all, like all weapons pistols have a cyclic rate. They can only fire so fast no matter how fast you are or how quick you respond. Three seconds does not equal three bullets.

You cannot shoot a pistol faster no matter how good you are. You can be the worlds most skilled marksman and you will not be able to shoot a pistol 'faster'. Sure you can change targets, and hit really long shots better, but not any faster. What do you want to do in your three seconds? Shoot 4 times? Can't do it. The pistol can't do it.

Hopefully Raygun will jump in here and give you technical reasons as to why a pistol can only fire so fast. And to be honest with you your complaint smacks of munchkinism.
Arethusa
If I can fire three semi auto shots in a single action, why would I ever use burst, which essentially dramatically lowers my potential for dealing damage (not to mention gives me much lower target numbers)?

[edit]

Shadow, to my knowledge, those aren't sped up and have been vouched for in other places. He really does shoot like that. There's a reason he's done so damn well in shooting competitions.

Yes, pistols have a cyclic rate. Would you happen to know what that is? Many are in the 1600 to 1800 rpm range. Two rounds in three seconds does not begin to approach this. Moreover, your complaint is absolutely absurd, given that a mundane would somehow break his gun if he tried to fire faster than 2 rounds per 3 seconds while a total cyborg has no trouble unleashing 8 SA shots in 3 seconds, much less firing the canon 10 rounds per complex action 4 or 5 times over in a single turn.

And I really must say, I find some vague amusement in being flamed for munchkinism.
Shadow
Well it wasn't a flame. It just seems to me that wanting to shoot more in a combat turn because you have a high quickness is a little munchy. And according to quick time those videos are running at 28FPS. Real time is 30FPS. That means it has been sped up. It gives the appearance of being faster than it actually is. I am not saying the man isn't fast, I am just saying he isn't as fast as he appears to be in the video.

Also you have to remember, he is on a range. He is doing something he practices probably everyday. Shooting targets that aren't moving while he isn't moving. Again, I am not saying he isn't good, but it is a lot harder when people are moving, and shooting at you.

Arethusa
Who told you that realtime happens at 30fps? Framerate is wholly independant of what's actually going on and only is representative of the rate it's being played back. If the framerate of the video is higher than what it was recorded at, then something has been changed. But there no absolutely set standard.

And, yes, of course a range is much easier then combat, but I'm still willing to bet that a soldier who's been trained will pop off accurate semi auto shots a lot faster than me, and that's not an issue of reaction enhancement.

Anyway, it's not munchkinism. I'm just interested in reflecting a real world dynamic that the system wholly overlooks. I think, were I at all munchkinism inclined, I wouldn't've minded Lilt's suggestion that allowed me to warp time and space with my Pistols 11.
Erebus
QUOTE (Arethusa @ Apr 22 2004, 08:53 PM)
QUOTE (Erebus)
IMHO, I think the increased speed you are refering to is the dual effect of training a skill (pistols in this example) and Reaction(or quickness) at the same time.

Unfortunately, this isn't the case. A completely uncybered mundane with extremely high skill is just as slow as the same mundane with no skill. Skill has no impact on initiative or speed in general.


Not entirely true. The person who is unskilled is probably taking a few aim actions to ensure he can get reasonable close to his target (or just fires blindly), where as a skilled person can fire as fast as his pistol and reflexes allow without the need of taking extra time to aim.

It takes *almost* no skill to point a gun down range, and rapidly pull the trigger. The skill comes in by hitting the target. Thus reaction determines how often you can fire, while skill determines how often you hit.

Arethusa
That may be true, but skill is still only a measure of hit probability and in no way affects speed. A person with Pistol 9 remains stuck at loosing two rounds every 3 seconds unless he rips out his his central nervous system and replaces it with something faster.
Erebus
2 rounds on some turns, 4 on another... by my calculations.. smile.gif And 4 rounds a turn while having a chance to hit the target is definetly governed by both skill and reaction.


Arethusa
True. Still, four rounds in 3 seconds is very little when IPSC shooters reliably reach slow SMG rates of fire. I'm not saying that this is combat effective, but SR doesn't allow for this to be modeled at any level, which is the problem.
blakkie
QUOTE (Arethusa @ Apr 22 2004, 09:41 PM)
That may be true, but skill is still only a measure of hit probability and in no way affects speed.  A person with Pistol 9 remains stuck at loosing two rounds every 3 seconds unless he rips out his his central nervous system and replaces it with something faster.

