Some of us (*wink nudge hint*) think all weapons should have a recoil cap.

It starts at +4 for all weapons. Weapons with the standard Recoil Modifier of +1 (anything other than Heavy Weapons and Shotguns in canon SR) add +3 to that, weapons with a RecMod of +2 add +6, etc. And it actually works out so that the (Recoil Modified x 3) is added at Long/Extreme, not just +3.

Assault rifles, SMGs, LMGs, MMGs: +7, +10 at Long/Extreme
Battle Rifles, HMGs, Autoshotguns: +10, +16 at Long/Extreme

There is no differentiation based on weapon class, because the inclusion of the Recoil Modifier already does that. More specifically, it's because I do not really differentiate weapons based on any weapon class.

I've fired a 9mm pistol plenty of times, but not very rapidly. My personal experience is that I could not fire the Browning High-Power Mk2 accurately faster than about 2 shots in 3 seconds. However, I was at best at Pistol-2, so it works out.

While this seems simple enough, I really do like the idea of recoil caps being modified by weapon class. I'm not sure if this is realistic, however.

As a side note, assuming recoil caps were worked into the game, think vertical foregrips lowering max recoil by 1 or two and also lowering max actions allowed for aiming (by the same amount; probably 1 on both sides) would be accurate?

I don't really see why. If the use of Recoil Modifier in the calculation already takes care of the differences between the recoil levels of different kinds of firearms, what other reasons for modifying the caps by class are there? Maybe I'm not getting what you're saying.

No comment on vertical foregrips, I've never used them. If I've got a comment, it'll have to wait a while.

I really don't like this. It does nothing to allow extremely skilled people to fire more than 2 or 4 times in 3 seconds, as they should be able to, and it just slows everyone else down. Worse, I really dislike having the penalty stay there until it magically disappears at skill 5.

I'm not really clear on what you're doing at range, but it makes sense at 30m. I do like the fact that it opens up the possibility of weapon mods that lower cap instead of just providing comp. I'm not sure why you apply double recoil on the first burst, however.

I guess I'll have to wait for the take of someone who's fired one; mainly, given my lack of experience, I just don't want to create unnecessarily complicated mechanics with no basis in reality. As for +2, might be a bit light; +3'd probably be more blanced.

Please note that throughout this entire thread, normal mundanes have been the focus. Hell, I went on to say it in the very next sentance.

The problem with this is that the game is simply not set up to handle it, and, at that point, you're not adding small rules or even revising large set of rules; you're rewriting the entire core of the game. Not to mention that mundanes and cybered would be at that much more a disadvantage against magic.

Personally, I much preferred the weapon skill pool per action approach. Dropping it to 1 second would sort of be nice, but creates a lot of other problems.

Well, so far all I think Arethusa is doing is trying to increase shots, not actions, and using skill to limit the number available.

Well, in melee combat one gets a chance to attack everyone in range using only one Complex Action (keeping track of capitals this time), so there is something this can be compared to. I know that melee combat is abstracted differently, but it's a similar situation: one Action, multiple "hits".

I agree with allowing more than one shot per Simple Action, but don't think more than one target can be fired at (sorta canon). Using a Complex Action would allow multiple targets, just like standard Full Auto rules. That's my take on it anyway. I'm curious how the number of "extra" shots would be determined and recoil factored in.

I'd completely forgotten about that somehow. Good call. Although: if not using canon FA shot limits, what's the maximum rate of fire for a double action handgun?

I think the Oni handgun came out to about 10 per second or 10 per 3 seconds.

And Sahandrian's autofire rules for normal weapons work like this:

With FA weapons (except with pistols under my rules), you can fire at least 15 shots from a weapon per turn. Recoil is a total of +15 every 15 rounds, or possibly +15 per 30 with HVAR. +15 points recoil comp means recoil-less weapon. Miniguns have default fire rate of 350 rounds per turn or so. And HVAR...Well, you've heard Metal Storm's claims of easily into the 5-digit range, I'm sure. But seriously...He argues that for weapons without a canon RPM listed, the default should be 15 rounds per turn max. I argue 30 rounds per turn. Most automatic firearms have rates of at least 600 RPM, with the exception of the Steyr TMP, which can only get up to 550 RPM max.

I know this is far from empirical, but ...

I was reading the CZ forums linked in a different thread (gun ownership?), and noticed one uy talkin about how in match shooting he and his friend were gettin g3 rounds off, with good accuracy in the neighborhood of 2 seconds. I think that's a good indicator that people with high skill can be accurate AND fast.

Now, granted, that's not a combat situation. What's the length of an SR combat round? I imagine that taking an extra shot from a pistol or whatever should be doable. Heck, I read once (and liked the idea of) a house rule letting one fire as many as one liked, with simply escalating recoil.

That DOES tend to make onethink, what's the point of burst / FA fire then??

That's why I liked the idea of capping the shots at something related to skill -- no more shots than , say, 1+half the skill, or something. Thouh, that means a starting character could fire a single pistol at +0, 1, 2, 3, in one round; (1+6/2=4 shots) That might be pretty out of whack with what an SMG can do, I admit ...

[edit]Perhaps disallowing aiming-tool bonuses (and not allowing with scoped use) like SL or laser aiming module would help discourage this ...[/edit]


Course they could do the same with burst fire too... but the recoil would be obscene, and effectively like FA: (assuming an SMG with RC 3) -- +0, +3, +6, +9 -- basically, may as well just do normal burst fire.

What if they wanted to use dual pistols? ouch. Since uncompensated recoil is appliedto both, you'd have ... (+2,+2), (+4,+4), (+6,+6)... yeah that's pretty much right out (even with high ambidex, I imagine...).

I dunno... does this make pistols more powerful? yes. Too powerful? Maybe. Different balance. That said, I know that in many FPSes (and in tactical pistol training courses) they say, "keep shooting until the target goes down" -- and I KNOW that at short ranges, I'd be unloading a pistol. Probably a minimum of 3 rounds into a target. I don't think that's represented well by SR's system of 1 shot per simple action. I wouldn't mind seeing more lethal pistols. I mean, if you can do it, so can that Max-Power-holdin security guard.

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BTW, this is not what i'm arguing - I am pretty certain that any average person, if they were motivated, could point a SA handgun at some target (say, Mallory Malcontent, the guy who wants to kill me), and pull the trigger as many times as adrenaline and interest implies.

Just miming trigger pulls, I am pretty sure that I could empty a 1911 (7 rounds) in the general direction of a hostile target in about THREE seconds. And that's being conservative, I imagine, and not being a total spaz.

Now, these would not be well-aimed shots, of course ... and is represented by the fact that my recoil would be escalating. hell, with 4 dice, I don't think that I would be able to HIT anything well with many of those. The +4, +5, and +6 to hit with the last few rounds mean that they are intended almost as suppressive fire.

I imagine that I, with maybe pistols 3 (after a bit of practice, that's believable i think), would not be expecting to hit much with that clipfull - almost hopin for a lucky single success, you might say. A Trained pistol fighter, though -- say skill 5 or 6, could probably expect to hit a TN of 8 or 9 even with only 5-6 dice.

Remembering that movement modifiers (mine and target's) both contribute to this, the REAL tn to hit would probably be in 8's-12's _anyways_. So probably not all that bad to let them throw more lead out.

Maybe i'll jsut go read the rules on suppressive fire.

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