How do you deal with forbidden cyberware?, If your character has forbidden/restricted stuff implanted Options

[crazyconscript]

I may be backtracking a bit here, but if there is NO instance in which Forbidden is legal, then there end up being a few problems....first example I can thing of for Cyberware being bone lacing. The Watchman Cybersuite includes Bone-Lacing (F), but is marketed for security teams who are legal and who serve law-abiding clients. Surely the employing company has dispensation to allow its employees to be implanted with this stuff?
My basic understanding is that Forbidden is not so much "ALWAYS-ILLEGAL" but more "ALWAYS-ILLEGAL FOR CIVILIANS". Ruleswise I know there is nothing stopping a PC having his Fake SIN be "Bob the AresFirewatch SWAT guy", with a few licenses to back it up. But, if it was illegal for anyone to use F-rated tech even in the course of their jobs then why would it still be developed/sold outside of the underworld? I mean, your average grunt in the army would be breaking the law by firing his mil-spec weapons if it wasnt a special dispensation issued to the army. In my head that extends to Security Contractors with things like Bone Lacing or similar, and CorpSec HTR teams.

Of course, that doesnt take into account the Corp's having their own versions of what is forbidden (like the previous mentions of drug availability)

But what I am trying to get at is that while getting a carry permit (real or fake) for that Ares Predator, or making it legal to walk around with that Dermal Plating is perfectly within the realms of possibility for an individual, getting F-rating licenses requires corporate clout that is above the level of capability of most individuals. I'm not saying that there isnt the possibility of hacking into LoneStar's HTR personnel database and forging yourself legality by making a fake employee with those allowances, but it should be hard and is not covered by the rules as RAW. Of course, if an employee exploits his Forbidden ware outside of company time, I imagine they are on their own (and possibly facing BIG penalties imposed by their employee contract in addition to legal action). And in my imagination any "activation-style" F-ware would have safety's installed to prevent their use off-hours (cyber-guns being disabled at the end of the shift for example)

I apologise if I am re-hashing points that have already been made, I may have lost track of a few of the things said earlier along the way and just wanted to give my two cents

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No Worries, crazyconscript. That was the entire gist of my previous comment chain. If an organization hasa permission to use Forbidden tech, there is nothing stopping those who can arrange to have papers showing they are part of that organization from having that tech. In this case, it is entirely supported (game wise) by purchasing the correct licenses and having either a SIN (Fake) or other Licensing (Also Fake, Obvioulsy) showing that you are part of that organization. They just better be high quality, or they are going to be seen through, and then you are caught. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

if illegal meant always illegal, all the time, then it would also mean:
nobody makes this, because making this is illegal.
selling this is illegal.
owning this is illegal.
so no money to be made from it. let's forget about that.
it has to be legal to be owned and used by some people, else it would not exist.

drugs are completely different in that regard.

[Epicedion]

For the most part, Forbidden gear just means you can't acquire a permit to have/operate/carry in, say, Downtown Seattle. A ground-to-air missile launcher might be Forbidden, but it doesn't mean no one can have one. Corporate security could have them (on their own extraterritorial corporate holdings). Lone Star / Knight Errant might have special dispensation to have them, but no one officer is going to have a permit for it, so he can't just lug it around (and thus if you were lugging it around you'd get picked up even with Lone Star/KE credentials) outside of an approved tactical operation.

Some of the Forbidden cyberware, like apparently some bone lacing (though I disagree with that one on its face due to the medical utility of the stuff), is Forbidden -- and what that really means is that you can't find a legal body shop to install it and you'll get charged if Lone Star runs the millimeter scanner over you and picks it up.

One thing to remember is that Shadowrun is a balkanized society -- Red Samurai don't wander the streets of Seattle that much even on their off hours, so it's unlikely the corp cares about obeying Seattle restrictions on implanted 'ware. They just don't spend time in the UCAS. If a Red Samurai is in town and causes enough problems to get scanned and arrested, he's not going to flash a permit to get out of it -- Lone Star is going to call his boss and it's going to get taken care of. And then the Samurai will probably have to fall on his sword.

Also, it's not illegal if you don't get caught. A corp hit squad with a ton of Forbidden gear is going to use plausibly deniable assets and have just as much incentive to take out a Lone Star response as a runner team would.

This is where I really like the legality codes from SR3, which outline the penalties for all gear. For a lot of things, possession of a restricted/illegal item is just a fine and a trip through the Lone Star database (maybe getting a criminal file or SIN). The bone lacing might get you fined and flagged, but not jailed.

[crazyconscript]

I have never actually played 3rd ed, but one thing I really like was the "just how illegal is this?" part of all the legality listings. Sure, both that assault rifle and that knife technically require a license to carry but the "legality rating" (dont recall the exact name, was like 1-12, with 12 being almost legal and 1 being something like a rocket launcher) decided how likely anyone was to call you on your possessing X item. So a guard who saw a pistol might just shrug his shoulders and just ignore it, but the same guard who spots a fully-automatic assault rifle is almost certain to have a lot more interest, since that rating was the target number for "pressing the issue", modified by laziness/alertness/being corrupt etc

[cndblank]

Also, why spring for cybereyes and a smartgun link when a pair of goggles is just as good, but can be passed from one soldier to another? Why go with Wired 1 when you can just use auto-injectors and Jazz? Datajacks are useless... instead of 30,000 for that soldier package, you can do a couple shots of Jazz and some smartgoggles for, what, 500? A thousand tops?

Much better use of funding.