Exactly. You are stuck at moving as fast as humanly possible until you get rid of a bit of that humanity. wink.gif

P.S. If, and that is a big, huge, drooling "if", if i was to house rule allowing extra shoots (such as 3 SA shots) per [edit]phase[/edit] i'd have the TN modifier apply to ALL shots taken in the phase, along with any recoil modifiers as appropriate. I'd then tack on extra target penalties where appropriate.
Eyeless Blond
If you want to move faster in combat, take the Small Unit Tactics skill and use it on yourself. If you want to shoot pistols more accurately, take the Pistols skill. Don't expect the Pistols skill to make you react faster in combat, and don't expect the SUT skill to make you any better at shooting pistols.
Erebus
As an alternative... to cover this situation with Extra training... Make it a special "Pistol Manuaver" that needs to be purchased with Karma.

I've seen pistol manuavers somewhere on the web, it may have been under the Gun Kata thread from awhile ago.

Arethusa
QUOTE (blakkie)
Exactly. You are stuck at moving as fast as humanly possible until you get rid of a bit of that humanity.

Though that's an inherent dynamic in the Shadowrun system, I guess you can sum up the issue as 2-4 rounds in 3 seconds not being anywhere near the human cieling.

QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
If you want to move faster in combat, take the Small Unit Tactics skill and use it on yourself. If you want to shoot pistols more accurately, take the Pistols skill. Don't expect the Pistols skill to make you react faster in combat, and don't expect the SUT skill to make you any better at shooting pistols.

Unfortunately, Small Unit Tactics has nothing to do with whether or not I shoot faster. Not here in reality, anyway.

QUOTE (Erebus)
I've seen pistol manuavers somewhere on the web, it may have been under the Gun Kata thread from awhile ago.

I'm not really comfortable with maneuvers for gun skills, and though I suppose a sanely realistic set of them could be assembled for ranged weapons, what you're referring to has more to do with Equilibrium, which consequently (and self acknowledgedly) had nothing to do with reality.
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (Arethusa @ Apr 22 2004, 05:12 PM)
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
If you want to move faster in combat, take the Small Unit Tactics skill and use it on yourself. If you want to shoot pistols more accurately, take the Pistols skill. Don't expect the Pistols skill to make you react faster in combat, and don't expect the SUT skill to make you any better at shooting pistols.

Unfortunately, Small Unit Tactics has nothing to do with whether or not I shoot faster. Not here in reality, anyway.

Sure about that, huh? Don't want to look over the rules for initiative, specifically the rules for multiple initiative passes in one Combat Turn, before you put your foot in your mouth? smile.gif

Also note that in the description of SUT you don't even need to use an action to get the initiative bonus yourself; that's for when you want to communicate your analysis (and the bonus) to everyone else.

Of course, the description doesn't give a TN for giving yourself an init increase, so I'd just rule that it's either an automatic success or against a TN of 2.
Austere Emancipator
Good thing that the idea that a pistol's cyclic RoF would limit this somehow was blown away.

For those of you who think a non-enhanced human simply cannot fire a smallarm that fast: How do you explain this?
QUOTE
[...] world shooting record of eight shots on one target in 1.00 seconds.
[...] two shots each on four targets for a total of eight shots. Despite the need to move the revolver from target to target, the elapsed time from the first to last shot was a mere 1.06 seconds.
[...]  fire six shots, reload, and fire six more shots on a single target in 2.99 seconds.

First two with a .357 Magnum revolver without any significant Recoil Compensation, the last with a .45 ACP revolver. You can see from the picture on that page how small the groups are, and you can see the distance and firing stance on this page.

This has been debated on the forum before, and I've never seen anything to make me consider changing that particular house rule I mentioned before.
blakkie
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
For those of you who think a non-enhanced human simply cannot fire a smallarm that fast: How do you explain this?

Magic levels are rising faster than predicted. Now if you'll excuse me i'm off to buy up as many superstion trinkets as possible before their foci abilities become apparent....
Arethusa
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
QUOTE (Arethusa @ Apr 22 2004, 05:12 PM)
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
If you want to move faster in combat, take the Small Unit Tactics skill and use it on yourself. If you want to shoot pistols more accurately, take the Pistols skill. Don't expect the Pistols skill to make you react faster in combat, and don't expect the SUT skill to make you any better at shooting pistols.

Unfortunately, Small Unit Tactics has nothing to do with whether or not I shoot faster. Not here in reality, anyway.

