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[yesferatu]

Hey guys,

I'm researching some negative qualities and I'm trying to figure out how I'll eventually get rid of them.
I understand how you would buy off an addiction or skill limit or something, what about stuff like debt?

If you took the Debt negative quality and eventually paid it back (in cash) - do you still need to spend the karma to get rid of it?
What about Enemies - if you kill them...do you need to buy the quality off in karma too?
What about like Hung Out to dry? Do you actually need to buy that off - or do you just need to make new contacts?

I couldn't figure out why you'd need to basically pay double to get rid of those.
I'm still not sure.

[Lionhearted]

Short answer, yes you must always buy it off with karma first.
Think of it as a karmic debt looming over you.
The debt is paid but the bad blood is still there until you pay it off with karma, they will hassle you because you still owe them... In their eyes.
Enemies have a tendency to not quite be as dead as you thought, or have successors take in their foot steps. You spend karma to close that chapter of your life.
With hung out dry, you need to first figure out what happened, mend the damage... Until you do, people will have a bad vibe around you... They might know of your past, they may not... either way there's something not right about you...

You pay double because otherwise people would just rack up negatives like that and get them off karma free.

[All4BigGuns]

Hey guys,

I'm researching some negative qualities and I'm trying to figure out how I'll eventually get rid of them.
I understand how you would buy off an addiction or skill limit or something, what about stuff like debt?

If you took the Debt negative quality and eventually paid it back (in cash) - do you still need to spend the karma to get rid of it?
What about Enemies - if you kill them...do you need to buy the quality off in karma too?
What about like Hung Out to dry? Do you actually need to buy that off - or do you just need to make new contacts?

I couldn't figure out why you'd need to basically pay double to get rid of those.
I'm still not sure.

There are those who argue both sides, some who say that dealing with the situation is enough, and some that insist on karma expenditure. It is a VERY contentious issue that has spawned many, many, MANY heated arguments and sometimes has led to locked threads, warnings and temporary bans.

[yesferatu]

Yup.
Sadly, the Core isn't that clear.
With debt, for example, it costs more than you get in cash.
I'm not sure how I feel about paying that off twice.

[All4BigGuns]

Yeah, I tend to avoid them myself because of how contentious the issue is. If I were running and someone took them, I'm not sure how I would actually rule it, but I guess I'll find out if someone ever does. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[O'Ryan]

This is a tough one!

Debt I wouldn't have made them pay off with karma before this thread, but now... I would. Probably.*
Enemies will use Hand of God to stay alive and keep recurring. (RC 132). So... if you want to stop seeing them, I'd require karma spent.
Hung out to Dry is the most cut and dry "pay for it!" in my mind. If you take at chargen there's almost zero penalty because of how easy it is to make new contacts. If it's gained during play, you need to resolve the issue.

*I would now charge karma to get rid of debt because like Lion said, you may still owe them in their eyes. Be the debt from the mafia or a big bank, they're going to try to screw you out of every last nickel and dime they can until they think the karmic balance is repaid. The change in my opinion comes from it being the only quality I can think of that wouldn't require karma, and if you start giving a quality special treatment it'll get uppity.

[All4BigGuns]

I will admit that I'm leaning toward not making people spend the karma, but mainly because of how the ones who insist on it act in the arguments on the issue.

[Mantis]

In my games I just have you pay back the karma you gained for the quality in addition to doing something (pay off debt, kill off or make peace with enemy, etc) to get rid of the quality. Some negative qualities are never allowed to be removed as there doesn't seem to be any logical way to get rid of them (scorched for example). So role play getting rid of the quality and then pay your karma bonus off and have done with it.

[Shortstraw]

Actually with in debt your debt has 10% compound interest every month. So once your principle is paid off you only have to pay your loan shark nothing every month so why would you waste the karma to get rid of it? Just leave it sad and ignored on your sheet.

[All4BigGuns]

Actually with in debt your debt has 10% compound interest every month. So once your principle is paid off you only have to pay your loan shark nothing every month so why would you waste the karma to get rid of it? Just leave it sad and ignored on your sheet.

People have tried that one, and the ones that insist on the karma expenditure most vehemently say that they would continue charging the full amount until that karma is paid, or rather have the people the debt was owed to expecting it to continue being paid.

[_Pax._]

Actually with in debt your debt has 10% compound interest every month. So once your principle is paid off you only have to pay your loan shark nothing every month so why would you waste the karma to get rid of it? Just leave it sad and ignored on your sheet.

Because the general idea of In Debt is, you borrowed it from an organised crime syndicate. That immediately calls two things to mind:

On the one hand? They may not let you pay down the principle; they would much, much rather you remain a source of continuing income.