Because cybereyes and a smartgun link (plus a data jack) are available and functioning 100 percent of the time.
No fumbling to put them on. Totally immune to catching a low hanging branch or being knocked askew by an explosion.
And they are much more immune to environmental conditions and harder to sabotage.
Plus the soldier would be mostly immune to dust and glare which would be a big help in combat conditions.
Finally since they soldier would be using it 100% of the time, he would be a lot more familiar with enhanced visions.

A data jack and some sort of image link would be almost mandatory. Once you've paid for that you might as will give the soldier a full set of cybereye enhancements and a smart link.


What you are suggesting is what I expect a AA corp would do for it's basic security. Someone who is nine to five and would be involved in a major offensive that could last months.

I mean look at what the military spends now on equipment. I'm sure with the Mega Corps most militaries are a lot smaller, but they wouldn't be going away.

[cndblank]

Wrong... drug costs are cheap as all get out... your stock basic grade PBI has to compete with things like a doberman drone in terms of cost.

Remember grunts are cheap... especially when dealing with soviet doctrine type stuff. Hopping them up with combat drugs now and then isn't going to get them hooked... and if you burnout 1 or 2 now and then.. there's tons of sinless who'd jump at the chance for 3 squares a day and a bunk.


Cyberware if installed can be removed easily as well... secondhand Wired Ref 1 anyone? Yeah it leaves an essence hole... but it does save on costs.

Though folks with continuing military relation might be a nice touch... but that'll probably only be for senior enlisted and officers.

Look what happened to the Soviet Union.


Soldiers in the future will need to be more technical not less.

And if you remove cyberware you have to pay for recovery and rehab.

[cndblank]

Mostly because you said the companies will be trying to recruit them. The military may have some great enlistment bonuses but any company can beat the pants off of them if they want to recruit you. Therefor, the recruits will be sniped by the companies after 1 term. It happens a lot in the U.S. right now, and all you get is training.

Which is why it would likely take a much longer reenlistment term and an ironclad contract to get to the good stuff installed.
Plus leave before your term is done (unless honorably discharged) and they would likely pull the cyberware to make an example.

The first enlistment you use to see who are the best prospects for long term service and then you offer them a major ware package and additional training to reenlist for 8 year or so.
By the time they finish their second enlistment, the ware will be almost 10 years old. You could then offer an updated and expanded package to reenlist for another 8 years.
That would be 20 year of service at that point.

Corps may rule the roost but they have mutually agreed to set it up where it is hard to break contracts or run off with cyberware that you don't fully own.
And illegally poaching even skilled personal from a country they are doing business in before they have legally finish their enlistment/contract would not be worth it.

[Manunancy]

Corps may rule the roost but they have mutually agreed to set it up where it is hard to break contracts or run off with cyberware that you don't fully own.
And illegally poaching even skilled personal from a country they are doing business in before they have legally finish their enlistment/contract would not be worth it.

With the amount of extractions, sabotage and other shadowruny stuff the corps pull out against each other, I don't think they have such agrreement. In my opinion, it's more that basically soldiers aren't worth that much and usually have loyalty stuffed through their brains, which means they're generaly not worth the trouble. And removing soldeirs who runs out can be dropped on the governement's plate at low cost by tarring them with the 'drugged up murederhobo crazy vet' brush.

[Falconer]

No Worries, crazyconscript. That was the entire gist of my previous comment chain. If an organization hasa permission to use Forbidden tech, there is nothing stopping those who can arrange to have papers showing they are part of that organization from having that tech. In this case, it is entirely supported (game wise) by purchasing the correct licenses and having either a SIN (Fake) or other Licensing (Also Fake, Obvioulsy) showing that you are part of that organization. They just better be high quality, or they are going to be seen through, and then you are caught. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Not right.

They'll have access to that equipment but only on the corps turf.

They step off the corp turf and their extraterritoriality doesn't protect them any more.

Even more to the point... corp sec units will have corp SINs and the equivalent of some kind of police badge. Which isn't going to be useful again off that corps turf. "F" means you're not getting a fake permit for it because it's not licensed.


About the only people carting it around normal areas will be security people on duty such as cops.

If you go around trying to impersonate a lone star officer... we'll just have to see how far that gets you. Especially if you don't have a ton invested in things like their internal procedures as well as a flock of contacts inside the 'star willing to cover for you when someone from another section starts ringing bells to see if you're really legit.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Not right.

They'll have access to that equipment but only on the corps turf.

They step off the corp turf and their extraterritoriality doesn't protect them any more.

Even more to the point... corp sec units will have corp SINs and the equivalent of some kind of police badge. Which isn't going to be useful again off that corps turf. "F" means you're not getting a fake permit for it because it's not licensed.


About the only people carting it around normal areas will be security people on duty such as cops.

If you go around trying to impersonate a lone star officer... we'll just have to see how far that gets you. Especially if you don't have a ton invested in things like their internal procedures as well as a flock of contacts inside the 'star willing to cover for you when someone from another section starts ringing bells to see if you're really legit.

Depends... If My credentials show me as a Knight Errant HRT guy, I can have the stuff transporting to my Doss (as it is highly unlikely they operate on you to add/remove cyberware at the start/end of your shift); and since they have the city contract, well, I can go anywhere except Corp Territory without an invite. There is a reason that Security/Cop Personnel are good choices to emulate. *shrug*

You can do it, it just takes you being creative.

Your example of the Lone Star guy is a good one. If you are posing as such, you likely have the backing (Contacts and whatnot) to pull it off. If not, yeah, you are likely to get caught at it eventually. *shrug*