Sure about that, huh? Don't want to look over the rules for initiative, specifically the rules for multiple initiative passes in one Combat Turn, before you put your foot in your mouth? smile.gif

Also note that in the description of SUT you don't even need to use an action to get the initiative bonus yourself; that's for when you want to communicate your analysis (and the bonus) to everyone else.

Of course, the description doesn't give a TN for giving yourself an init increase, so I'd just rule that it's either an automatic success or against a TN of 2.

I'm saying that my ability to tactically position and direct a small unit has nothing to do with how fast I shoot a gun. In SR, the rules for SUT make no fucking sense, really, and take the game to a bizarre level of abstraction that few rules in the system support.
Shadow
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Who told you that realtime happens at 30fps?

It's called knowledge. When you use a camera to film, it films at 29.9 FPS. If you slow the camera down and film at less, the action will speed up. If you speed the camera up and film at more the action will appear to slow down.

I am not going to debate my knowledge versus your knowledge. Those clips are sped up [period]. You can chose to believe it or not, it doesn't change the fact that they are. Sheesh.

I love how no one can know anything on these boards, yet everyone can know everything at the same time.

I am sure you can pull up cameras and film where 30FPS isn't real time. But standard cameras using standard film, including digital cameras that are an industry standard follow this rule. (Gee, I wonder how he can know what an industry standard is. Perhaps he is involved in some sort of filming industry?)

Like I said, it doesn't mean the guys isn't good, it just means that he isn't as good as he appears to be.

And by the way, your quickness does help you shoot faster. Your reaction determines your initiative, which determines how many times you can go per round. So again, wanting to go more above and beyond what you already get to do smacks of munchkinism.

How many times have we seen the quickness 14 character?
Nikoli
The shooter described would seem to me a real world example of someone approaching physical adept. He has honed his reflexes to do this, through practice, meditation and force of will.
Austere Emancipator
You can stop with the whole sped-up vs not-sped-up debate over the video clips, when I provided information about extremely fast shooting that is about as well documented and proven as can be with these things. Several hundred spectators, professional timetakers and all.

QUOTE (Shadow)
So again, wanting to go more above and beyond what you already get to do smacks of munchkinism.

I have a problem with calling anything that's realistic "munchkinism". If a RL weapon can fire 1200rpm even when a really slow guy is firing it, I do not consider it "munchkinism" to allow a low-init guy to fire 60 rounds in a single Combat Turn of fully automatic fire.

And if in RL someone (unwired, unenhanced, mundane and certainly not the greatest athlete in the world) can fire a revolver accurately 8 times in 1 second, I do not consider it "munchkinism" to allow a really skilled, unwired, unenhanced, mundane and not-incredibly-quick fire one 6 times in 3 seconds.
Austere Emancipator
Nikoli: Uhh, doesn't really work out that well. It's (almost) random who gets Awakened in SR. A mundane guy cannot through "practice, meditation and force of will" get himself Improved Reflexes-3. And I'm pretty sure the guy in question would laugh his ass off at that comparison. smile.gif
Hasaku
You might say he's used karma to enhance his stats, specifically quickness.
Req
I doubt that dude can run much faster than the average dude. Just leave it at "the rules don't perfectly reflect reality, but they're fun" and house-rule it or not, as you desire.
Arethusa
Shadow: what about cameras filming at 24 fps? What about 35 fps? 100 fps? Unfortuantely, there are variable speeds for variable uses, and you have no idea whether it was filmed at 28 fps or not. Let it go. It's already been conclusively documented that incredibly fast shooting is possible in other places.

Nikoli: unfortunately, while I very much like the idea of allowing mental conditioning, force of will, etc to influence the game, SR just doesn't roll with that, and instead holds with a lot of very dehumanizing dynamics. Besides, as Austere points out, a mundane can't just become awakened because he tries very hard. Which is a shame, but ah well.

Hasaku: quickness wouldn't begin to compensate for this per canon mechanics. As best, I can hope for reliably shooting four rounds in three seconds.

Req: the rules, of course, will never perfectly reflect reality. My issue here is that a very significant dynamic isn't relfected at all, and as I state at the beginning of the thread, I'm curious if there are systems or mechanics that do.
BitBasher
Video cameras in NCST film at 29.97 FPS, PAL is at exactly 30 and theatrical movies are at 24. The rate varies.
Entropy Kid
QUOTE
Video cameras in NCST film at 29.97 FPS, PAL is at exactly 30 and theatrical movies are at 24. The rate varies.
I believe PAL is around 24. I know you're right about NTSC though. To make things even more complicated: if when the video was edited, it was rendered at a lower frame rate it still wouldn't be sped up if it played at that frame rate although it'd look choppy and generally ugly.

Others have made house rules for semi-auto rate of fire. AE mentioned one and there's another here, I don't know if Raygun has any rules for it. When trying to house rule this myself, I originally had it based on Quickness. I liked Quickness since it was the body's ability to move. Thinking about it now, perhaps skill should weigh in more than Quickness. I haven't decided.
Arethusa
Ok, came up with a way to handle this talking with a friend of mine. Personally, I think it really could work.

The number of shots you can loose on semi auto (firearm ROF cap still applies) or number of times you can bull the trigger to burst in one single action is equal to 1/2 weapon skill, rounded down. For each single action, your weapon skill functions as a pool that will not refresh until the next single action. This allows you to dump all of your weapon skill into a single good shot or split it up into various smaller, less well aimed shots.

Alternatively, you can word it as 2x weapon skill as pool, refreshing each combat phase, with a maximum of weapon skill per shot. Neither of us could really decide on which was more complicated.

For bursts, this essentially works the same way, though ROF cap really comes into play here. Combat pool functions and refreshes just the same as always.

[edit]

Though it needs clarifying for dual weapons, simple enough to say that it applies individually to each hand with all penalties that that would naturally cause.
Entropy Kid
My opinion: I don't like adding dice pools. I'd rather a rule to increase semi-auto rof was based of the exitsting mechanics.

Edit: i can't read.
Siege
Or suffer -1 die penalty per additional shot beyond the normal allocation.

That credits skill directly as opposed to tacking on recoil penalties.

-Siege
Arethusa
Why is that necessary? You already suffer a significant dice penalty if you decide to split it up. An additional -1 is really going too far.

Unless you were thinking of -1 per shot past the first instead of using skill as a pool?
A Clockwork Lime
How about something like this? I still think it's a little lame, but...


Rapid Fire
Combat Option: Complex Action

When using a firearm in SA mode, or a single-action SS weapon such as a revolver (and requiring both hands), a character can choose to sacrifice accuracy for speed. The character may shoot their weapon at up to (Ranged Combat Skill -2) targets as a single Complex Action, though each target after the first suffers a cumulative +2 target number modifier. Targeting bonuses, aiming and Called Shots are not available when using Rapid Fire.

If firing all the shots at a single target, treat the Rapid Fire as an Full Burst shot with a number of rounds equal to the number of shots the character fires. The TN modifier for the shot is equal to the final TN of all the shots. Example: Rapid Firing 4 shots into a target is treated as a 4-round burst with a TN modifier of +6.


Blazing Gunbunny
Cost: 5-Point Edge per Level.

Characters with this edge are more adept at using the Rapid Fire action in combat. Reduce the target number modifier for multiple targets to +0 for each additional target equal to the level of this edge. For example, a character with Blazing Gunbunny 2 can hit a total of 3 targets per Complex Action without suffering any target number modifier. If he were to shoot at 4 or more targets, the cumulative +2 TN modifier would begin after the 3rd target.


Smartlink Component: Rapid Fire Augmentation
Cost: 2,500 nuyen and 0.2 Essence

This component to a Smartlink System requires the Smartlink-2 Ballistics Processor. When installed and used with a fully cybernetic system, the user gains a -1 target number modifier when using the Rapid Fire option.
Siege
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Why is that necessary? You already suffer a significant dice penalty if you decide to split it up. An additional -1 is really going too far.

Unless you were thinking of -1 per shot past the first instead of using skill as a pool?

Yes, the second -- sorry for not being more clear.

Example: Jack has Handgun 6.

He takes his first two shots with normal penalties at the full 6 dice. He opts to overdrive his weapon, sacrificing a cumulative -1 die per additional shot with the standard +1 cumulative recoil penalty.

3rd shot, +2 recoil, 5 dice
4th shot, +3 recoil, 4 dice
5th shot, +4 recoil, 3 dice
6th shot, +5 recoil, 2 dice

Just some idle thoughts -- although this doesn't allow for the varying degrees of recoil for different weapon types. But to incorporate that level of detail, you have to create a fairly complicated ruleset for a relatively minor point.

-Siege
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012