On the other hand? "Hey, now, Shortstraw. We done you a favor once, now you needs to do US a favor. Or we might get ... unhappy, wit' youse. So how's dat daughter a' yours doing, anyway, wit hr shiny new legit ID an' in dat private school an' all? Be a real shame if somethin' happened to her or her new friends, now, wouldn't it?" (and having written that, I SERIOUSLY hope you don't REALLY have a daughter, regardless of age ...)

[All4BigGuns]

Like I said earlier in the thread though, main reason I am considering ruling by the "no karma spent" way is because of the most vocal about paying the karma and how big of buttheads they have been about it in other discussions on the matter.

[_Pax._]

... petulant whiny brat, much?

Seriously, that's about the worst reason I can imagine for someone making any kind of ruling in an RPG.

[All4BigGuns]

... petulant whiny brat, much?

Seriously, that's about the worst reason I can imagine for someone making any kind of ruling in an RPG.

It's called that some of them have been so bad about insulting anyone who doesn't want to rule it that way, that it's convinced me to do things exactly the opposite of what they're saying. The way they act on the issue hurt their cause that much in my eyes.

[Glyph]

By RAW, you both have to take the necessary steps (surgery to fix eyes, paying off debt, putting your dependent into a nursing home, etc.), then pay the karma.

There's nothing wrong with letting players get rid of flaws solely with roleplaying, or spending money, or taking certain actions in game, if that's how you want to run it. But if you do go that way, be consistent. Don't let someone quit their day job or pay off their debt with no karma, but then insist on karma expenditures if someone wants to mellow out and drop their vindictive quality, or get some cosmetic biomods to change their distinctive hair coloration from SURGE.

[All4BigGuns]

I think the 'be consistent' falls under the category of being quite obviously the way to go.

[toturi]

Removing the In Debt negative quality requires karma.

Paying off the principle reduces the amount of debt owed, but the negative quality remains.

In this manner, the Ts are crossed and Is are dotted and the rules are entirely consistent.

[CanRay]

In Debt can mean to a company (like a bank) or (more likely) to organized/disorganized crime in some sort.

This means that either there is a paperwork mishap at the company, and you still owe interest on the amount you borrowed, or despite the fact that you payed the debt and interest the guys with the hammers trying to take your kneecaps off insist you still owe them. The Karma smooths through the rough fringes of the world trying to screw you over, and makes all the debt go away once you've paid it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Dystopia: Bend over, or else be bent over.

[Tanegar]

Actually with in debt your debt has 10% compound interest every month. So once your principle is paid off you only have to pay your loan shark nothing every month so why would you waste the karma to get rid of it? Just leave it sad and ignored on your sheet.

You're gonna have to walk me through that. As I currently understand it:
1) Character takes 30BP worth of In Debt, gains 30,000 nuyen.
2) After one month, character owes 33,000 nuyen (30,000 * 1.1).
3) Character pays off principal. Character now owes 3,000 nuyen.
4) Another month passes. Character now owes 3,300 nuyen (3,000 * 1.1).

You can extend this sequence for however long it takes to pay off the principal. Bottom line is, you have to pay both the principal and the interest. If you only pay off the principal, you're still In Debt.

[Shortstraw]

Sorry was using the term a bit loosely to mean simply "the amount I owe" rather than the original borrowing.

[Stingray]

You're gonna have to walk me through that. As I currently understand it:
1) Character takes 30BP worth of In Debt, gains 30,000 nuyen.
2) After one month, character owes 33,000 nuyen (30,000 * 1.1).
3) Character pays off principal. Character now owes 3,000 nuyen.
4) Another month passes. Character now owes 3,300 nuyen (3,000 * 1.1).

You can extend this sequence for however long it takes to pay off the principal. Bottom line is, you have to pay both the principal and the interest. If you only pay off the principal, you're still In Debt.

..no..u take 30 bp worth of debt, u own 30 000+ 15 000 = 45 000 y
monthly " handling cost" is 4500 Y.
u must pay at least that or collectors are coming
(IMO) getting rid of debt u must pay 45 000 + 4500 = 49 500 and 60 karma..

[Tanegar]

OK, I missed the line about the additional 50%.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

I houseruled In Debt and Day Job to be a 0 BP quality, regardless of the amount taken.

[Stingray]

..personally i would forget taking in-debt-quality and taking Born Rich-quality and getting money there. instead...
if really needed to take in-debt, only 5 bp worth is maximum...

[O'Ryan]

Like I said earlier in the thread though, main reason I am considering ruling by the "no karma spent" way is because of the most vocal about paying the karma and how big of buttheads they have been about it in other discussions on the matter.

You have made it abundantly clear that in the past people have said mean things to you. It appears that in this particular conversation people are trying to be civil and talk about their reasonings - are you trying to incite conflict? What are you reasons for saying it costs no karma to get rid of negative qualities, other than that you are being contrary?


I think Glyph has said it best. There are arguments both ways, but so long as you're consistent and logical about it everyone will continue to have fun and be satisfied.

(Of course if you don't do it my way you're still wrong. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )